Mission makers, what do you miss in the BI maps?

[digitalcenturion 20]

Hi

I'm working on a pretty hefty piece of terrain right now based on the Takistan setting, and I'm wondering what you, the mission makers, think is lacking in the BI maps?

Also, what features did you enjoy?

What technical features make mission editing hard/easy?

How do you feel about topography, is hilly or flat terrain easier to work with?

What about cities and villages, what do you prefer regarding size, location and density?

This is merely to give me some mental guidelines on what do and what not to do.

For example, i've found that the Takistan terrain while stunning is difficult to work with in the editor because of very steep slopes which the ai Helos often crash into, few places where the AI can land and not much in the terms size, it is quite small. Mine while be larger, but not maybe as densely populated or quite as polished (to begin with, at least :) ).

Also, MODs, i hope this is the right forum for this :P

[enad 11]

I want some good trenches...and some nice villages like in the Map Afghan village. Lots of small walls for cover.

Thats all I can think of right now

[Max255 59]

For me it's lack of green, flat areas (or just lot bigger valey bottoms) and also high corn/grass fields (any fields with high vegatation)... Both provide nice looks and good experience.

[rübe 127]

Regarding Takistan the first thing that comes to mind is flat and empty areas. For example there should be always some flat (say below 0.15° gradient) and empty space (radius > 10m) near a town. In Takistan, the next flat, empty and big enough area might be thousands of meters away, which makes it quite hard to spawn random buildings such as tents, a small camp or what not "there".

Similarly there should always be nice flat and empty areas every now and then, be it a clearing, in the swamps or in the mountains. Again, I'd like to later find such areas with scripting to spawn camps and stuff.

But don't get me wrong, otherwise I prefer non-flat terrain with lot's of bumps and step, to render it basically unpassable at least to ground vehicles... for tactical reasons obviously.

So some balance is never wrong, though also extreme worlds (the one way or the other) could be interessting, so... whatever. :D

[IndeedPete 1038]

More ruins and destroyed buildings/areas. it should look like a warzone with trenches, wrecks, destruction and so on. :)

[rübe 127]

More ruins and destroyed buildings/areas. it should look like a warzone with trenches, wrecks, destruction and so on. :)

Actually I don't think this is a good idea... at all.

Sure, I like it too if there is some destruction in the area of operation, but destroying things is really easy, so this should be up to the mission maker. He can also specify the sort of destruction, filter out objects he needs intact, and varying the sort of destruction. For example I like to set buildings on fire, burning them down, with particles and stuff, slowly destroying them, while other stuff like trees are simply killed with a call to setDamage.

Long story short: if you need a warzone with ruins and a wave of destruction.. then write a little script to destroy stuff and spawn some wrecks here and there. Done. If you'd already have a mostly destroyed world, on the other hand, a mission maker would be severly limited in lots of ways.

But sure, such a destroyed map could work really well. It's just not a good idea in general.

[katipo66 94]

As Enad said, something like Afghan village, small settlements grouped in reasonably close proximity, with open areas between each.

Even with OA i still like setting up missions in Afghan village, its close to the perfect map imho, would be great too see it with OA buildings

[CarlGustaffa 4]

As ruebe says, it would have to be the lack of flat spaces. I love the valley based terrain in Takistan for all the tactical opportunities it gives, but the mountains are generally unsuitable to use/place stuff on.

Takistan - Love the valleys, those preplaced base areas and replaced fortification objects in certain locations. Don't like the "small village" feel. Big towns might be problematic wrt performance though.

Chernarus - Love the beautifulness, wood fighting, and large cities. Don't like the fps in large cities, and how it lacked tactical means of getting close unseen. Too dense woods on hills made them impossible to approach.

Sahrani - Love the terrain in general, very varied (too varied to be "realistic" but I don't care). Cities and towns are of decent sizes and numbers (could be more and bigger, as always). Loved the "high regions" (plateaus), that we could actually use. Don't like lack of valleys and ambush places, and the fact that the island is far too small, causing "towns" to appear within a couple of minutes walk time.

My "dream island":

1) Contains 10-15-20 fairly major cities and towns, like Corazol, Dolores, Ortego and Berezino. 3-4 "Capitol sized" ones (Like Paraiso, Bagango, Elektrozavodsk, and Chernogorsk. 30-50 villages the size we have today. Capitols should be sort of central in their region they were capitols of, but could be coast based if region was on coast. Distance between towns should be large enough to want a ride.

2) Support both coastal regions and high altitude regions in the same map (>1000m difference). Sort of like the area south of Tres Valles on Sahrani, but was located at really high altitudes with Takistan valleys leading up to it. High altitude "plains" if you wish, instead of completely peak based (and thus quite unusable).

