Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

Well, since your suggestion doesn't fix the issue, I guess I should ask why you are suggesting ineffectual workarounds instead of a fix for the core problem.

It does for walking and jogging, but there is no difference between sprinting with your weapon up and sprinting with it lowered (as far as I know). They even have the same animation.

Thanks for the info.

Well, since your suggestion doesn't fix the issue, I guess I should ask why you are suggesting ineffectual workarounds instead of a fix for the core problem.

-i didnt suggest any solution, i pointed out a bug and suggested a related feature, the latter is completely unrelated to a fix... obviously.

p.s. i hereby suggest a "temporary" lowering/raiseweapon button that works as a "hold key" instead of a toggle key, same with crouching. such things would really improve stamina handling.

addition: the raise weapon button works as intendet (temporarily raising/lowering weapon while keypress) only when standing still, while moveing it toggles raiseweapon state... this should work as the tooltip in the config suggests (temporarily raise you weapon).

same applyes for crouch, there is no difference betwean toogle crouch and crouch, please add temporary crouch as an option, especially in 1st person its hard to keep track of all the states and stances... temporary buttons would make stamina management more intuitive.

addition: the raise weapon button works as intendet (temporarily raising/lowering weapon while keypress) only when standing still, while moveing it toggles raiseweapon state... this should work as the tooltip in the config suggests (temporarily raise you weapon).

same applyes for crouch, there is no difference betwean toogle crouch and crouch, please add temporary crouch as an option, especially in 1st person its hard to keep track of all the states and stances... temporary buttons would make stamina management more intuitive.

Considering how dumbed down have been fatigue system lately, I wouldn't even bother with any stamina management. In fact, I thought the server I have been playing on had the fatigue disabled. Only then I realized that it is how it is supposed to work now in vanilla...

Also, why is it so important to have a separated button for temporary raising/lowering a weapon? I thought the left click to ready the weapon, double Ctrl lower it to is good enough...

Also, why is it so important to have a separated button for temporary raising/lowering a weapon? I thought the left click to ready the weapon, double Ctrl lower it to is good enough...

"good enough" for you, thats nice to hear :}

it would be good enough for me if it would work as intended though, the control setup tooltip says "temporarily raise weapon" for a reason.

also there are various reasons why someone would use temporary raise weapon, e.g. to increase combat preparedness... i hold "raise weapon" to save stamina, when i engage an opponent i just stop pressing it, i dont have to wonder what stance/pace im currently in or that i have to click LMB once before the weapon raises.... the weapon simply raises. If the purpose is not obvious to you, its ok, its allready good enough for you so why do you bother?

have a nice day

"good enough" for you, thats nice to hear :}

it would be good enough for me if it would work as intended though, the control setup tooltip says "temporarily raise weapon" for a reason.

also there are various reasons why someone would use temporary raise weapon, e.g. to increase combat preparedness... i hold "raise weapon" to save stamina, when i engage an opponent i just stop pressing it, i dont have to wonder what stance im currently in or that i have to click LMB once before the weapon raises.... the weapon simply raises. If the purpose is not obvious to you, its ok, its allready good enough for you so why do you bother?

have a nice day

No, no, don't get offended. It is definitely fair enough reason from your side. I was just wondering why do you consider it so important. To each his own.

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------

So is anyone else concerned how small effect has fatigue system on gameplay now?

I made some tests. These are all tested with weapon lowered. I tested how long distance you can run before you hit 60% (600/1000) fatigue which is when the vignette kicks in and sway starts to be challenging.

Type		Jog/Sprint	Fatigue recovery per second out of 1000 (Prone/Crouch/Stand)
Civil		4200m/1250m		-48/-48/-38
Guerrilla	1250m/310m		-33/-24/-16
Rifleman	820m/220m		-28/-21/-14
Medic		680m/180m		-27/-20/-13
AA man		480m/130m		-22/-16/-11
Max load	400m/110m		-20/-15/-10

Guerrilla is equip with a TGR-21 ACO with 7 mags and 4 grenades, slash bandolier and AAF fatigues.
Civil is Civilian Hunter.
Rifleman, Medic and AA guys are from BLUFOR
Max load is with maxed load.

Got any results with the BLUFOR standard plate carriers in place of the Slash Bandolier?

I made some tests. These are all tested with weapon lowered. I tested how long distance you can run before you hit 60% (600/1000) fatigue which is when the vignette kicks in and sway starts to be challenging.

Type		Jog/Sprint	Fatigue recovery per second out of 10000 (Prone/Crouch/Stand)
Civil		4200m/1250m		-48/-48/-38
Guerrilla	1250m/310m		-33/-24/-16
Rifleman	820m/220m		-28/-21/-14
Medic		680m/180m		-27/-20/-13
AA man		480m/130m		-22/-16/-11
Max load	400m/110m		-20/-15/-10

Guerrilla is equip with a TGR-21 ACO with 7 mags and 4 grenades, slash bandolier and AAF fatigues.
Civil is Civilian Hunter.
Rifleman, Medic and AA guys are from BLUFOR
Max load is with maxed load.

