Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

[PuFu 4600]

Certainly models have commercial worth, but to say they are the only thing that does is unbelievably arrogant.

I never said that. I did say that models have a certain commercial worth. [DOT] That is without any fancy modifications.

Sound samples, and code both can be stolen just a easily as models and adapted to other products that can be sold. Just because a system is written in the house language does not mean it cannot be translated and re-used for another software engine. Doing so is no different from "tracing" a model - it's theft unless the author blesses that action.

True. Sounds samples (and that is something i somehow missed from the equation) goes under the same category as models = easily moved to any other 3rd party use without much work needed. I am uncertain of scripts, or configs, especially since functions, classes and values are specific to BI games. I think that saying A or B moved a script to another platform is a bit far-fetched, even though i understand that the structure could be copied.

I can only speak of what i have have seen myself, what i am aware of, and what i am accustomed with.

Most of us are aware of models being swiped. Recently there may have been a similar situation with a popular sound mod. I've had software published and modified by a software group long after I repeatedly demanded my code be removed from their releases. Theft in any form sucks.

That is what this is about.

But you were advocating the open source that BI delivers with having most of the content available, then you come and say: hey, you know what, theft is bad (which it is).

• Are coders relevant to this discussion? Yes, along with all the other developer specialities.
  
• Are those that advocate open source stupid or thieves? No, most understand copyright law and respect it.
  
• Are the model makers justified in being pissed? Yes, but they are not deserving of any status better or worse than the rest of us.
  

BIS could help a lot in protecting 3rd-party IP, but whatever they do has to apply to everyone fairly.

Again, this somehow turned into some sort of competition between different type of work for you, which is neither the scope of this thread, nor my/or anyone else intention.

but i dont see whats the big problem poking around in others addons for solution. not stealing/cloing anything. but merly looking for a solution.

and therby giving you some credits for providing a "passive" solution.

There is no real problem per say, but it could lead to bad blood sometimes. But you need to agree that one should be allowed to CHOOSE if his work is "pokable" or not.

Besides, as Stalker said, most of the time it slows the learning curve (especially for the new ones) since they'll be hit with a block of information, from which they actually need only 2 lines or so.

well. to me locking pbo's seams selfish. not letting others gain experiance from anothers addon with out becomeing a letterfriend.

Selfish is when you are using other ppl work without prior approval for your own interests.

About the learning process i keep hearing about:

It is inevitable that somewhere on the way of creating some content for BI games, you will hit some issues. We all did. The easiest way would be to ASK about it, and in most cases you will get an answer.

I have learned a lot more by cooperating with different ppl on those boards. More than i could have ever learned from pooking(as you say) in other ppl addons.

There are a lot of willing people who would gladly help out around here (you don't need to be their letterfriend to get some help), a lot of live chats where you can ask anything you want (ofpec, dev-heaven etc). All it is needed is a bit of will (i for once have that skype button next to my avatar for this particular reason).

...

Couldn't have said it better

Edited October 29, 2010 by PuFu

[rksl-rock 1301]

...but i dont see whats the big problem poking around in others addons for solution. not stealing/cloing anything. but merly looking for a solution.

and therby giving you some credits for providing a "passive" solution.

Well some people have gotten in a lot of trouble for using a "passive solution". Most people won't mind if you use their addons as "hints". But this forum is littered with disputes because people assumed it was ok to "dip into an addon". Admittedly it usually centres around bits of custom code but it does highlight the reason why so many people are getting protective of their addons. But really it just boils down to simple manners.

well. to me locking pbo's seams selfish. not letting others gain experiance from anothers addon with out becomeing a letterfriend.

You see i don't understand why you are so reluctant to talk to people. When I started with OFP I tried looking at examples and they made very little sense to me. It was only when someone explained them to me anything made sense. I used some of the tut's people had written and that helped far more than the samples. By the time I was comfortable porting my own models into OFP I didn't even look at other people's source. I just asked around my group of friends, if they didn't know I posted on the forums. And in the process made quite a lot of new friends. I have over 200 people from this community on my MSN and I've asked for and given help to all of them at some point. Its the people that make the community not the addons.

