So Some guy in My town got arrested

[Dosenmais 10]

In Europe people collect all weapons no weapon law If You Have Money Be A Tank Simple :)

What kind of Mambo-Jambo do you talking about? :rolleyes:

[Baff1 0]

If you think you will have to kill someone in the near future to avoid being murdered, you are insecure period.

It is the feeling of insecurity, that a gun addresses.

I am willing to have a deadly gun battle in the middle of the night, I don't however expect to.

It's called deterence.

Being better armed than a potential aggressor allows you to avoid situations in which you will have to kill anyone. Or to dominate any such encounter to the extent that your aggressor must surrender or retreat without giving battle.

Weakness invites attack. Strength deters it.

If a person feels that entering your home bent on villainy is likely to result in his death, he is less likely to invade your home in the first place. If you are pointing a gun at him, he is likely to attempt to resolve the confrontation through violent means.

The onus is not on me to avoid violent confrontation with invaders in my home, it is on those criminals that invade my home to avoid violent confrontation with me, (by not invading my home).

The onus on me is to be willing and capable to provide violent confrontation should someone wish to precipitate it upon me.

The onus on me is not to go round to other peoples homes and break into them in the middle of the night causing them to live in fear/move house/buy a dog/bar their windows/install alarms/sleep with guns under their pillows.

Criminals aren't victims. You should not seek to avoid violent confrontation with them at all. You should seek to stand your ground. Fight your corner and do the right thing.

If I leave my door open, I am not inviting people to come inside my house and attack me. If I do not have a violent dog, I am not inviting people into my house to attack me. If I have no bars on my windows, I am not inviting people into my house to attack me. If I have no lock on my gun, I am not inviting people into my house to attack me.

So if they come in and they die there. Tough shit. I didn't break into their house. I didn't encourage anything. A villain did something bad and placed himself and others in danger when he should not have done so.

Criminals are not victims and should not be treated as such. They are the aggressors. They are the ones who provoke violent confrontation. NOT, their victims.

It is utterly low for good people to be made to feel that they have to turn their houses into Castle Colditz or be the guilty party if they become a victim of crime and attempt to defend themselves.

You have the right to defend yourself.

If you are the man of the house, it is your duty to those you love to make sure you also have the capability.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Baff1

[binkster 0]

You guys are totally, completely nuts.

You think that someone will break into your house to steal something will sneak into your room to kill you at random? You think a killer will try to sneak into your house after an audible alarm goes of, signalling the police instantaneously? You think it's too difficult to unlock a trigger lock, but you're willing to have a deadly gun battle in the middle of the night? What ridiculousness.

I can see having a gun in a dangerous area as the last- the very last- resort of self defence. A gun is not a security measure, it is a measure of self defence. You should be avoiding a self defence scenario at all costs. Barred windows, a proper security system, dogs, etc. are all measures that avoid being put in the position of having to kill or be killed in the first place. This supposition that you are more secure because you have a loaded handgun under your pillow is perfect fantasy. If you think you will have to kill someone in the near future to avoid being murdered, you are insecure period.

I sleep with a M4 type AR-15 under my bed. I do have children so I keep the 30 round magazine hidden under my dressor 3 feet away from the rifle.

Now before you think im nuts or crazy you need to understand my AR15 is legal and is not an automatic. I love going to the range and firing it. I found a site that sales 1000 rounds for around 190 USD. "Made in Russia" lol I have had a few jams but 0 jams with american ammuntion. You get what you pay for....

One day ammunition maybe be hard to find or the world can go crazy and i may need to protect my family and property.

I feel sorry for the person that breaks into my house. I dont care what I would be charged with but they will not leave alive.

Now all the measures you said to take...

Bars on windows..... What if there was a fire?

Alarm System........ Im not going to pay a monthly fee when it would take at least 10 min for the police to get there.

Dogs... Im not going there

Ar15

My next investment will be the Bushmaster ACR again.

[dmarkwick 261]

You guys are totally, completely nuts.

