Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

[Opticalsnare 12]

Models, Sounds and Textures sure, but Configs and Scripts should remain open.

[TRexian 0]

I guess we can agree that locking content is not meant for scripts and configs, stuff that is worthless outside of the Armaversum.

Models, Sounds and Textures sure, but Configs and Scripts should remain open.

I'm not willing to agree with this.

In terms of the amount of work, there is no difference.

Also, the 'abuse of the past' IMHO is not very compelling to me. For one thing, I've yet to see a community-made ArmA model pirated for any other game. Maybe it has happened, I don't know.

But, let's even assume that it HAS. Compared to the MILLIONS of legitimate uses, it is statistically close to meaningless. The current system is not broken.

The 'abuses' that I think people refer to have been when one OFP/ArmA community dev has taken stuff for use in another OFP/ArmA addon. In that respect, models/textures/configs/scripts are all in the same category.

[Mr. Charles 22]

There is one incident i know of, scroll some pages back to see the Huey from A2 in GTA 4.

http://modmygta.com/forum/index.php?topic=2083.0

Here ya go.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Mr. Charles

[TRexian 0]

That wasn't a community mod. It was the BIS model (as I understand it). :)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Guess that everybody feels a bit safer and happier if there is an option to lock his own property and creative hard work. ;)

Yeah, especially since it allows me to copy other peoples 3ds max models (that came with a clause I'm not about to follow), import it, tweak it, make new lods, add features and maps, put the protected flag on and call it 100% my own model. I'm not a modeller in Arma, but I assume there is possibility to import somehow. Sorry, model or not, that theft thing works both ways.

And what about that big gray area? You obviously can't copy another object and stay legal. But you are allowed to model based on its cage, since you can't claim right to a shape.

Example: http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1320307&postcount=122

Copy & pasted models from another game, but kept private (as it should, even though I want it badly :p). Noisify the point cloud a little, and change topology a little, and voila - your own model that is 100% your own. Wrap it up in protection, and that other game can't even check it anymore.

I understand your needs, but as I just laid out, it can be exploited too.

There is one incident i know of, scroll some pages back to see the Huey from A2 in GTA 4.

http://modmygta.com/forum/index.php?topic=2083.0

Here ya go.

As I said, it works both ways...

And in none of those cases is it even attempted to hide where it came from originally. It's wide open.

Edited October 28, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[Evil_Echo 11]

CarlG has a good point. +5 to him.

Can see the desire for model makers to "protect" their work. But why make them special? Is my work less valuable merely due to the fact it's based on hand-crafted scripts vs the result of some CAD system?

The original question was about PBO archives, not models. Any solution should be all or nothing. Otherwise this pits one part of the developer community against another.

[TRexian 0]

And, here's another question (again).

How many Arma modelers are out there sitting on hi-poly models that they won't release because there's no way to 'protect' them?

And a related question - do we miss them?

(I don't think there are very many.)

[alef 0]

It was the BIS model (as I understand it). :)

This one too: (link removed ad gently asked by pufu ...)

So it's not only the PBO/P3D that should be locked, but also make complicated for such software to analyze the running game scene graph.

This would sound nonsensical, like the attempts to protect process memory reading by other software just elevating permissions.

Or trust that network data packets with units positions can't be read between you and the server.

Trusting enemies is just a contradiction in terms.

By the way, thanks to the people in this thread, I've understood a little more about model issues I was asking myself these days.

Edited October 28, 2010 by alef
link removed.

[Defunkt 431]

Can see the desire for model makers to "protect" their work. But why make them special? Is my work less valuable merely due to the fact it's based on hand-crafted scripts vs the result of some CAD system?

Exactly, you either respect IP or you don't and those rights don't vary because of the tools used. It's for the owner alone to decide who should modify or duplicate their work and there's no legitimate basis for certain authors to be awarded more protection than others based on convenience or some potential external market (i.e. TurboSquid).

[rksl-rock 1300]

I'm not willing to agree with this.

In terms of the amount of work, there is no difference.

Also, the 'abuse of the past' IMHO is not very compelling to me. For one thing, I've yet to see a community-made ArmA model pirated for any other game. Maybe it has happened, I don't know.

But, let's even assume that it HAS. Compared to the MILLIONS of legitimate uses, it is statistically close to meaningless. The current system is not broken.

The 'abuses' that I think people refer to have been when one OFP/ArmA community dev has taken stuff for use in another OFP/ArmA addon. In that respect, models/textures/configs/scripts are all in the same category.

'I'm not willing to accept this [your statement] either'.