If you aren't making friends in this community then you are missing out a huge part of the fun. I regularly work and play with people all of the world. Without them I doubt I'd still be modding.

Anyway this is a long winded way of saying, locking the addons won't change anything in my opinion. It just means a reduction in accusations of theft and a probable/logical rise in community cooperation.

if bis where to provide some protection. i hope its not on the pbos. but the p3d. script. configs should always be able to depbo.

textures also for that mattere. it cant be used on any other models since its uvmaped for that spesific model

That's the problem, if you protect one aspect its got to be everything else. As you can see in this thread there are people saying that its not fair if only models are protected. Scripts (as im sure you know, can often take as long if not longer than models to develop and test) are just as vulnerable to theft - ok so they can't be sold in the same way as models - but they are often co-opted/borrowed/used without consent so deserve protection too. Then if you are protecting models and scripts, what about configs and textures etc. The easiest and more elegant solution is to lock the PBO.

That way everyone's work is secure and no one can complain. And if you want to know something just ask the author. It is a pretty friendly community after all.

Edited October 29, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[5133p39 14]

BIS managed to protect the DLC packs and they are still readable ingame.

To be honest i just don't seewhy you lot are so against protection. You all talk like you want an open source license but all you talk about is raiding other people's addons for your own benefit. Its just seems rather selfish to me.

BIS didn't manged to protect the DLC packs, they only managed to make it harder to get to the content inside them.

Yes, it is enough to stop most of the evildoers, but not all of them.

To be honest, i am not entirely against similar protection, i only worry about the negative side effects it could have

(like the need to ask addon creator to send you the unprotected version when you want to poke around in it, as somebody already wrote).

"all you talk about is raiding other people's addons for your own benefit"

I do not think "raiding" is the word you should use, but i understand your point of view, so i don't take it personaly :-)

Is there ANYONE who could truly say he didn't open any addon/script to look how something is done?

And is that something bad? You would really call that "raiding"?

I don't create models, but even if i did, i wouldn't mind even slightly if ANYONE would use my work to make other addons,

after all, that would be the reason i would create any addons - to add something to the game - and if somebody takes my

addon and use it to add something more then that is perfectly ok, everybody can benefit from that.

And if someone takes my addon and publish it under his name, well... it's against rules, and i am not defending such actions,

but it wouldn't do any damage to me, so i wouldn't care anyway.

I doubt you would find a single addon or script which does not benefit from some another (at least as an inspiration),

and we should be grateful for this, because this is more productive way than trying to make out everything by yourself,

resulting in more addons/scripts to work with and maybe also quicker releases.

Before somebody accuses me of being a "komunist" or that i do not know what i am talking about,

let me say that in RL i usualy live on as a freelancer SW developer, sometimes i make SW, sometimes

i devise only paper algorithms, etc., and i don't like it when somebody copies my work without my

consent and only to make profit from it, but i never felt the need of trying to protect it

- because i think in the large scheme of things, it wouldn't do good to anyone.

Anyway, you reminded me about one thing - some kind of protection is already available, the one BIS uses to

protect their DLCs, so then my argument about waste of time to develop such protection is false, because i guess

BIS could give the same means of protection to the community, but sadly it just won't stop the thefts anyway.

I understand all the arguments about people stealing and publishing models on turbosquid, but there surely is one

thing i do not understand - the arguments about fame and pride as somebody wrote.

How small man one must be, to value this "fame" so much to feel the need of "locking" his addons?

What is the point? What do you get for your fame? Does it cure illness? Does it feed your family?

Get a life :-)

[Binkowski 26]

dude, this thread has got some novel replies. reminds me of vilas, except you know, i can actually understand these ones.