You think that someone will break into your house to steal something will sneak into your room to kill you at random? You think a killer will try to sneak into your house after an audible alarm goes of, signalling the police instantaneously? You think it's too difficult to unlock a trigger lock, but you're willing to have a deadly gun battle in the middle of the night? What ridiculousness.

I can see having a gun in a dangerous area as the last- the very last- resort of self defence. A gun is not a security measure, it is a measure of self defence. You should be avoiding a self defence scenario at all costs. Barred windows, a proper security system, dogs, etc. are all measures that avoid being put in the position of having to kill or be killed in the first place. This supposition that you are more secure because you have a loaded handgun under your pillow is perfect fantasy. If you think you will have to kill someone in the near future to avoid being murdered, you are insecure period.

Been through this lots of times :) it's simply a culture thing, no need to try & understand it. In Europe, the gun is a symbol of oppression, in the US, a gun is a symbol of freedom. Simple as that :)

[HateDread 13]

I sleep with a M4 type AR-15 under my bed. I do have children so I keep the 30 round magazine hidden under my dressor 3 feet away from the rifle.

Now before you think im nuts or crazy you need to understand my AR15 is legal and is not an automatic. I love going to the range and firing it. I found a site that sales 1000 rounds for around 190 USD. "Made in Russia" lol I have had a few jams but 0 jams with american ammuntion. You get what you pay for....

One day ammunition maybe be hard to find or the world can go crazy and i may need to protect my family and property.

I feel sorry for the person that breaks into my house. I dont care what I would be charged with but they will not leave alive.

Now all the measures you said to take...

Bars on windows..... What if there was a fire?

Alarm System........ Im not going to pay a monthly fee when it would take at least 10 min for the police to get there.

Dogs... Im not going there

Ar15

My next investment will be the Bushmaster ACR again.

If they were legal here in Australia, I'd be doing the same bloody thing!

I may need to defend myself and my loved ones in the near, or distant, future, so I need weapons. The world is a shitty place, and will only get shittier.

What if food becomes scarce and people go crazy as a result? (Happened during a gas-pipeline explosion in a city in Australia - the lack of hot water almost turned into riots).

I need to be prepared.

[Dosenmais 10]

Now before you think im nuts or crazy you need to understand my AR15 is legal and is not an automatic.

I don't think this argument will working on people that calling you nuts.

Dosn't matter for them what kind of weapon it is.

it's simply a culture thing, no need to try & understand it.

No, its not a "culture thing". The Gun is simple a tool. Its a tool for the citizens to protect the republic. In rome 2000 years ago it has the same reason.

Its the tool for the citizens to protect not just they, its protect the public security and liberty like Patrick Henry said in virginia 1766.

The Gun is to enforce checks and balances against the gouvernment, and that is what the socialism loving dumbing down Europeans don't get, because the tyrannic estheblisment in Europa was always stronger than in the USA.

Tyranns will do EVERYTHING go get or stay in power, so its on the good people to protect themself and the others against these crooks. And what to the good people with the very evil people? They kill them. There is no debate with an Stalin, there is no Debate with Kim Jong Sickhead, Tyranns must die.

The Romans say the same. If there is a dictator, and in roman law the dictator must end his state as dictator in way with an martial law or an emergency after a half year, he's a man of dead. What means he must gone by all means.

Before hundret of years or today, tyranny is always the same.

Hey, what would happen if the senators bring Julius Caesar an petition bill instead of Daggers?

And by the way. Many gun murders in the USA are done by criminals that kill other criminals. Hand nothing to do with citizens.

[dmarkwick 261]

No, its not a "culture thing".

that is what the socialism loving dumbing down Europeans don't get, because the tyrannic estheblisment in Europa was always stronger than in the USA.

Thought I might try to clarify what cultural means using your own words :)

[max power 21]

Regarding deterrence:

It's not a deterrent unless people know you have it. Unless you're parading around with your gun to be seen all day, it's not deterring anything. A sign saying you're armed might be an deterrent. Alarms, dogs, and barred windows are deterrents. Guns themselves are not deterrents, nor are they security measures, period.