3) Two fairly large islands, like Sahrani Antigua and Rahmadi, but the size of Utes, with their own airstrips/airports.

4) Several smaller islands, big enough to contain some base structures, like Sahrani Isla del Vassal and Isla del Vida, but these could be the size of Rahmadi and Antigua.

5) Some kind of geographical structures like Sahrani Isla del Victoria, that you could only get to by crossing a bridge.

6) Sea canal systems, like found near Sahrani towns of Dolores and Iguana.

7) Lookout point opportunities, like there is basically everywhere on Takistan, and extremely hard to find in Chernarus (due to trees on hills).

8) Plenty of bases and base areas, maybe not located as close to the "towns" as they are in Takistan.

9) Bridges that work! :) They seemed to work better in Sahrani than in Chernarus. You can't really have a canal system (at least not near towns) unless AI can either navigate them or circumnavigate them without getting wet. Alternate routes avoiding the bridges is a must.

10) I love Sahranis mix of terrain, so I'd like to see desert (in the south), barren dryland (in the middle south), wooden areas (in the middle north), to snow covered areas (in the north). Lowland areas could be green (even greener near rivers, think the Nile here), medium altitude areas could be more barren/sandy rock (like in Takistan), and extreme mountainpeaks and high altitudes up north could be snow.

11) Always more than one access road to a town, and usually these access roads should be hidden from the town view by use of terrain features such as hills. Only villages might have a single drive through main road.

12) Multi lane highways connecting the four capitol sized cities.

13) All of the four capitols should have major base areas nearby, with enough space free to let us do our own thing (I can no longer remove static barracks from the map using hideObject, means the current bases are "too crowded" to put in the required vehicles and structures to serve as a base for my mission).

14) Lighthouses, ancient ruins and similar structures scattered around the map.

15) Ponds only in locations where they can be avoided. I don't want them too close to towns where AI can easily get trapped in them.

16) A working electrical grid, with transformer stations and power plants. Can't believe Takistan don't have these :(

17) Railroad system, with major hubs at the capitols, stations in cities, and stops in or near villages.

18) Fictional location, possibly far south to get an "unusual star sky" (for most of us), allowing midnight sun and great control over "day lenght" by setting day of year.

19) Example of map that basically "have it all" (except snow), is Egypt. If you have google earth, take also a loot at the mountain regions to the east. A simple conversion wouldn't work (sizes), but a hand generated elevation map of a fictional location based on Egypt (greens, desert, highlands, mountains, sea, canals, lakes, rivers, islands) could be a very nice island.

Enough ideas? :D

[Jazzadazza 10]

Caves...

that is all

[Bon 12]

Regarding Takistan the first thing that comes to mind is flat and empty areas. For example there should be always some flat (say below 0.15° gradient) and empty space (radius > 10m) near a town. In Takistan, the next flat, empty and big enough area might be thousands of meters away, which makes it quite hard to spawn random buildings such as tents, a small camp or what not "there".

Similarly there should always be nice flat and empty areas every now and then, be it a clearing, in the swamps or in the mountains. Again, I'd like to later find such areas with scripting to spawn camps and stuff.[...]

+1. Definitely.

[digitalcenturion 20]

As ruebe says, it would have to be the lack of flat spaces. I love the valley based terrain in Takistan for all the tactical opportunities it gives, but the mountains are generally unsuitable to use/place stuff on.

Takistan - Love the valleys, those preplaced base areas and replaced fortification objects in certain locations. Don't like the "small village" feel. Big towns might be problematic wrt performance though.

Chernarus - Love the beautifulness, wood fighting, and large cities. Don't like the fps in large cities, and how it lacked tactical means of getting close unseen. Too dense woods on hills made them impossible to approach.

Sahrani - Love the terrain in general, very varied (too varied to be "realistic" but I don't care). Cities and towns are of decent sizes and numbers (could be more and bigger, as always). Loved the "high regions" (plateaus), that we could actually use. Don't like lack of valleys and ambush places, and the fact that the island is far too small, causing "towns" to appear within a couple of minutes walk time.

My "dream island":

1) Contains 10-15-20 fairly major cities and towns, like Corazol, Dolores, Ortego and Berezino. 3-4 "Capitol sized" ones (Like Paraiso, Bagango, Elektrozavodsk, and Chernogorsk. 30-50 villages the size we have today. Capitols should be sort of central in their region they were capitols of, but could be coast based if region was on coast. Distance between towns should be large enough to want a ride.

2) Support both coastal regions and high altitude regions in the same map (>1000m difference). Sort of like the area south of Tres Valles on Sahrani, but was located at really high altitudes with Takistan valleys leading up to it. High altitude "plains" if you wish, instead of completely peak based (and thus quite unusable).

3) Two fairly large islands, like Sahrani Antigua and Rahmadi, but the size of Utes, with their own airstrips/airports.