[Fox '09 14]

i wonder what you can do to protect it. It's not like BAF's encryption/protection stopped it from being 'cracked open'.

in my opinion i don't mind someone digging through my addon until they post they did or used an element from it without my permission. I just don't have the time to worry about that stuff. it's not really annoying me if i don't think about it.

On the other hand there are some people who prefer to have their stuff unreachable by most people, i understand that, but that's never a guarantee your addon will be 'safe'.

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

BIS never made a .pbo extracting tool so why would they make an option to locked them? Lock them from what? Isn't the extracting tools made by the user's? I could be wrong i dunno. Like dude said the bin'ed files are for game performance not security of the addon. Even if the .pbos where to be encrypted by some type of software im sure it will be decrypted in time. Even with a hardware dongle the text files are probably safe but the models will still able to be extracted with those 3d ripper tools that are out there.

[max power 21]

Yeah, people can just break your door down, so why lock it at all?

I've been trying to think of a way to address the question posed in the topic title, but the wording is very tricky. What does necessary mean? Does it mean to ask if BIS has an obligation? Or perhaps if only they have the power to reduce copyright infringement in the community? Something else?

Edited October 29, 2010 by Max Power

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

My god... After reading the first page I don't know why any addon makers in the community keep doing it! Why are you guys afraid of people protecting their work? All I see when people say "No! We need to learn from your work!" is a bunch of whiny, ungrateful people, afraid that they won't be able to crack open whatever model they want, whenever they want. If an addon maker could lock his P3D files, dozens more addons would probably be available right now. It would allow the addon makers who Model for a living to use their copyrighted, expensive models that they already have completed, for addons. Instead of having to create a new version from scratch and then eventually quitting because it's not worth it because somebody will just rip the model out and sell it as their own. Imagine the people who create addons for personal use and never release publicly. If they could lock their P3Ds they wouldn't have to worry about them being ripped.

Why anything get's released at all around here is beyond me. It's definitely not because of the community.

[max power 21]

I wonder what the demographics are of people of one opinion vs. the other... For or against protection. I wonder how many artists, mission makers, veterans, newbies, non-addon makers, independent content makers, mod-team members, etc hold one opinion vs. the other. It would be an interesting study!

[nuxil 2]

All I see when people say "No! We need to learn from your work!" is a bunch of whiny, ungrateful people, afraid that they won't be able to crack open whatever model they want, whenever they want

So we a bunch of whiny, ungrateful people now? just because we have another opinion than you do.?

it not just all about models you know. it beeing able to peek inside a pbo file or not.

pbo's may contain only scripts or only configs aswell.

looking at somoene elses work may give you insperation for your own work.

why are you so affraid of letting people look inside the pbo? i dont make official addons. that because i mainly make addons for my dedicate server.

but hell. i think i got like 500 scripts laying around i wrote. if there would be any meaning putting them in a script pack and releasing them. i would and i couldnt care less if someone took a look at my script. espesialy if i knew it would help them making something better. as long as i would be credited.

It would allow the addon makers who Model for a living to use their copyrighted

i dont know if you knew. but. modelers have copyright on there model,

it doesnt matter if the pbo is locked or not.

the problem is thouse who steal and sell the model.

i can understand ther fusrtation when that happens. it cant be fun at all.

getting stolen from is never fun.

Why anything get's released at all around here is beyond me. It's definitely not because of the community.

because we all have the same passion for the same game ?

also what other community has such a dedicated core fanbase as bis do?

i can only think of a few ones.

i have spent countless houers on this forum alltho im not a post whore.but i tend to help out people in the scriping section now and then. and beeing called a whiny, ungrateful person i kinda find offencive just because i have another opinion than you do.

[xxbbcc 6]

So we a bunch of whiny, ungrateful people now? just because we have another opinion than you do.?

Good I didn't answer, I would've used a lot stronger language than you did.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

"No! We need to learn from your work!"

How did you learn to read? By reading what other people wrote?

How is that a bad thing?

If an addon maker could lock his P3D files, dozens more addons would probably be available right now...

