Mythbusters ArmA edition.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Possible myths busted?

* "You need to have at least one round of ammo to reload it at an ammo truck".

* "You can not reload the commanders turret with more than one mag".

Played some Domino stuff today and was in a hurry to get an M1A2 TUSK reloaded. It was completely dry, and to my disbelief everything reloaded when I parked near an ammo truck. Even the commanders M2 turret reloaded fully... I've never seen that (the .50 cal) happen before, not even with Domination reload script which handled many of these problems.

"No way" I said, and emptied the two machineguns on the UH1H (having a turret system) - landed in front of the ammo truck, and reloaded everything.

Ok, so maybe not a "myth" since they used to be true. But arrest everyone that still claims it to be true. Or arrest me if I misunderstood something :p

Bah, forgot to check countermeasures though.

[Wolfrug 0]

@CarlGustaffa

Probably thanks to a new command introduced with OA: addMagazineTurret. Woo yay rearming individual turrets with magazines and stuff wee!

Anyway, the vanilla rearming still works in the old way (e.g. no new mags, if you use up all the ammo it's gone forever). Learned that the hard way in one of the final OA campaign tank missions :mad:

Regards,

Wolfrug

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Maybe it's fixed with the betas? I tried in editor with M1A2 TUSK and shot out everything. Drove up to vanilla ammo truck, and got everything back.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The Myth about the AI seeing you in grass still gets repeated to this very day.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1715016#post1715016

Kind Regards walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

Still people saying AI see through grass :(

At least test it properly before missposting.

Kind Regards walker

[maturin 12]

The AI does see through grass. Grass cannot occlude the LoS of AI units like rocks, bushes and structures can. Like you say, it simply introduces a numerical probability based on distance, stance and camouflage value.

But if the diceroll doesn't go your way, the AI can see you perfectly well through a veritable thicket of meter-high grass that would utterly blind a player.

You don't deny this in your mythbusters post, you just quibble about the definition of sight.

Grass clutter has no LoD-blocking characteristic. Period.

So AI will always see through grass to some degree.

[ziiip 1]

I dont get it why ppl think AI sees through it. Its a 1 min test with you and 1 AI and a bush that concludes its a negative.

[andromedagalaxe 10]

You can see AI through grass (at least the tops of their heads with the Arma 2 filter) so why shouldn't they be able to see you? Unless you are a sniper that will be engaging targets beyond their visual range anyway, you shouldn't be crawling through the grass. Get to cover.

[seba1976 98]

I dont get it why ppl think AI sees through it. Its a 1 min test with you and 1 AI and a bush that concludes its a negative.

For the purposes of this discussion, 'grass' is not the same as 'bush'. Bushes do block - up to some degree - AI LoS, grass don't. Why people want to trust their virtual life to something that provides NO COVER is beyond me, but that's a different matter.

Back in the OPF days we learned to lie on the floor every single time we heard a shot, and that usually was enough to save our necks. Now it's not like that anymore, let get over it. At first I too ranted about how difficult it was to play with the grass and all, but it get's easier if you change to more realistic tactics: if you hear the shot, run for a cover, don't just lie there like a fool ;).

[walker 0]

Hi all

There is a BIS community wiki with ArmA II Hints and Tips for new players; it details the difference between cover and concealment which is the root of the problem with most people who have miss-learned to play with old fashioned FPS like CS, BF and COD.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA_II_Hints_and_Tips

To seba1976 laying down is a perfectly valid first responce target size reduction method but as you say hard cover is a far better solution. I am still amazed at the amount of players who expect grass, bushes and foot wide trees to stop bullets hitting them.

Kind Regards walker

Edited September 3, 2010 by walker

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Haven't tested in a while, but the problem I had was this (with both me and AI with allowDamage false. I run over a crest. I see AI, AI sees me. We both hit the dirt (err, grass). AI's first bullets miss because he starts shooting while going prone. None of us can see eachother through the grass (team switch confirmed). As I try to roll into cover, AI keeps hitting me constantly with accurate fire. Myself I have to resort to spraying the area. Turn grass off. Same results except I can now shoot back.

It's not how he can hit me through grass, but how he's able to follow my exact moves and deliver accurate fires... Over time... I'm sorry, but I only have one conclusion on this. But again, I haven't tested it lately.

In MP, say Domination where you can set grass per client. Grass is a local effect. It would require net traffic to check clients if they had grass enabled or not. So seems to me it's only a statistical attribute on the surface you're on that makes the difference, not the grass itself. If it was true grass, then it probably wouldn't work as expected in MP due to the locality setting of the grass.

Sometimes I wish a dev could drop by sometimes with a little "how it works" tale :p Tech details about the code instead of a statement that says "clutter is being taken care of" :)

That being said, I can live with it, I can still fight AI, and I wouldn't dream of turning off grass myself.