4) Several smaller islands, big enough to contain some base structures, like Sahrani Isla del Vassal and Isla del Vida, but these could be the size of Rahmadi and Antigua.

5) Some kind of geographical structures like Sahrani Isla del Victoria, that you could only get to by crossing a bridge.

6) Sea canal systems, like found near Sahrani towns of Dolores and Iguana.

7) Lookout point opportunities, like there is basically everywhere on Takistan, and extremely hard to find in Chernarus (due to trees on hills).

8) Plenty of bases and base areas, maybe not located as close to the "towns" as they are in Takistan.

9) Bridges that work! :) They seemed to work better in Sahrani than in Chernarus. You can't really have a canal system (at least not near towns) unless AI can either navigate them or circumnavigate them without getting wet. Alternate routes avoiding the bridges is a must.

10) I love Sahranis mix of terrain, so I'd like to see desert (in the south), barren dryland (in the middle south), wooden areas (in the middle north), to snow covered areas (in the north). Lowland areas could be green (even greener near rivers, think the Nile here), medium altitude areas could be more barren/sandy rock (like in Takistan), and extreme mountainpeaks and high altitudes up north could be snow.

11) Always more than one access road to a town, and usually these access roads should be hidden from the town view by use of terrain features such as hills. Only villages might have a single drive through main road.

12) Multi lane highways connecting the four capitol sized cities.

13) All of the four capitols should have major base areas nearby, with enough space free to let us do our own thing (I can no longer remove static barracks from the map using hideObject, means the current bases are "too crowded" to put in the required vehicles and structures to serve as a base for my mission).

14) Lighthouses, ancient ruins and similar structures scattered around the map.

15) Ponds only in locations where they can be avoided. I don't want them too close to towns where AI can easily get trapped in them.

16) A working electrical grid, with transformer stations and power plants. Can't believe Takistan don't have these :(

17) Railroad system, with major hubs at the capitols, stations in cities, and stops in or near villages.

18) Fictional location, possibly far south to get an "unusual star sky" (for most of us), allowing midnight sun and great control over "day lenght" by setting day of year.

19) Example of map that basically "have it all" (except snow), is Egypt. If you have google earth, take also a loot at the mountain regions to the east. A simple conversion wouldn't work (sizes), but a hand generated elevation map of a fictional location based on Egypt (greens, desert, highlands, mountains, sea, canals, lakes, rivers, islands) could be a very nice island.

Enough ideas? :D

Thanks for taking the time to write this thourough feedback, you have some very good points. I'm surprised you like sahrani so much, for me it never really felt good but I think it was more a "realism" issue than an actual problem for me, it's just too small to represent two countries.

I like Takistans and Chernarus ideas of being provinces of a larger country. Some of these ideas are not going to make it, for sure, but it's good food for thought.

My map is now basically a large (40 x 40km) desert-type area with a river running (made as sea, not with pond objects) from South to North and East, connected by a larger lake in the middle. The rivers are mostly deep but i plan on having several fords and shallows, som even marked on the map, so AI units can get through. Bridges are unavoidable tho, but in my experience if you tinker a bit you can get units to cross properly. The river is surrounded by lush greens and fields, which will use the avaliable plants for maybe 50% of them, rest will be grass. The fields will be quite small based on what i've seen from similar RL areas, and divided by trees and to some extent the low OA walls. The river makes a lot of bends and sometimes divides to form various sized "islands" in the middle, these could prove interesting for mission makers. Outside the river areas we have standard fare arid plains and mountains (no extremes tho!) with some green valleys at proper places, ie where things could actually grow. A mountain plateu is a good idea tho, as it fits the bill and i think can be quite realistic. I plan on having maybe 2-4 larger cities and a number of smaller villages, but travel time between them will be larger than BIS maps. Some mountain villages will probably be really isolated. An old mountain castle ruin might be interesting as a stronghold, i will probably make it larger then the BIS castles.

As for highways, probably not, too high tech for this area. Railways are a maybe.

Caves...

that is all

Probably difficult to achieve with the means we have today. Gonna investigate it.

As Enad said, something like Afghan village, small settlements grouped in reasonably close proximity, with open areas between each.

Even with OA i still like setting up missions in Afghan village, its close to the perfect map imho, would be great too see it with OA buildings

Gonna have to check out Afghan village then, haven't actually played it.

Regarding Takistan the first thing that comes to mind is flat and empty areas. For example there should be always some flat (say below 0.15° gradient) and empty space (radius > 10m) near a town. In Takistan, the next flat, empty and big enough area might be thousands of meters away, which makes it quite hard to spawn random buildings such as tents, a small camp or what not "there".

Similarly there should always be nice flat and empty areas every now and then, be it a clearing, in the swamps or in the mountains. Again, I'd like to later find such areas with scripting to spawn camps and stuff.