Dosenmais, I don't think you're going to win any arguments calling a whole continent of people stupid in broken English. It's doing nothing for your mythos.

Regarding protecting yourself from 'tyranns': In the United States, there have been 4 presidential assassinations and numerous other attempts. Among those who were killed were Abraham Lincoln, and JFK, and those who were injured were Ronald Regan, and Theodore Roosevelt. All of these men were great men, and none of them were tyrants. I would say that guns in the hands of the populace kill or injure more great men than Tyrants in America, wouldn't you say?

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Hello again Dosenmais. Welcome back to the forums. (A bit too soon in my opinion)

Actually, it is a cultural thing. You even described it like that. European culture has made guns evil things. Yes, governments most likely started it, but it is culture. That, and after all the death and war that Europe has faced I can see a reason why most Europeans may dislike firearms.

Whereas the culture over here in the states is completely different. Over here guns can be obtained easily, as well as ammuniton for them. We have seen war, but have never seen war come to our own country (excluding the mexican war and the war of 1812.) However, a lot of us expect that war will eventually reach our nation, and when it does we intend to fight back. Which is why I doubt any invasion of the US could ever work. Probably 75% of houses in the South alone have atleast one weapon. I know several with complete arsenals. 40k rounds of ammo iirc, several G3s, Galils, Tavor, FALs, multiple pistols, and more. That's just one person.

Of course it could just be that we are a nation of trigger happy obese people, with a high crime rate.

Also, you shouldn't forget that it was us Americans who invented the art of sharpshooting.

"They couldn't hit a barn at this distance!" ;)

*Edit*

@Max - I'm from the south, so while it was a tragedy, the assassination of Abraham Lincon is understandable. It was perpetrated by the Confederacy, and it simply came too late to prevent the Union victory. It could also be seen as an act of revenge, or of desperation. We knew we had lost, but somebody decided we were gonna take them down with us.

As for JFK (May he rest in peace) we all know that was a communist plot, and that the FBI helped them pull it off. :p

Edited December 27, 2010 by Darkhorse 1-6

[Maddmatt 1]

Alarm System........ Im not going to pay a monthly fee when it would take at least 10 min for the police to get there.

Dogs... Im not going there

Ar15

My next investment will be the Bushmaster ACR again.

Without something to alert you to an intruder, they could get to you before you can get to your gun. That's where an alarm or dog comes in handy.

It's pretty common for robbers to end up stealing their victims' guns. Sometimes the gun just makes things worse, if you have a gun then they're much more likely to shoot at you.

I think guns are only a good idea in places where violent crime is high. And a pistol is the best choice because you can conceal it, and it's easier to get around with indoors.

I'm heading to New Zealand soon (again), and gun crime is so rare there that I think it's better to be unarmed. Even the cops there don't carry guns.

If I was staying here in South Africa I'd seriously consider getting a gun though. But a lot of the robberies and hijackings here are done by heavily armed gangs, a lone victim with a pistol doesn't have much of a chance in a situation like that.

[Dosenmais 10]

Also, you shouldn't forget that it was us Americans who invented the art of sharpshooting.

That isn't true.

It was the German Mercs who fight for and against the American Revolution. British hired them as sharpshooters. Even the word has a german origin.

We have seen war, but have never seen war come to our own country

Which Army would be so stupid to invade a country where the population is well armed? Ecept the U.S.Army(Well, i guess thats irony)

Thought I might try to clarify what cultural means using your own words

Don't confound culture with education.

Dosenmais, I don't think you're going to win any arguments calling a whole continent of people stupid in broken English. It's doing nothing for your mythos.

I guess my english is mutch better than your foreign language competence.

In the United States, there have been 4 presidential assassinations and numerous other attempts. Among those who were killed were Abraham Lincoln, and JFK, and those who were injured were Ronald Regan, and Theodore Roosevelt.