It happens a lot. There are tonnes of OFP community made content floating around on "free" model sites. As well as in GTA, garrys mod and a whole host of other sites. All made possible by community made tools and the oh so "fantastic" DX Rippers. You can find a lot of the ArmA1 models on Google 3D warehouse, turbosquid, cadbrowser etc. And now with T_D's contributions to the community tool chest you can steal any ArmA1/2/OA/OFPElite/VBSLite/JCOVE model in game form any publisher, BIS or community, with 2 clicks.

Now some people have used this for "educational uses", but they could have gotten the same thing and spent less time and a decent explanation by just asking the author. But others are using it to rip models for sale. Not long ago most of the BIS US army content appeared on turbosquid. Prior to that all my models appeared for sale. As did most of footmunch's, some of the Spanish mods stuff and a lot of other people's work.

Please tell how that's justified?

As for decent high poly mods not being published for fear of theft... where did you think some of the Big old names went? Some quit, some took jobs with BIA, other went underground because they were pissed off with thieving scumbags.

And before you think its only just community vs. community. Search for DARWARS on these forums. Google it too. Community content was being exploited/converted for use by the US military as a low cost precursor/alternative to VBS1. And that was not the first or the last time. I've been working in professional simulation dev for a while now and I regularly see community made content for various games appearing in commercial simulations and occasionally games. (Even stuff from Falcon 4/5 gets ripped for commercial gain.)

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I think people should have the right to choose to protect their work.

Make it an option, and even if it is used I bet you most author's will happily explain how they made stuff. Most will even give you the source to show you how it all works if you promise to respect it and not pass it around.

Yes this system could be exploited, as can any system. God knows the existing one is being exploited on a daily basis. But if everyone encrypts their content there will be less theft from opportunists or lazy selfish twats. And I will put decent money on it there will be an increase in cooperation.

But that does leave a gap at the bottom... so the knowledgeable people will have to start documenting their knowledge. And there are a good few sites where generous people are already do that.

...

And in response to a this PM

Partial extract

But you make money selling models you are just trying to make money off this and protect your business...

Yes I do make models for commercial sale. But I also make Free addons for this community. Addons that both UNN and I have spent months if not years developing, addons that we cannot sell or make profit from. Whether I make models for my day job or not is totally irrelevant. Anyone that publishes anything for this game should have the right to protect their own work.

Personally i find the posts demanding an open source/open format engine to be rather telling. Most of the people post aren't modellers, Infact in previous discussions in this vein there have been several well known "pirates" posting demanding their open source rights and mis-quoting EULA clauses and doing and saying almost anything to undermine the legitimate reasons for encryption.

Personally i would love to have a mutual respecting community. One that behaves morally, responsibly and honourably. But it doesn't exist on this planet. And if you think it does then you arent looking properly. Alternatively you are one of the few that Think "Jaime and the magic torch" is a documentary.

Most people will act responsibly but there are always those that ruin it for everyone else. So far in the last 3 years I've found my models that were only released here on over 30 sites, both pay and freeware. I've also found others from this community. As have others and each time someone steals from an author you stand to lose a contributing member of this community. Someone that devotes a huge amount of free time to this community and gets nothing substantial back for his efforts. You should at least give those people respect and allow them to protect their own hard work if they choose.

Anything less is just selfish and ignorant.

Edited October 28, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[PuFu 4600]

...

Please remove that link alef...

Exactly, you either respect IP or you don't and those rights don't vary because of the tools used. It's for the owner alone to decide who should modify or duplicate their work and there's no legitimate basis for certain authors to be awarded more protection than others based on convenience or some potential external market (i.e. TurboSquid).

in my mind there is.

The IP can be protected using a license (CC would do). Inside BI community, controlling what gets published as original content which was in fact borrowed from someone else is pretty easy to do. Just contact a moderator with proof that it is indeed your work, as well as other admins from community mirror websites.

You are right that the IP is IP no matter what form it comes in, but you are trying to compare apples with cakes (both are eatable, but that is where the similarity ends, unless a particular cake contains apples, which would be an delicious exeption :rolleyes:)

How many Arma modelers are out there sitting on hi-poly models that they won't release because there's no way to 'protect' them?

I got two of those. It is besides the point to ask about HP models since you can't really get them in the game. But i am sure RKSL has a lot more, and some others.

And a related question - do we miss them?

I'm not sure, it is a paladin (already available in vilas pack) and some random, out of my head sci fi weapon. You can check Rock's list on his webpage.

