Mythbusters ArmA edition.

[WhoCares 0]

Hi Second

Title of thread:

Mythbusters ArmA edition.

Hint Hint

If you want to discuss its validity in the real world there is an offtopic military thread.

Kind Regards walker

The higher ground is still valid for ArmA!

I answered to this already lately in another thread:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1689204#post1689204

You might not like the historic examples ;)

But the important thing is how you are covered by the hill from heavy (e.g. artillery or tank) fire that goes to long or to short. And it is also important to note that the military crest might change depending on the position of the enemy, giving you the "behind the crest" effect also in forward positions.

Not to mention that what worked for sticks and stones and spears and arrows also works for rifle and hand granades.

So all boils down to its proper use, then upper ground is still a solid advantage, also in ArmA.

[MrBump 10]

I have a myth which I am interested in finding out:

Do suppressed weapons in Arma 2 have less power/speed/range than their un-suppressed twins?

Making silenced weapons less powerful is a stupid video game myth, I was just wondering how Arma 2 approaches it.

Thanks!

Wouldn't the lack of power/speed/range come from the use of subsonic rounds? I don't remember the suppressed weapons in the game making a ballistic crack??

[vinc3nt 10]

Somehow I've managed to avoid running into tail rotors in BIS games. And I don't really see any need to start now. Maybe you should just avoid them?

Funny story.... I was in warfare and I building ZU AA emplacements on hill tops, so a US player (my enemy) lands his little bird near my repair truck to blow it up; so i ran into his tail rotor and broke his heli so he couldn’t take off again :D.

He killed me shortly after though :(

[Guest]

Wouldn't the lack of power/speed/range come from the use of subsonic rounds? I don't remember the suppressed weapons in the game making a ballistic crack??

This is my question, I know SD rounds will be less effective, but does Arma 2 simulate suppressed weapons properly, when they are using standard ammo?

Cheers!

[WhoCares 0]

This is my question, I know SD rounds will be less effective, but does Arma 2 simulate suppressed weapons properly, when they are using standard ammo?

Cheers!

From the past I seem to remember that in OFP/ArmA/ArmA2 the properties of the rounds fired are defined by the Mag. that you have loaded, not by the rifle that fires it. If it is still like that, then a standard Mag. will have the same power, independent of whether it was shot with an M4 or M4 SD.

[MrBump 10]

This is my question, I know SD rounds will be less effective, but does Arma 2 simulate suppressed weapons properly, when they are using standard ammo?

Cheers!

Sorry I didn't realise... I had a look in the editor but the sd weapon only seems to accept sd magazines?

[liquidpinky 11]

Sorry I didn't realise... I had a look in the editor but the sd weapon only seems to accept sd magazines?

The ballistics are done through the ammo as far as I know, so using a standard mag on a silenced weapon will make it act like it is unsilenced/unsuppressed.

[MrBump 10]

The ballistics are done through the ammo as far as I know, so using a standard mag on a silenced weapon will make it act like it is unsilenced/unsuppressed.

Oh, right.

[Guest]

The ballistics are done through the ammo as far as I know, so using a standard mag on a silenced weapon will make it act like it is unsilenced/unsuppressed.

Ah ok, that's great news. My mind will be much more at ease when I use suppressed weapons with standard ammo now!

I love the way that having SD rounds/Suppressor really does impact whether or not the AI will detect you.

[walker 0]

Then don't throw those arguments around yourself:

Now if you would have wanted outline it discuss purely of ArmA universe merely then it would have been okay. But problem i see here is that you try to give hint that same thing happens in reality as well and using top sides of hills as advantage is out dated.

Hi Second

I am quite happy to discuss the subject with you, but if we discuss it here using examples from the real world that do not apply in ArmA II we are by definition going offtopic.

While the effects of real world ballistics are simulated some what in ArmA enough that some of the real world effects are adequately shown, your argument appears to be that in the real world the forward slope would have more cover.

The appropriate place to discuss the real world effects is in the Offtopic military thread accordingly I will copy the relevant section with better paragraphing and numbering to that thread so that we may discuss it more thoroughly.

Kind Regards Walker

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

Walker just do the test I told you about in my post. All This extra stuff you see in the videos is not needed. Its so flat out plain to see that they can see you behind two bushes and in the grass.