Also Garfield was killed and Jackson was attacked. Don't dare telling me about history if you don't know so less.

These Men where not attack or murdered because somebody just buy a gun and get crazy. These Men must die because some peoples would that they die. Look at Jacksons Gravestone.

And Lincoln? He established the greenback dollar.

I would say that guns in the hands of the populace kill or injure more great men than Tyrants in America, wouldn't you say?

So you will tell me that Oswald murdered Kennedy with a simple Bolt-action Rifle and the guns are the reason for all that? Don't tell me shit like that.

And by the Way, what would Kennedy do with Executive Order 11110?

Remindes me heavy on Andrew Jackson. All these Men where against the Banks! So don't blame the damn Guns for there death. These is the silliest thing i heard since a long time about that.

Hey, maybee you sould emigrate to China, where is a total Gun ban.

[vilas 477]

why people in US are so calling about freedom defending by guns, if their government is taking care about US in foreign relations

why they so much talk about something what can be called "anti gov" and ... they vote for them

i can't understand

if you vote on and on for 2 parties and you act like government is enemy and you must have gun against government

i don't understand this philosophy

you vote for them, so why you arm against them

or you have democracy only because you have guns (but also you have big banks, big owners, scandals too , like us)

in europe if we all had guns, we would have some revolutions (economic reasons i see today) but in US where almost everyone has car and house ?

in my country some people do not have clothes for winter or hot dinner every day, so there is reason to fight against the rich and corrupted government, but US ? everyone has car, house, color TV etc.

and Darkhorse said true words, in Europe gun is more symbol of crime and reason to afraid than symbol freedom

in socialism we had few time lower crime rate than nowadays (police had eye and power everywhere)

Edited December 27, 2010 by vilas

[Dosenmais 10]

i can't understand

So read Books. Read letters from Washington, Patrick Henry, Jefferson, Thomas paine. Read Plato's "Republic" and read Machiavelli's "The Prince". Maybee than you will understand

everyone has car, house, color TV etc.

*laugh* And stop watching television.

[vilas 477]

*laugh* And stop watching television.

you wanna say that you have problem to buy shoes ? you have problem to buy jacket cause you have no money for jacket, shoes or pay for electricity ?

i bought bundeswehr shoes cause they could stand 5 years for example and wearing them 5 years, cause i have no money to buy shoes every year, in my countries some people walk in 10 years old shoes or jackets

so ... ? what they must fight for ? if they have all human need to live (roof over head protecting from rain, food, wear) ?

i know people playing OFP cause have no money for PC that can handle Arma2 here in central/east europe etc.

the older i am the more i understand this american philosophy of defending against gov.

but it doesn't change fact that you have problems when guns get to hands of people who were not psychologically tested , David Coresh and such like

Edited December 27, 2010 by vilas

[Dosenmais 10]

what they must fight for ?

You ask me that?

You are polish, you sould know which people used poland as battlefield the last hundret years and betrayed your people.

And hey. There are Cities in the US that have a higher childhood mortality than many third world countries. And now people break in farms to steal food. And things will get even worse during the crisis.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Dosenmais

[vilas 477]

i am surprised

but if someone break to steal food, ... he cannot be killed, he need help (government issue)

if liberal capitalistic economy make people problem, maybe they should fight against it (banks, owners etc) ?

if man steal food - it is most sad situation :| in my country many old (retired who work all life) steal food in shops too (if old grannie has 200 euro per month and for flat must give 100 , than how to live)

in my country only half of population votes (another half see noone to vote for) , mostly we vote "against" not "for"

but in US there is big percentage of voting, so why arm against ?

[dmarkwick 261]

Don't confound culture with education.

Right. So the whole of Europe is suffering from lack of education, can't possibly be any other reason right? LOL :D

---------- Post added at 11:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------

but in US there is big percentage of voting, so why arm against ?