I would argue that would work both ways. If people cant learn from anywhere there would be less addons out, but just like your statement I dont have any numbers on that to back up my theory.

Why anything get's released at all around here is beyond me. It's definitely not because of the community.

Thats easy, because people love the game and to some I would think making mods is a game in it self. I would bet some would rather build a model for a game they like than one they dont really care about. I think thats the reason many people who work as professional 3d model artists also make mods on some of their free time.

[gossamersolid 155]

Wow this thread got filled with a lot of retarted posts pretty quickly, and actually got offtopic.

@All the Modelers: Make your own thread about better protecting model files, this thread is about .pbo protection in general.

After reading these posts, I've thought of something to say:

No matter what form of protection gets released, it will be broken pretty quickly, if not right away. There will always be people out there hellbent on breaking through any type of copy protection/DRM. If you are that afraid that your model is going to get stolen, stop developing for this game... you know the risks and you know there are people out there that will try to steal your stuff.

It's really a shame that some people's models have appeared on turbosquid, but shit happens. Deal with it or stop developing because if you think stealing is bad here, look at the game market where whole games are pirated.

[Zipper5 74]

My god... After reading the first page I don't know why any addon makers in the community keep doing it! Why are you guys afraid of people protecting their work? All I see when people say "No! We need to learn from your work!" is a bunch of whiny, ungrateful people, afraid that they won't be able to crack open whatever model they want, whenever they want.

You addon-makers need to stop saying this...

I would think that if I were to view everyone who criticized my opinion as "whiny and ungrateful", they would stop using what I produce.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Zipper5

[Evil_Echo 11]

Pufu:

There is nothing inconsistant in my statements. I sympathize with those that have suffered theft because I've been there myself. However I don't see the solutions currently being discussed as appropriate nor viable.

GossamerS:

I'd love to see turbosquid and related sites shut down for being the den of thieves that they are. But right now they are on-line and sadly we all have to deal with that. You're correct about protection cracks, something else would need to be done to reduce theft.

All:

Let's not start hurling insults at each other. This is definitely a touchy subject that can stir up passionate opinions - but we are all capable of double-checking our wording before hitting the post button.

One thing that would help both sides. Posting more information on the BI wiki, etc. to fill in the gaps. That way the new folks can learn without resorting to tearing apart PBOs in the first place.

[max power 21]

Is there ANYONE who could truly say he didn't open any addon/script to look how something is done?

I have never looked into anyone else's work ever to look how it was done. I used the example files provided by BIS, Planck's (RIP) help, OFPEC, and the BIKI and NOTHING ELSE, period. I am not the most productive modder, but in my spare time I have managed to publish one addon with CWR and have a few more ready for CWR 2, plus a few more I could release on my own.

I don't create models, but even if i did, i wouldn't mind even slightly if ANYONE would use my work to make other addons,

after all, that would be the reason i would create any addons - to add something to the game - and if somebody takes my

addon and use it to add something more then that is perfectly ok, everybody can benefit from that.

Okay, next time you spend six months of most of your spare time on a project and then see it up for sale from someone else, you tell me how you feel. Or maybe someone else has a part or a whole of your hard work in their addon and they didn't even mention you. Maybe you would feel differently.

You addon-makers need to stop saying this...

I would think that if I were to view everyone who criticized my opinion as "whiny and ungrateful", they would stop using what I produce.

The problem is that noone cares what anyone else's opinion is. Otherwise, licenses would be all the protection anyone needs.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

To be clear, I don't believe that anybody who has a different opinion than mine is whiny or ungrateful. I do however believe that anybody who says outright no, it shouldn't even be an option, is whiny, ungrateful, and afraid.

I'm not saying outright yes or no, but I do firmly believe it needs to exist. If certain addonmakers wish to use it, let them. If others don't want to, it's their choice. Do not make the choice for everybody.