No myth about it, just plain fact that they can see you. Do my test the way I have it set up and then come back here with a video of it.

If I can figure out now how to make a fraps video smaller I will make my own to show you...

Hi R71

I have provided an example mission from which you may peer review what I am saying and attempt to argue against what I am putting forward.

http://www.downloads.thechainofcommand.net/zips/X_Ray_AI_Mythbusted.zip

Please reciprocate by providing an example showing what you are saying so that I may test it and see if it is true and whether your experiment is a valid one.

Kind Regards walker

[Bouben 3]

If you fire at the AI they aren't going to forget all about you just because you hide behind a bush.

This is unbelievable. Don't you see that AI is not even CONFUSED??? That they without any doubt know EXACTLY where you are?? That they have some kind of magical radar system in their heads and are able to EXACTLY PINPOINT you even if you are in a TALL GRASS?? Or are YOU able to pinpoint ANYTHING even firing a gun if it is hidden in a tall grass??? They SHOULD NOT forget that something happened, but they SHOULD NOT be able to know your position in grass EXACTLY. It is so ******* simple to understand.

I can't believe that this AI behaviour isn't at least strange to anyone...

Do some in-game AI reasearch before you catch a wrong side of the stick again.

Again and again - AI LOS is not blocked by grass after they've ONCE spotted you - X-RAY vision takes place. That's it. This is nothing about AI intelligence. This is simple cheating and makeshift workaround.

Why don't you get it? Am I from Mars or something?

Really, somebody who actually understands in-game AI system, please, help me explain to these people what I mean. I am obviously unable to write it simple and clear enough so they still talk about "realism and intelligence".

Thank you.

[Guest]

The thing is Bouben, the developers at BIS have said themselves that Grass and other objects does block their vision.

And they understand the AI system better than anybody else.

[Bouben 3]

I never said that wasnt the case, but if it did it would be ridiculous. It would mean that you can hide everywhere like you are behind some invisble object and grass doesnt do that. And ingame it would give you a huge advantage over the AI since the AI also doesnt disappear in the grass layer.

I understand your point. That's quite possible, but it could be solved by AI blind fire in your approximate position and so on.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The thing is Bouben, the developers at BIS have said themselves that Grass and other objects does block their vision.

And they understand the AI system better than anybody else.

But it "isn't true" ;) It only helps against detection. So laying in grass will "block" the AI vision to detect you, and this works well (smoke functions the same way). But once they know where you are, they will pinpoint you 100% when laying in grass or hiding behind smoke. You can even go behind full cover and popup somewhere else; try running around the enemy and sneak up while covered by grass - now you stand no chance whatsoever, because your knowsAbout with the enemy is maxed. And if maxed once, there will be no more gradual change anymore.

[walker 0]

Hi Bouben & CarlGustaffa

MYTH: The AI saw me when I was down in the grass, it should not have been able to is busted.

this was of course specifically answered in the very first post of the thread. Please re-read and pay particular attention to the video linked in that section. It clearly shows the AI fires at your last known position and can not track you if you are not visible.

Please provide prooof of what you are saying as I have.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 26, 2010 by walker

[Bouben 3]

The thing is Bouben, the developers at BIS have said themselves that Grass and other objects does block their vision.

And they understand the AI system better than anybody else.

That is NOT TRUE. Everything except grass is blocking AI's LOS. Grassy areas have only some penalty system based on a zone where you are. No LOS system. There is even a ticket on the bug tracker and it is reproduced and confirmed by several testers. Look at my signature links.

Please DEVs, confirm or rule out. Thank you.

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

But it "isn't true" ;) It only helps against detection. So laying in grass will "block" the AI vision to detect you, and this works well (smoke functions the same way). But once they know where you are, they will pinpoint you 100% when laying in grass or hiding behind smoke. You can even go behind full cover and popup somewhere else; try running around the enemy and sneak up while covered by grass - now you stand no chance whatsoever, because your knowsAbout with the enemy is maxed. And if maxed once, there will be no more gradual change anymore.

Thank you, that's exactly it.