[dmarkwick 261]

Haven't tested in a while, but the problem I had was this (with both me and AI with allowDamage false. I run over a crest. I see AI, AI sees me. We both hit the dirt (err, grass). AI's first bullets miss because he starts shooting while going prone. None of us can see eachother through the grass (team switch confirmed). As I try to roll into cover, AI keeps hitting me constantly with accurate fire. Myself I have to resort to spraying the area. Turn grass off. Same results except I can now shoot back.

It's not how he can hit me through grass, but how he's able to follow my exact moves and deliver accurate fires... Over time... I'm sorry, but I only have one conclusion on this. But again, I haven't tested it lately.

In MP, say Domination where you can set grass per client. Grass is a local effect. It would require net traffic to check clients if they had grass enabled or not. So seems to me it's only a statistical attribute on the surface you're on that makes the difference, not the grass itself. If it was true grass, then it probably wouldn't work as expected in MP due to the locality setting of the grass.

Sometimes I wish a dev could drop by sometimes with a little "how it works" tale :p Tech details about the code instead of a statement that says "clutter is being taken care of" :)

That being said, I can live with it, I can still fight AI, and I wouldn't dream of turning off grass myself.

My persistent experience of grass & AI is that grass is purely an aesthetic effect with zero ingame functionality other than player eye candy. I don't mind that - if I know about it I can counter it. To be honest, I'd prefer higher terrain resolution than grass anyway. Like everyone else I like the visual effect of grass, but more & more often I find myself turning it off and playing for atmosphere & scenarios rather than for visual effects. Also, I make use of DAC's object placement functionality to spray the mission area with appropriate cover, it works and it's different each time :)

[maturin 12]

Various types of grass does have camouflage value. Try to hide in Utes scrub using a ghillie and see what happens.

If the AI sees you through grass, then don't complain because it's your fault for trying to take cover behind .02 millimeters of moist cellulose.

But it is a problem that the AI cannot be blinded by it whereas we almost always are. In war, the ground is your friend, yet few are the moments in Arma 2 where you can both lie down and fight back.

I think that the AI should suffer serious spotting penalties while prone in grass. It will be another statistical mockup of reality, but it is necessary.

And even then droves of people will complain about cheating AI because they think that they have been spotted just because they here shooting. The AI will shoot just to make you think they've seen you. No joke.

[bascule42 10]

Thanks for that walker. Very interesting. Few good pointers there even for OFP/Arma veterans.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Added myth that "anti TK functions were no longer working due to the enabling command being turned off in a patch" Mythbusted.

Kind Regards walker

[gossamersolid 155]

Hi all

Added myth that "anti TK functions were no longer working due to the enabling command being turned off in a patch" Mythbusted.

Kind Regards walker

No, don't add that because you are wrong. Maybe Suma or another developer will have to confirm, but serverCommand doesn't work since 1.59. They disabled it.

We've tested as well and it doesn't work.

Edited June 30, 2011 by GossamerSolid

[su79eu7k 10]

Hey guys, I tried a simple AI awareness experiment after read this helpful mythbusters thread. During the experiment, I felt 'head position - up or down' is pretty important. can someone check this out?

Edited August 10, 2011 by su79eu7k

[NeMeSiS 11]

Oh, during the experiment, I felt 'head position - up or down' is pretty important. can someone check this out?

I doubt it, the hiding in grass is done mathematically, as opposed to bushes wich actually block the AI's view, so any head movement in the same position (prone, crouch, standing) should make no difference.

Edited July 8, 2011 by NeMeSiS
Why the hell did i replace standing with aware yesterday?

[dmarkwick 261]

I don't think the headup-head down makes any difference, unless it increases your bounding box height maybe which might impact on the statistical chance of your being seen.

[seba1976 98]

I don't think the headup-head down makes any difference, unless it increases your bounding box height maybe which might impact on the statistical chance of your being seen.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Once again, ignorance is bliss. Maybe 50% of the whole simulation is not really happening :cool:.

[metalcraze 290]

From my observations head movement indeed makes no difference. However the movement (and its speed) of everything else does.

Slowly crawling in the grass makes you much less visible to AI (and humans too obviously) than crawling fast.

[su79eu7k 10]

Okay, Now I agree. And may know why I felt like that. Maybe it's because of some geographical. When I testing that noise/ghillie suit/tube effect, (Even if it's not captured on that video) I moved once or twice my position. Maybe it's the reason of my misunderstood. :D

Ignore about head position thing in my video. I will add comment about that.

Thank you all and all your feedbacks. :)

[maturin 12]

Instead of testing head position, aim at the sky with your weapon. This will raise your whole torso above the level of the grass.

[seba1976 98]

Instead of testing head position, aim at the sky with your weapon. This will raise your whole torso above the level of the grass.

It will make no difference. Your visibility will still be mathematically calculated, regarding only the surface and stance you're in. I guess line of sight will be involved, only if that calculation gives "OK for visible", and there are objects (no grass) between you and the AI. Let's not forget though, that there's gonna be a big element of randomness included (to avoid predictability and also to hide all the trickery :D), and any tests should remember that.