[Zipper5 74]

If you were to take the loss of learning material out of the equation, you then have a question of purpose. No matter how well you lock or encrypt your creations, people are going to find a way around it. That is a fact. What will you do if a new encryption or locking ability is made by BIS, but your next high quality model using these methods still appears on Turbosquid shortly afterward? Demand more be done, thus creating a never-ending cycle?

You have to look at what you're actually getting out of this. The fight against piracy and theft on the internet is one you're almost always going to lose, as sad as that might be.

[dm 9]

So because its hard, we shouldn't bother at all? Do you feel the same way about anti-cheat?

As always, we have the same camps:

1. Addon makers looking for a way to better protect their IP.

2. People who think not being able to rip apart everyones work will "destroy the community" through whatever means (Usually they say its because people will no longer be able to learn how to make stuff. But mostly its because it means they cant make their own personal tweaks to other peoples hard work :j: )

3. People who just don't give a fuck.

You REALLY REALLY REALLY do NOT need to look at anyones addons to learn how to make addons yourself. Everything you need to know is in the wiki and the sample models.

If you want to know something specific about someones addon fucking well ask them about it. Everyone that is willing to put up with the bullshit from the spoiled brats in this "community" will be more than willing to answer genuine questions from other addon makers.

[/Rant]

[Zipper5 74]

There is such a huge sense of self-entitlement coming from addon makers recently. Is there a particular reason why we do not see the same coming from mission makers, script makers, etc.? What is putting you guys above the rest of those contributing to the community?

This is just getting silly now, and I foresee a coming thread lock, just like the last 10 of these threads.

[dm 9]

Maybe because their work is not being sold by other people on other sites?

[Zipper5 74]

Well that is something you will not be able to change, no matter how hard you might try. I can imagine how frustrating that would be, but you are distributing content for free across the internet. It's basic internet knowledge that some douchebag somewhere will steal it from you no matter what you do to protect it.

[dm 9]

I really don't get how this "someone somewhere will do it, so why bother at all" mentality is prevailing?

Someone somewhere will circumvent battleye, so should we not bother with that?

Someone somewhere will be able to defeat your home security (i.e. door locks) so should you bother locking your door?

Someone somewhere will be able to hack your email account, so should you bother with a password at all?

Can you not see how stupid it sounds to say "someone somewhere will be able to do it, so we shouldn't bother at all" / "its the internet, no one cares" ?

If you add better protection, then you drastically reduce the number of assholes capable of stealing your work and selling it. That is the point.

[Zipper5 74]

I'm not saying no one cares, I'm simply stating it's completely naive to think you will ever "beat" pirates or thieves. Fight them as much as you want, but they will always be there. Just like cheaters. Go ahead and lock your stuff out but realize that once someone finds a way around it all you will have accomplished is locking out those who simply want to learn from your stuff rather than steal it. It's exactly the same conundrum as video game DRM.

[5133p39 14]

Okay, next time you spend six months of most of your spare time on a project and then see it up for sale from someone else, you tell me how you feel. Or maybe someone else has a part or a whole of your hard work in their addon and they didn't even mention you. Maybe you would feel differently.

No, i wouldn't feel differently - i already stated i don't like it and i do not defend such behaviour (selling stolen work).

But when it comes to someone (ab)using my ArmA creations (not that i created anything worth mentioning), even without giving credits (which is against rules and i am not defending that either), i couldn't care less, because that is why i am creating those things - so that people can use them.

And if you read my whole post, then you should know it happens to me from time to time in my line of work, but there is nothing you can do about it - that was my point, no matter what you do, these things will happen.

So the only question is:

is the effort to provide any protection worth the results?

And the answer seems to be:

No, because i haven't even heard about really successful protection - there is almost never any benefit for legal users, only more obstructions, and the illegal users will allways find a way to get their hands on it.

Sometimes it is worth the trouble - for example when a new game hits the market, and the protection is really hard to crack, it may initialy help with the sales, but that does not apply here.

I am not against PBO protection, i only think it's a waste of time, resulting in negative side effects, and helping noone.