CM Operation Flashpoint 3 announced | "Oops, they're doing it again..."

[rangerpl 13]

The whole DR lying has been done to the death. CM addmited what happened, and are aiming to stop it happening again.

If he came right out and said "We will support this game for the coming years with DLC" you would call him a liar, if he doesn't say anything about DLC you complain about how he wont say anything. If he says something vauge that stops the watcher getting any preconceptions about what he might be saying, you still complain.

He's avoiding having the whole "liar" sitauation again, Exacly the thing this community was telling him to do back in DR/Early RR cycle.

Give the whole "Sion = liar" stuff up, as he's said it happened. And they're aiming not to say anything unless it's set in stone this time.

That's like saying "I'm sorry I shit on your carpet, will never happen again". It should NEVER have happened. You can't flip off your customers and then promise "NEXT TIME WE'LL DO IT RIGHT". They should have done it right the first time. Of course once you have separated thousands of people from their money then you can admit whatever the hell you want, because nobody's going to buy DR now anyway.

Respect needs to be earned. By releasing such a crappy OFP:DR, they have thrown away all respect anyone here might have had for them. Until they prove that they are serious about supporting their game with patches, they deserve no respect.

We don't piss on Codemasters because we're jerks and douchebags... we do it because CM gives us no reason not to piss on them.

It's how the world works, guy. If you're applying for a university, you need to give them the reasons why they should accept you, not why they shouldn't reject you. Yes, there is a huge difference.

I'd give them the benefit of the doubt if this was their first time. But it isn't.

Edited March 30, 2011 by RangerPL

[ben_s 11]

There shouldn't even have been a last time, they were (and are) too inexperienced with FPS' to be making titled games like OFP.

Yes, Yes, But if it was a dog that shat on your carpet, Dogs being untrained and not as smart as humans. Your reaction would be different.

The dev team are inexperienced in making FPS, and should have some leverage on that point at least. Though, they shouldn't be working with a title such as OFP in the first place. I have mixed feelings on that issue you raised - They should've got it right first time.

[rangerpl 13]

There shouldn't even have been a last time, they were (and are) too inexperienced with FPS' to be making titled games like OFP.

Yes, Yes, But if it was a dog that shat on your carpet, Dogs being untrained and not as smart as humans. Your reaction would be different.

The dev team are inexperienced in making FPS, and should have some leverage on that point at least. Though, they shouldn't be working with a title such as OFP in the first place. I have mixed feelings on that issue you raised - They should've got it right first time.

???

This has little to do with what I said. My point was "why are you defending Codemasters and asking us to give them the benefit of the doubt, when this isn't the first time they lied?" Tell me, please. Give me one reason why they DESERVE the benefit of the doubt.

[ben_s 11]

They don't. Re-Read my post. Try read it between the lines. So to speak.

You stated that "That's like saying "I'm sorry I shit on your carpet, will never happen again". It should NEVER have happened."

I was then hinting towards CM being more like the untrained dog, rather than the human. In a sense that they are inexperienced and are obviously, not too into the FPS game development area.

Then I went on to state that CM shouldn't have had a "first time" with OFP anyway, since they shouldn't be messing with large name titles without a trained, experienced devteam. Which didn't happen.

Then I hinted towards me being neutral on the subject, and not having an answer for either. As I can see both sides, and do not know which to lean towards.

[rangerpl 13]

They don't. Re-Read my post. Try read it between the lines. So to speak.

You stated that "That's like saying "I'm sorry I shit on your carpet, will never happen again". It should NEVER have happened."

I was then hinting towards CM being more like the untrained dog, rather than the human. In a sense that they are inexperienced and are obviously, not too into the FPS game development area.

Then I went on to state that CM shouldn't have had a "first time" with OFP anyway, since they shouldn't be messing with large name titles without a trained, experienced devteam. Which didn't happen.

Then I hinted towards me being neutral on the subject, and not having an answer for either. As I can see both sides, and do not know which to lean towards.

A truly inexperienced team would make a game that would at least be a buggy mess. Codemasters simply showed that they don't care about their community, that's not an inexperienced developer, that's just a good old asshole.

Look at BI, they have a very small Dev team, and they continue to support their game with patches and DLC.

[ben_s 11]

Yes. They're experienced, talented and have a good strong fanbase. On the other hand - CM do not.