Can see the desire for model makers to "protect" their work. But why make them special? Is my work less valuable merely due to the fact it's based on hand-crafted scripts vs the result of some CAD system?

You obviously missed the point of the whole thread.

1. models are special indeed because someone else can earn some real cash using your work. Nothing more nothing less

2. Your work is just as important as the next one. Every one here who has modelled something has already stated that they'll have no issue with the open source, as long as the models would remain in A2 universe, like every other thing out there that would classify as work.

The original question was about PBO archives, not models. Any solution should be all or nothing. Otherwise this pits one part of the developer community against another.

Yes you are right. And as we are back on the point of the thread (skipping the "doing A is more important than B" which is where this discussion lead somehow, i will reiterate:

I don't feel that being able to lock PBOs contributes to the growth of the modding community, hence it is something i don't agree with.

Still, a common sense when releasing anything to the public would be to include a license file for it. See THIS thread for existing discussion on the topic of "why do license matters"

Additionally, there should be a certain "better way" of controlling the abuse of certain content outside the GAME

EDIT_____________________________________________________

Agreed with Rock post, who beat me to it

Edited October 28, 2010 by PuFu

[Defunkt 431]

You are right that the IP is IP no matter what form it comes in, but you are trying to compare apples with cakes (both are eatable, but that is where the similarity ends, unless a particular cake contains apples, which would be an delicious exeption :rolleyes:)

But it's not for anyone but the owner to decide which is the most valuable.

[Binkowski 26]

oh look, it's THIS thread again.

[Zipper5 74]

If I may be so blunt - is it really up to BIS to protect your addons?

I get that you don't appreciate people stealing your stuff, no one does, but you're on the internet, and it is a cesspool of theft and piracy. No matter what you do to protect your addons that you're giving out for free, people will be able to steal them if they choose too because there's yet to be a fool-proof way to stop it entirely. It's the same situation with video games, movies, music, etc.

Sometimes adding ridiculous amounts of "protection" even has negative effect, as quite clearly evidenced by Ubisoft's new DRM...

[rksl-rock 1300]

If I may be so blunt - is it really up to BIS to protect your addons?

Well existing methods of protection arent working. And people are exploiting BIS and community content. Its having a negative effect on some parts of the community and their IP.

So maybe something needs to change...

I get that you don't appreciate people stealing your stuff, no one does, but you're on the internet, and it is a cesspool of theft and piracy. No matter what you do to protect your addons that you're giving out for free, people will be able to steal them if they choose too because there's yet to be a fool-proof way to stop it entirely. It's the same situation with video games, movies, music, etc.

Yes, but it doesnt make it right.

Sometimes adding ridiculous amounts of "protection" even has negative effect, as quite clearly evidenced by Ubisoft's new DRM...

Its only "ridculous" when its not your stuff being stolen.

[Zipper5 74]

Of course, nothing about theft and piracy is "right", but it's also nearly impossible to properly punish on the internet. And by trying to do so, you simply make the thieves and pirates more angry, thus more determined to foil your efforts. It's a perpetual cycle. You might be angry, you might want stuff done, but it's something you have to accept as it isn't going to change any time soon, as unfortunate as that might be. If it's too much to swallow then perhaps you need to stop distributing your creations online to save yourself the anguish.

And no, I don't believe it's only ridiculous when it's not my stuff being stolen. Making your customers (paying or not) suffer because of others would be defined, in my opinion, as ridiculous.

[rksl-rock 1300]

And no, I don't believe it's only ridiculous when it's not my stuff being stolen. Making your customers (paying or not) suffer because of others would be defined, in my opinion, as ridiculous.

Please explain how you suffer if i protect my addons? I really want to know.

[Evil_Echo 11]

You obviously missed the point of the whole thread.

1. models are special indeed because someone else can earn some real cash using your work. Nothing more nothing less

2. Your work is just as important as the next one. Every one here who has modelled something has already stated that they'll have no issue with the open source, as long as the models would remain in A2 universe, like every other thing out there that would classify as work.

Certainly models have commercial worth, but to say they are the only thing that does is unbelievably arrogant. Sound samples, and code both can be stolen just a easily as models and adapted to other products that can be sold. Just because a system is written in the house language does not mean it cannot be translated and re-used for another software engine. Doing so is no different from "tracing" a model - it's theft unless the author blesses that action.

Most of us are aware of models being swiped. Recently there may have been a similar situation with a popular sound mod. I've had software published and modified by a software group long after I repeatedly demanded my code be removed from their releases. Theft in any form sucks.