But don't get me wrong, otherwise I prefer non-flat terrain with lot's of bumps and step, to render it basically unpassable at least to ground vehicles... for tactical reasons obviously.

So some balance is never wrong, though also extreme worlds (the one way or the other) could be interessting, so... whatever. :D

Flatlands are in, and I'll remember to leave some flats near cities too!

For me it's lack of green, flat areas (or just lot bigger valey bottoms) and also high corn/grass fields (any fields with high vegatation)... Both provide nice looks and good experience.

Fields will be plentiful in my map, no vorries :P

Thanks for all the ideas, keep em coming, no request is too unreasonable to ask :P

[digitalcenturion 20]

I have more questions :P

what kind of vegetation density do you prefer: none (desert), low (few trees), medium (fair amount of trees, not forest) or high (forest) and in what ratios.

Do you ever use forests for fights (I've noticed I rarely do on chernarus)? Then again, do you avoid barren areas like the oil fields in Takistan?

How about urban terrains? Do you want open squares in cities, like markets or monuments etc? If so, how big roughly? What elements do you like in cities to make good cqb missions?

[cream-t 10]

New to Arma. Got OA (prefer desert to switzerland) and was slightly disappointed there was no afghany "green zone". Ruined my ideas for missions.

Large flat valley, trees, water ditches, afghan style compounds and a river with a few crossings. (The river is a real miss.)

like this...

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/ECB6FB4E-BEC6-46BB-AD26-308812A7EC1F/0/CAJQKFJ1.jpg

Just found this pic. But strangely it is from a documentary that I planned to do a mission for! Light armour on hill waiting in ambush targeting wide gap in trees. While bluefor in valley pushed opfor along river into trap.

Edited September 1, 2010 by cream-t

[digitalcenturion 20]

hehe well then you'll prolly like my map :D or atleast if i can pull of what im aiming for...

but, to show some what i got from various very early builds of my map (still in 0.0001 alpha version)

Rivers:

Another river

http://www.kimitosoft.com/upload/visitor/takiN_2.jpg

Riverbed in background

Narrow valleys

Big mountains

All are taken with 10k view distance and no horizon tex, remember kids this is 41x41 km :P And yes the desert texes still look like crap, i know.

[fatty86 10]

Looks nice. I for one would like to see coastal areas suitable for placing ships. Doesn't necessarily have to be surrounded by water, just maybe with one corner open to the sea. Think Al Basrah or something similar.

[ben_s 11]

large open flatlands, but with nice mountanious ranges coupled with areas with good vegetation growing.

And alot of small villages, perhaps some of those compounds and stuff. For some good gameplay. :)

[b00tsy 28]

I am missing caves, creek(s), bridge(s) and an accessible mine.

[ben_s 11]

Ok, so the US Army are resorting to living in caves now? Figures. :D

[cream-t 10]

digital, a river nice but that map looks like Europe.

As for a sea fatty86, most that happen in Basra seas was a few Royal Marines joy riding boats catching oil tankers.

I want scenes that match the real world conflict.

Edited September 2, 2010 by cream-t

[b00tsy 28]

lol no the Taliban...ehhm Takistan. Would be great to be able to create missions where you also could use some caves or a mine (something underground) that you can enter for several hundred meters. I can think of a lot of nice scenario's that would include caves or a mine :)

[Decerto 10]

add my support to caves, although I don't know if the engine can make them. Maybe join a bunch of empty shipping containers together and force them into a hillside?

Caves just reminded me of the first map from the original Ghost Recon where you have to go into caves and take out the guy, that was sweeeeeeet.

[-)rStrangelove 0]

Plenty of stuff alongside of roads so that ambushes are possible (bushes, rocks, wrecks), but not too dense so AI gets confused when trying to drive on the road.

Also, the main street should not be blocked by tiny villages. Driving through a village should be possible without much hazzle for the AI (50m wide space). Either that, or place the whole village on 1 side of the road only.

Edited September 2, 2010 by ])rStrangelove

[cream-t 10]

Pretty sure caves are not possible.

I want me green zone!

[Daniel 0]

Even if caves are possible, they'd drive the already overworked AI nuts.

Lots of flat or rolling areas with lots of hard cover like big rocks scattered around please! But along with that add variation, so some areas with sparse cover, some tactically advantageous areas.

For example, Aiaktalik has loads of hard cover, but it's everywhere, meaning the only tactically important ground is high ground.

Mostly, go easy on the mountains and ponds, the game's AI really struggles with them and it makes mission making a pain.

[kylania 568]

Caves are possible. They are in VBS and Mushroom Kingdom. Both are of... questionable quality though. Like the VBS cave is basically just a really small pocket of rock.