Call them what you want; the point still stands - they shouldn't have attempted to make the game in the first place, at least, not like that. (DR)

[froggyluv 2136]

@Ben: You seem to think of CM as some poor little naive, helpless puppy dogs that you need to be nice too -after they nipped you and your wallet right out.

CM execs must be smiling incredulously from their shiny tower at the the buyers they screwed are still aound pointing fingers with a tsk tsk.

Like Ranger said, those arent rookie mistakes. They're calculated by budgets and probably nothing else. You seem to be under the impression that you and your CM forumites have a sway over CM's decision making -you dont. They dont care. They may try to spin away any concerns with side angle sales techniches ie "Unlimited Magic medical bags only add CHOICE to the player who can really play it or refuse to use it -thats the beauty of CHOICE"-

-thats shoeshining101 son.

When you say the "lying thing" has been done to death I can only shake my head in wonder. Why trust a liar? Are you that short of game developers to admire and love? Liers lie -thats what they do. If not openly, then behind closed door thru action.

[ben_s 11]

Well, companies do that. The dev team was inexperienced for DR (at least the final, there was mutliple ones).

They're most likley a mix of rookie mistakes, mixed in with budget problems and CM exec's going around doing as they please with series.

I don't trust CM, infact the opposite. But I will watch them, and see what they do. I have a faith in this dev team, but only because I always have a small ammount of 'faith' in all developer teams. I even pull intrest at the CoD's each year, up until release where I make my mind up.

You may say it lets me fall into traps, But I may never buy/play RR, it depends on what people think come release. I'm just more open to things that other gamers, so it seems.

[froggyluv 2136]

I believe this thread is a good indication of their current truthiness meter:

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/general-discussion-1335/460077-sion-interview-video-english-gamer-nl.html#post6990808

"Sion looks sideways a few times and touches his nose twice .... thats five lies that i could see... i didnt even need audio...."

:D

[ben_s 11]

Wait, Delivered what they promised for DR? Ok .... I recall my last statement about Sion keeping his mouth shut. :/

[JdB 151]

Yes. They're experienced, talented and have a good strong fanbase. On the other hand - CM do not.

Call them what you want; the point still stands - they shouldn't have attempted to make the game in the first place, at least, not like that. (DR)

When BIS created the only real OFP, they were a tiny team that had never published a game of this scale, and they could only dream of having the resources that CM had for DR. They added tons of innovation where CM added nothing, but only tried to poorly copy other games. That wasn't a case of "oh no, everything has gone wrong and now we're going to be forced to disappoint our fans with less than what we had intended", from the very start it has always been a business decision. The decision to rip people off. Just look at how many times Lenton mentions words such as (or similar to) "franchise" and "product", words a sales manager would use. That's where the real "customer feedback" is, in the single line of numbers at the bottom of the accountant's sheet, the line that says "net profit".

The real OFP was good because they made a game that they themselves wanted to play, and the money only came after that as a result of the game being good and innovative. For a good game the love comes first, the money later. For all CM games the money comes first, and that's why all of their games are rubbish. If I make a product, let's say a car, that is not as described in the advertisement (dedicated server), is plain dangerous (PC overheating because of a lovely patch), and I simply refuse to do anything about it by refusing to service it, listen to complaints or even acknowledge the problems exist (dropping support, maintaining the PR stance that DR was essentially a fine product), I am going to get sued by customers and eaten alive by any consumer rights agency in existence. Oddly the gaming industry is one of the few exceptions where there is absolutely no outside control to see to it that people are getting value for their money.

[max power 21]

Codemasters are industry professionals with over 2 decades of industry experience. They were named Indy Developer of the Year in 2005 by Development magazine. You are a fool, Ben, if you are likening them to poor little puppies who lost their way. They are professional developers and business sharks. The reason they shat on our carpets is because things were going wrong in the DR development and they thought they could get away with it. They did not, and now we know what kind of people are sitting at the helm.

[grub 10]

The reason they shat on our carpets is because things were going wrong in the DR development and they thought they could get away with it. They did not, and now we know what kind of people are sitting at the helm.

And this is what we have been trying to get across Ben_S. Its not even about the quality comparison for us its the fact that they thought they could get away with it. And that it happened in the first place.

But in hindsight, I'm glad they put BIS through that, they have come out the other side stronger and better for it. And the ArmA series and their dedication to the community is testimony.