• Are coders relevant to this discussion? Yes, along with all the other developer specialities.
  
• Are those that advocate open source stupid or thieves? No, most understand copyright law and respect it.
  
• Are the model makers justified in being pissed? Yes, but they are not deserving of any status better or worse than the rest of us.
  

BIS could help a lot in protecting 3rd-party IP, but whatever they do has to apply to everyone fairly.

[nuxil 2]

Please explain how you suffer if i protect my addons? I really want to know.

you make high quality models. most of us know that.

but lets say someone is makeing a new addon. and are having some problems.

might be anything from animation to mlod/glod. config/script etc etc, and he need to know how a sertan thing is done properly.

let say this person is smart enought to guide himself by looking at an exsisting addon. and dont need some lecture from you telling whats needs to do be done to fix it etc etc..

the best way to do that is to open an exsiting addon and poke around in it.

and yeah we have gone over the part where he can email you to ask for premision.

imo thats totaly unseesary. sure if he was to use part of your config script etc etc i understand, but not to find a solution for a problem he has.

i open pbos all the time to see how things where done. it doesnt mean i steal ther work. i mainly do it to get an idea for a problem im having.

no one has forced you to make addons for the arma series. alltho we all apprishiate it.

but you know the risk.

deal with it or stop making addons. its not that hard.

[5133p39 14]

This arguing is completely useless and unnecessary.

There is simply NO WAY to protect your models/scripts/whatever.

At least as long as the game is supposed to be able to read them.

I understand your grief, but the situation is as it is, and there is no way to change it.

Simply put:

the effort to devise some solution will not be worth the result, and it will only complicate things for everyone.

It won't help you as addonmaker, it wont stop thefts. So why do you want BIS bother trying to devise some "solution"?

Like with many things in life, sometimes you just do not have a choice, and you just have to live with that.

[rksl-rock 1300]

you make high quality models. most of us know that.

but lets say someone is makeing a new addon. and are having some problems.

might be anything from animation to mlod/glod. config/script etc etc, and he need to know how a sertan thing is done properly.

let say this person is smart enought to guide himself by looking at an exsisting addon. and dont need some lecture from you telling whats needs to do be done to fix it etc etc..

the best way to do that is to open an exsiting addon and poke around in it.

and yeah we have gone over the part where he can email you to ask for premision.

imo thats totaly unseesary. sure if he was to use part of your config script etc etc i understand, but not to find a solution for a problem he has.

i open pbos all the time to see how things where done. it doesnt mean i steal ther work. i mainly do it to get an idea for a problem im having.

no one has forced you to make addons for the arma series. alltho we all apprishiate it.

but you know the risk.

deal with it or stop making addons. its not that hard.

Yup, that's the kind of attitude that demotivates. See that just reads as rather arrogant and selfish to me. Is my opinion any less valid than yours? Your work is no less valid than mine. The only difference is I would like to stop people selling ours. Is that wrong? And if i were to stop modding, and the various others that share my opinion, who's addons would you data mine for 'your' information?

I really don't see whats wrong with just asking the author. I do and I've made lots of mates here as a result.

(I've also found out who has been spreading BS rumours too that make people question my motivations)

But first go make a model spend hundreds of hours researching it. Buying plans and books. Make the models, unwrap it. Then spend even more time configing it. Get it to fly and drive right. Add all the scripted features. Develop work around for all the stuff that the engine can't actually do right now but you want anyway. Texture it, make it look as real as you possible can, or learn the skills you need to do that until you are satisfied. Then release it.

Then come back to me and tell me how you feel when you get a PM/Email/IM saying "Hey dude, your model is on sale for $$$".

Let me tell you it sucks. It drives people out of public modding. And it drives good talented people out of the community. And 95% of it could be avoided by having the option to lock the PBO.

And Im not suggesting that textures, scripts or configs are any less valid than models in the arma community. What i am saying is that it would be better for the community to actually cooperate, discuss and make friends rather than dipping in and out of each other's addons without consideration for others. That does generate bad feeling and accusations of theft. And also drives good knowledgeable people either underground or out of the community altogether. Whereas, asking the author to explain how they did something shows far more respect. And you may just make a friend yourself.

but you know the risk.

deal with it or stop making addons. its not that hard.

Yes I know the risks. But i still keep making addons because i like making them. But i seriously dislike having my good will and efforts taken advantage of.

Sadly most of them i can no longer release because of the MLOD converter. But some will be released. Others will not see the light of day. Now if it was "harder" to steal models or lock PBOs most of my issues would be solved. And i could release all the addons as originally planned for September and October. However without a significant change to either the PBO or P3D formats/encoding it wont happen.