Heh, well the myth that is the "armed against your government" notion is easily overcome by the government seeming to do bad stuff for your own good :D

[Dosenmais 10]

but if someone break to steal food, ... he cannot be killed, he need help (government issue)

You can not count on the government. It would do nothing to help you. Even Social Security is just a excuse for more taxes.

People can help themself, but it is the government that makes laws against self-employment. Hell, in the US the Senate Bill S510 makes it illegal to grow your own food and sell it! That is 100 procent against capitalism, that is total state-directed economy and total anti-freedom.

if liberal capitalistic economy make people problem, maybe they should fight against it (banks, owners etc) ?

Banks are not capitalistic.

And what you mean with "owners"? Do you know what the russian word is for "owner". Its kulake.

[vilas 477]

You can not count on the government. It would do nothing to help you. Even Social Security is just a excuse for more taxes.

nope, free medical care, flat, social help when poverty , food - it is by state from taxes in Europe ( night hotel for homeless when they can clean, eat, sleep when it is winter) are from taxes

People can help themself, but it is the government that makes laws against self-employment. Hell, in the US the Senate Bill S510 makes it illegal to grow your own food and sell it! That is 100 procent against capitalism, that is total state-directed economy and total anti-freedom.

what ? if you have potatoes or apples you cannot sell it ? you're joking, impossible ?

i understand alcohol, meat (because of clear, hygenic, epidemiological reasons) but vegetables and fruits ?

in Poland if you have farm , you have potatoes, carrots, cucumbers, you just sell it on bazaar or to wholesaler or whatever

only meat production and some fish is controlled by hygienic inspection (cause of mad cow disease, other bacteria)

you are controlled when you make sausage , sauces (HACCP) etc. but not carrot, onion or potatoes, cucumbers, apples etc. things or even sunflower and other seeds

Banks are not capitalistic.

And what you mean with "owners"? Do you know what the russian word is for "owner". Its kulake.

how banks are not ? they work for profit

capitalism is "profits and money is god, profits over morality, only profit rulez"

by owners i mean all those "new world order", owners of banks, owners of multinational corporations etc. this all globalisation stuff etc.

Edited December 27, 2010 by vilas

[Dosenmais 10]

nope, free medical care, flat, social help when poverty , food - it is by state from taxes in Europe ( night hotel for homeless when they can clean, eat, sleep when it is winter) are from taxes

This is what i mean, when i talk about the socialism loving europaen. They had never take a look behinde the curtain.

And see whats happen in UK. The social medical system is a total mess.

And you can not choose what kind of medical you would get. What kind of food you get.

The first Step is to take your freedome of choose. When i as a employer have appointees, i must pay there medical care with high taxes, instead of giving him directly this money, that he can do it for its own.

And the night hotels for homeless are in most case run by complimentary volunteers. This is an effect of human nature, to take care if there is enough prosperity.

But bureaucrat don't create prosperity.

you're joking, impossible ?

No i'am not joking, this stuff is f****** real.

how banks are not ? they work for profit

Yeah, this is this kind of socialistic talk that is in this EUssr Propaganda spraying around. "Profit" is now equipollent with greed.

But every human will profit by. For its own or his kind, its human nature. And its okay that humans will profit, so long there is no fraud.

capitalism is "profits and money is god, profits over morality, only profit rulez"

Have you ever read a book from adam smith and what capitalism, what free market means?

They tell you, that capitalism is evil and bad and whatever, that they can bring in big socialistic gouvernment to take care of everybody. And big gouvernment gets crazy, because the gouvernment is the biggest Mafia, the biggest and ruthless Gang around.

So the free market itself has checks and balances. A cooperation can never become so big, that they can be a danger for the public. competition is a division of powers.

So let me explain. A bank this times has nothing to do with Money. Its about credit. Credit is no money, because a credit can creat by nothing. And the money we use, the Euro(well i know poland has still the sloty but EUssr will come soon to you as well) that have absolut ZERO coverage. Its to 80 Procent coverage with dollar, but the Federal Reserve Dollar is also coverage with nothing than... air.