---------- Post added at 03:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

Hi Bouben & CarlGustaffa

MYTH: The AI saw me when I was down in the grass, it should not have been able to is busted.

this was of course specifically answered in the very first post of the thread. Please re-read and pay particular attention to the video linked in that section. It clearly shows the AI fires at your last known position and can not track you if you are not visible.

Please provide prooof of what you are saying as I have.

Kind Regards walker

You are right. My apologize. That basicly confirms my simplified explanations about how is system working but there was no reason to attack the myth. Sorry.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Bouben

[Guest]

Dev's have confirmed time and time again.

Send one of the developers a message.

Again, I do not understand why people assume grass makes you invisible? Would you REALLY hide in the grass in real life? Because unless I was in a ghillie suit I sure as hell would not be.

I would definitely love to see a whole squad of US soldiers in full gear becoming invisible because they lay down in some grass. Sure, if the enemy has no idea you are there, and therfor are not looking for you, you might get away with hiding in very long grass.

But as long as they know you are there, it doesn't matter if you lay down, there are still going to be bullets and grenades raping you.

I just do not understand why people hide in grass and expect to disappear.

:confused:

[Bouben 3]

Dev's have confirmed time and time again.

Send one of the developers a message.

Again, I do not understand why people assume grass makes you invisible? Would you REALLY hide in the grass in real life? Because unless I was in a ghillie suit I sure as hell would not be.

I would definitely love to see a whole squad of US soldiers in full gear becoming invisible because they lay down in some grass. Sure, if the enemy has no idea you are there, and therfor are not looking for you, you might get away with hiding in very long grass.

But as long as they know you are there, it doesn't matter if you lay down, there are still going to be bullets and grenades raping you.

I just do not understand why people hide in grass and expect to disappear.

:confused:

Read before you write something.

[Guest]

I think you are the one who needs to read, especially as you seem to think things which are completely untrue and unproven...

[Bouben 3]

I think you are the one who needs to read, especially as you seem to think things which are completely untrue and unproven...

I have nothing else to say. Dream your dream. Have a nice day.

[whisper 0]

This is unbelievable. Don't you see that AI is not even CONFUSED??? That they without any doubt know EXACTLY where you are?? That they have some kind of magical radar system in their heads and are able to EXACTLY PINPOINT you even if you are in a TALL GRASS?? Or are YOU able to pinpoint ANYTHING even firing a gun if it is hidden in a tall grass??? They SHOULD NOT forget that something happened, but they SHOULD NOT be able to know your position in grass EXACTLY. It is so ******* simple to understand.

I can't believe that this AI behaviour isn't at least strange to anyone...

Do some in-game AI reasearch before you catch a wrong side of the stick again.

Again and again - AI LOS is not blocked by grass after they've ONCE spotted you - X-RAY vision takes place. That's it. This is nothing about AI intelligence. This is simple cheating and makeshift workaround.

Why don't you get it? Am I from Mars or something?

Really, somebody who actually understands in-game AI system, please, help me explain to these people what I mean. I am obviously unable to write it simple and clear enough so they still talk about "realism and intelligence".

Thank you.

From a gameplay perspective, I would find that too easy vs AIs, so I don't think too much of this issue. I'm fine with the current implementation.

[Guest]

My dream isn't a dream, because when I play Arma 2 the AI do not cheat...

And I don't just lay down in grass and expect to "vanish"...

[NeMeSiS 11]

I understand your point. That's quite possible, but it could be solved by AI blind fire in your approximate position and so on.

Yeah i guess it could be improved, but for now just imagine that, once you are spotted, the AI knows your position because you disturb the grass or something. :p

And people, i am the guy who made the 'AI cannot see through grass poll' and what Bouben is saying is true. Stop yelling at him. ;)

Though personally i dont see it as a big problem it could use some improvement.

Edited July 26, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[SPC.Spets 21]

richie is right. Look

only the begining of the video is an AI test, the rest is random

idnIViuvyxU

[NeMeSiS 11]

richie is right. Look

only the begining of the video is an AI test, the rest is random

[YOUTUBE]idnIViuvyxU[YOUTUBE]

Thats not what Bouben is saying.

He says that once you are spotted and identified, the effect of the grass will no longer work on you. In that video he isnt spotted/identified and tries to hide in grass afterwards.

The effect of a ghillie suit can easily be read from the 'camouflage' setting in the config and isnt really related to this.