[rangerpl 13]

Codemasters are industry professionals with over 2 decades of industry experience. They were named Indy Developer of the Year in 2005 by Development magazine. You are a fool, Ben, if you are likening them to poor little puppies who lost their way. They are professional developers and business sharks. The reason they shat on our carpets is because things were going wrong in the DR development and they thought they could get away with it. They did not, and now we know what kind of people are sitting at the helm.

That's why they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. You need to earn it and they haven't.

If BI screwed up, fine. I'd forgive them because they have been making quality games and have a history of supporting the community. CM doesn't.

[ben_s 11]

Codemasters are industry professionals with over 2 decades of industry experience. They were named Indy Developer of the Year in 2005 by Development magazine. You are a fool, Ben, if you are likening them to poor little puppies who lost their way. They are professional developers and business sharks. The reason they shat on our carpets is because things were going wrong in the DR development and they thought they could get away with it. They did not, and now we know what kind of people are sitting at the helm.

Yeah because CM only has 1 devteam that makes all their games, and they've so had 2 decades of experience. :rolleyes:

And this is what we have been trying to get across Ben_S. Its not even about the quality comparison for us its the fact that they thought they could get away with it. And that it happened in the first place.

But in hindsight, I'm glad they put BIS through that, they have come out the other side stronger and better for it. And the ArmA series and their dedication to the community is testimony.

It happened because CM marketing is in charge, and to the tops. Not only did they get away with it, it was a huge success. It's the opposite to us, but not to them. Which is the problem with large game development companies.

[Cyper 18]

The whole DR lying has been done to the death. CM addmited what happened, and are aiming to stop it happening again.

If he came right out and said "We will support this game for the coming years with DLC" you would call him a liar, if he doesn't say anything about DLC you complain about how he wont say anything. If he says something vauge that stops the watcher getting any preconceptions about what he might be saying, you still complain.

He's avoiding having the whole "liar" sitauation again, Exacly the thing this community was telling him to do back in DR/Early RR cycle.

Give the whole "Sion = liar" stuff up, as he's said it happened. And they're aiming not to say anything unless it's set in stone this time.

The Dev team were misleading a lot of people with Dragon Rising and Sion Lenton told many straight-out lies, such as about the freeroaming aspect. He was marketing the game as something amazing when it in fact was a game that was sloppy developed.

A good example of that is the AI, the mission design, and the multiplayer mode. Along with this they were promoting the game as the official sequel to Operation Flashpoint: Cold war crisis.

To quote Mark Turosz;

''This is the official sequel to the extremely popular Operation Flashpoint: Cold war crisis''

Whenever Codemasters admits all this or not doesn’t matter. Sion Lenton, and the rest of the Dev team, are up with dirty un-ethical business. And that’s exactly what it is - business, good or bad. What makes their game successfull isn’t the fact whenever you, or anyone else like the game or not, but how many copies they’re able to sell.

In my opinion, you’re putting away to much faith into the Dev team, and I can’t really understand that you litteraly accept getting fooled, and that you wan’t to support the game and future development.

He (Sion) couldn’t even say that he would promise people that they would support the game with patches and such. So he’s basicly saying that ''If our product is broken we cannot promise that we'll fix it for you.

If you believe that a business man who’s been telling lies and using un-ethical methods to achieve what they want suddenly will change to a truthfull one, you’re probably wrong. Persons like this tends not to change very much at all.

But it’s easy not to care as you do. To say ''If you don’t like the game, get out of here and don’t discuss it!'' As in all other problem and issues in life. But it’s rarely is the best solution.

I call him a lier because I don’t have any faith in him. I don’t believe in him. I don’t swallow what he says as you do, and I don’t got the heart to be as un-ethical as him by supporting his business in the hope that the next day will be better.

[bangtail 0]

Yeah because CM only has 1 devteam that makes all their games, and they've so had 2 decades of experience. :rolleyes:

It happened because CM marketing is in charge, and to the tops. Not only did they get away with it, it was a huge success. It's the opposite to us, but not to them. Which is the problem with large game development companies.

DR was not a huge success, not on the PC anyway.

Go back to the CM forums, as you've been told repeatedly, you're not going to change anyone's mind here no matter how many times you repeat the same BS.

[ben_s 11]

DR was not a huge success, not on the PC anyway.

Go back to the CM forums, as you've been told repeatedly, you're not going to change anyone's mind here no matter how many times you repeat the same BS.

Who said it was?

[Richey79 10]

Yeah because CM only has 1 devteam that makes all their games, and they've so had 2 decades of experience. :rolleyes:

CM don't keep one dev team together even throughout the production cycle of one game.