You sould compare a Greenback Dollar with a Federal Reserve note. The Greenback has a coverage with Gold.

And who creat this money and brings it out? Its the central banks. A central bank is the foundation of Communism.

We don't live in a capitalistic system and thats the reason for many, many economical and social problems that we have.

Hey, maybee you can bring some nice 3D models out but you have less knowlege about the world out there.

by owners i mean all those "new world order", owners of banks, owners of multinational corporations etc. this all globalisation stuff etc.

So if you know about that "new world order" ideologie, than why do you still think in these "capitalism is sooo bad" pattern.

For these Gangsters, money means nothing. They have every money that they need, they own the printing press, its not about money, its about controll.

By the way, all these frauds is the reason why people sould own guns. Tyranns will try it everytime to get in controll. In the past with violance, but they understand that cheating over a long time is the better way.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Dosenmais

[dmarkwick 261]

Credit creates profit. I can't believe you talk of banks doing stuff that is for the greater good :D

You seem to have the notion, already fixed in your head, that any European who mentions the word "profit" is mentioning it in some derogative manner.

I can see the direction of this conversation :) seen it before lots of times. Arguing is like grappling with mist.

[vilas 477]

but even if we would stood at point that having gun is equal keeping democracy, than if NWO owns press, it controls minds of "mainstream"

so when mind is controlled (by for example lack of information or misleading information), guns became useless , cause noone uses them "against real evil makers"

So if you know about that "new world order" ideologie, than why do you still think in these "capitalism is sooo bad" pattern.

because in pure capitalism if someone had accident (for example lost hand), cannot work, he can die (no work, no food)

or in capitalism monopol way (because 3-4 corporation will make secret agreement on prices) is the same as in communist state

if we had 4-5 producers of for example "food", they can "agree that price will be 4 times bigger to have bigger profit" , i know it is not free market, but as i know capitalism is not equal free market

capitalism is "lack of care about weak or ill human and rule written by the rich against the poor" and free market is other situation "you sell what you produce, someone buy if he wants"

free market is a part of ideology of capitalism/liberalism, just like magazine is part of gun

but having magazine with rounds you won't shoot someone without barrel, trigger

Edited December 27, 2010 by vilas

[mosh 0]

Why do all threads about guns here have to be about defending the homeland, rebelling against the government, killing each other, etc... and then turn into a discussion of American policies?

I own many guns... just simply because I like to shoot them.

I respect everyone's' opinions on the US, but am very glad most of you live far away and have no say in what we do over here... and for some of you, you have absolutely no clue what goes on over here either. And you look foolish trying to sound like you do. I can blindly talk about your countries policies, from something I learned on tv, and look just as stupid too.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just all the foreign US experts...

[vilas 477]

how can we know from other things than media (TV, net) ?

;)

and sory, but US foreign politics touches also us, citizens 10 000 miles away

we not live in US, but US politics /politicians influence not only life (or death) or Iraqi citizens, but also me, cause many bilions Zlotys are spent to war... now they raise tax, they say they must fire some clerks , take money from hospitals, cause army need it to fight for US war

if US politics was touching only US citizens i would not touch it (like many other countries politics not touch me at all)

if my taxes go on Iraq, it touches me too (many people are against but government decided to join, politicians BEFORE elections say "we move troops out" and AFTER election "we are allie of US, we must fulfil our duty to suport US" )

[mosh 0]

Yes I know vilas... and I'm sorry too. I do realize our policies touch the rest of the world. And as you said a few posts ago, I also vote against, not for politicians. I would like to see some changes, as most Americans would...

I don't have an answer. I generally stay out of political discussions (as well as religion) because they usually end up with insults. I don't want that with anyone here. We all have a common interest of BIS games, and I try to keep it at that.

I just get a little defensive, as we all do, when it comes our country... especially when my gun rights are discussed.

Carry on...