Finally your tone seems to suggest you have some issue with me, if so PM me don't use this topic to grind axes.

---------- Post added at 01:42 ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 ----------

This arguing is completely useless and unnecessary.

There is simply NO WAY to protect your models/scripts/whatever.

At least as long as the game is supposed to be able to read them.

I understand your grief, but the situation is as it is, and there is no way to change it.

Simply put:

the effort to devise some solution will not be worth the result, and it will only complicate things for everyone.

It won't help you as addonmaker, it wont stop thefts. So why do you want BIS bother trying to devise some "solution"?

Like with many things in life, sometimes you just do not have a choice, and you just have to live with that.

You see thats just defeatist. ;)

BIS managed to protect the DLC packs and they are still readable ingame.

To be honest i just don't seewhy you lot are so against protection. You all talk like you want an open source license but all you talk about is raiding other people's addons for your own benefit. Its just seems rather selfish to me.

Edited October 29, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[max power 21]

In my opinion, people should be able to protect their work if they choose to the extent that they choose. There is plenty of support for inexperienced modders on these boards- and hell, that's what OFPEC and the Biki is for. There are community made tuts, support forums, excellent modders who make themselves available for question and even people who seek out questions to answer. Every day the knowledge available on this forum alone grows in this way. Maybe we should start a search function awareness campaign. When I'm answering questions, 90% of the answers come from searching; either to refresh my knowledge of a topic or to learn more about something to give the correct answer. There are even modders out there who will make themselves available on chat and answer questions in real time. The argument that you need to violate copyrighted work to learn is full of fail... absolutely chalked full of seething, bubbling fail. In addition to community resources, not all modders feel like they need to protect their work and many will allow you some latitude if you ask for it. Moreover, there are all kinds of example models and configs out there, and you can't walk for two seconds down the road of the addon editing forum without tripping over a code sample.

If you feel like there's not enough information for modders out there, why not slap a two paragraph article on the biki. If the biki had the word count equivalent of this thread added to it in useful info, we would be all the better for it.

[STALKERGB 6]

Have to agree with Max Power for the most part, personally I think that opening other people's work can SLOW your learning process. You end up just staring a something that works how you'd like your model/addon/etc but no idea how it got to that stage (if that makes sense). In contrast to this, having to actually ask someone will more often than not get you a better answer than poking around another addon. I'd certainly be for the option to protect yor work by locking the PBO, not saying it should be forced but at least have the ability to do it. At the end of the day, if you need to learn how someone did something, just ask them...

[nuxil 2]

Finally your tone seems to suggest you have some issue with me, if so PM me don't use this topic to grind axes.

NO NO. i have no issue againt you or any other people in the arma community. sorry if my post seams to be harsh for you.

but i dont see whats the big problem poking around in others addons for solution. not stealing/cloing anything. but merly looking for a solution.

and therby giving you some credits for providing a "passive" solution.

See that just reads as rather arrogant and selfish to me

well. to me locking pbo's seams selfish. not letting others gain experiance from anothers addon with out becomeing a letterfriend.

and as i said: if he was to use part of your config script etc etc i understand, but not to find a solution for a problem he has.

im not saying its easy to make models. i know there alot of time going into this. i know this because i started to model in c4d a while back. it took way to much of my time to continue doing it. so i stick to scripting instead. which i know better anyway.

if bis where to provide some protection. i hope its not on the pbos. but the p3d. script. configs should always be able to depbo.

textures also for that mattere. it cant be used on any other models since its uvmaped for that spesific model

Edited October 29, 2010 by nuxil

[JdB 151]

I'm just curious. Let's say you are having some issues with your PC, and your friend is really good with computers. How many of you have fixed their PCs by sneaking/breaking into your friend's house and looking at how their PC works?

Not many I suspect, you would ask them for their help. An ODOL model works in the same way, a lockable pbo/model would work in the same way. If someone decides to release an MLOD model, that is their choice, not their obligation to the community like a lot of non-modelers seem to think. As most models by more experienced addonmakers are binarized, and cannot be accessed except by unofficial tools developed by the chronically naive, it is only logical to ask for their help. Although in most cases there won't be any need to look at a specific model as there have been plenty of MLODs with lenient license agreements released of all types over the years that can be used to learn from/troubleshoot with, along with tutorials, forums and BIS Wiki, at which point the insistence on using a particular model is usually telling enough about the real intent of the "student".

Edited October 29, 2010 by JdB