They treat people badly and force them to compromise so much that people become jaded and leave as soon as they can. Thus, a revolving door of developers who aren't properly motivated led by middle-management bean counters. That's the total opposite of the indie developer philosophy, and they only have themselves to blame if they never learn from the mistakes they make.

Oh, and,

it was a huge success

Either you need to learn clarity of expression, or you're merely being flippant.

[ben_s 11]

No, I just put the full stop in the wrong place. :o

It happened because CM marketing is in charge, and to the tops. Not only did they get away with it, it was a huge success.

Would have been better as:

And to the tops - not only did they get away with it, it was a huge success.

CM don't keep one dev team together even throughout the production cycle of one game.

They treat people badly and force them to compromise so much that people become jaded and leave as soon as they can. Thus, a revolving door of developers who aren't properly motivated led by middle-management bean counters. That's the total opposite of the indie developer philosophy, and they only have themselves to blame if they never learn from the mistakes they make.

I know they don't, it was sarcasm. And yes, They have themselves to blame if it happens again. If they can't keep 1 developer team during a project, No wonder the game came out like it did.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Ben_S

[bangtail 0]

Seriously, the guy seems to have some kind of chronic memory loss :rolleyes

[Zipper5 74]

Please stop with the bashing of Ben, guys. As much as we may not like to admit it ( :p ), he adds a good dose of Devil's Advocate to this thread and keeps our opinions in check. ;)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Ben_S is just a kid who wants to play and stay on all sides. Guess he don't want to do or say anything "wrong"....

Too young => No money => Crappy PC => Not running arma2 decently => Stuck with crappy games less demanding => Feeling close to other broke teens of the cm community => Trying to defend crappy games here cause they are the only way for him to play sort-of-sim-like games => End of the story

Perhaps he is just afraid if he says here something like "DR sucks and RR doesn't look better!!!" he won't have a chance to login @CM forums anymore. :D

[ben_s 11]

Please stop with the bashing of Ben, guys. As much as we may not like to admit it ( :p ), he adds a good dose of Devil's Advocate to this thread and keeps our opinions in check. ;)

Well, I'm going to get a new PC at the beginning of May. Perhaps then, my view on ArmA II will change. or so you say.

I guess I will actually be able to play it then. :p

Ben_S is just a kid who wants to play and stay on all sides. Guess he don't want to do or say anything "wrong"....

Perhaps he is just afraid if he says here something like "DR sucks and RR doesn't look better!!!" he won't have a chance to login @CM forums anymore. :D

Perhaps I stay on both sides because I disagree/agree the same ammount, with both. So I have no actual side to pick.

And If I suddenly couldn't login to CM forums anymore (due to a ban) I would laugh. Considering I post little in the RR forums itself, and mostly in the DR/ME zones now, no mod gets a reason to ban me there. :D

[paragraphic l 2]

Looks like BIS is FINALLY following CM's way of doing things :D

http://takeonthegame.com/zombies/

Today we proudly announce the first batch of pre-LC for our upcoming project, 'Take On Helicopters'. Pre-order the pre-lc today, and get free (limited) access to post-release patches!

For the last week, our busy worker-bees have been tirelessly stripping away content from the main game to ensure the best possible return for your support.

Project Lead, Joris-Jan pan 't Land, remarked: "'Take On Helicopters: Zombie Apocalypse', really lets us take the new IP in the direction we really should have gone from the start. We're not big fans of content, but we're huge supporters of loads and loads of cash."

The whole Take On team sincerely believes that realism and fun don't easily go hand in hand; however, zombies and helicopters were made for each other. Everyone is hot for zombies right now. The community want it, we want it, its a win:win for everyone.

Undead Lead, Karel 'hollywood' Moricky noted: "After the rather flat reception to our announce trailer, we felt we really needed to raise our game... by raising the dead! Expect Zombies, nukes, transforming helicopters, and everything from the Tony Scott school of design. Minus the copyright infringement."

The best part about the game, is taking community content, repackaging it, and selling it back. Obviously we have to spend some time breaking things and introducing bugs to keep us busy over the following days and years, but it's a small sacrifice. And you can bet we'll be honking on some phat Cubans while we work.

Zombie Apocalypse will feature:

ZiP (Zombie in Picture) technology

Sling-load executions

Undead Helicopters (dont be flyin' thems in the day!)

A brand-spanking-new 50mx50m Terrain

A free beta version of Arma 4 (note: requires always-on connection)