Interesting. The problem I see is that very rarely has anyone in the game a need to run more than 150 m without a single stop. Because the fatigue does not accumulate over the time you play, it has practically non-existing effect on the gameplay. IRL, you would get tired more and more even if you took regular breaks. In Arma, your fatigue gets completely reset after each cooldown. It is basically useless in most gameplay scenarios.

Interesting. The problem I see is that very rarely has anyone in the game a need to run more than 150 m without a single stop.

Sprint? Probably not. Jog? Absolutely. Many missions require that you jog hundreds of meters, and if you're under fire you can end up in the middle of a field with no hard cover around you for hundreds of meters as well.

Sprint? Probably not. Jog? Absolutely. Many missions require that you jog hundreds of meters, and if you're under fire you can end up in the middle of a field with no hard cover around you for hundreds of meters as well.

Jog for 15 seconds, walk for 3 and repeat until you reach the objective. You will maintain a 5 minute kilometre even with full (blufor rifleman) gear on. That is not a slow pace. And you'll never be more than 5% fatigued, (which takes seconds of rest to get rid of).

I don't think that is unreasonable. In fact, since you could do this for hours on end, without any real fatigue build up, it is actually less limited than real life.

Managing your fatigue takes a bit more than "jog with weapon lowered".

Sprint? Probably not. Jog? Absolutely. Many missions require that you jog hundreds of meters, and if you're under fire you can end up in the middle of a field with no hard cover around you for hundreds of meters as well.

Unfortunately, I doubt the frequency of such cases in the actual gameplay. Fatigue should be more of a factor even in CQB situations. The clunkiness should be felt even after few meters for heavily loaded units. Just like IRL. Heavy loaded units should be slow even when not fatigued because that is how it works in real life. If you have a lot of weight on you, you can be completely fit, but you will still be slow compared to others with light gear.

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:41 ----------

Jog for 15 seconds, walk for 3 and repeat until you reach the objective. You will maintain a 5 minute kilometre even with full (blufor rifleman) gear on. That is not a slow pace. And you never be more than 5% fatigued, (which takes seconds of rest to get rid of).

I don't think that is unreasonable. In fact, since you could do this for hours on end, without any real fatigue build up, it is actually less limited than real life.

Managing your fatigue takes a bit more than "jog with weapon lowered".

Exactly.

Got any results with the BLUFOR standard plate carriers in place of the Slash Bandolier?

Not much of a difference

Guerrilla w/PC	1050m/290m		-32/-24/-16

i have to repeat this: please fix the various bugs in the raise weapon animations...

i have to repeat this: please fix the various bugs in the raise weapon animations...

Do you mean that strange vibration effect when raising/lowering a weapon? I made a ticket a while ago to underwhelming response.

i have to repeat this: please fix the various bugs in the raise weapon animations...

All the raise weapon issues I found:

Raise Weapon keys don't bring the weapon up when crouched.

Vibrating in first person view when lowering or raising rifle. The one that tpw mentioned.

ToggleRaiseWeapon not working properly... Some different scenarios can be found from the related ones. In these scenarios mostly the animations are too long so the character moves a lot while you don't even press anything. You can quickly see why in the animation tab in the editor.

Jog for 15 seconds, walk for 3 and repeat until you reach the objective. You will maintain a 5 minute kilometre even with full (blufor rifleman) gear on. That is not a slow pace. And you'll never be more than 5% fatigued, (which takes seconds of rest to get rid of).

I don't think that is unreasonable. In fact, since you could do this for hours on end, without any real fatigue build up, it is actually less limited than real life.

Managing your fatigue takes a bit more than "jog with weapon lowered".

But why make us jog for 15 seconds then walk for 3? Besides thats no good in a game of KotH when I need to run 100 or so meters to get from cover A to cover B (with a luancher).

I understand it simulates actual stamina but it takes away from infantry game play. I don't want to play a running simulator. I play %100 infantry and trust me it takes away from game play when your dude cant run from point A to point B which is only a few meters away.

What even worse is when you make it to point B and your dude slows all the way down when your 5 feet away and then gets shot at and your a sitting duck. Like my dude couldnt run hard for the last 5 feet in a real life combat situation.

If you want to truly make it a simulator add in an adrenaline factor, where if you get shot at it kicks your stamina backup. Otherwise fix stamina imo please.

Also, in most situations running for 15 seconds then walking for 3 will get you killed while you slow down to walk for the 3 (at least in Wasteland, Koth and CTI). So this only applies when running long distances away from action.

Plus you cant run for 15 seconds with a launcher without being all the way wore down. 10 seconds maybe and your stamina is done. Try playing CTI or KotH without a launcher, its a neccessity.

Its not going to take away from the combat simulation to at least put fatigue back to how it used to be.

Blah blah blah,

blatant hyperbole,

whining based on hyperbole,

then some more exaggeration.

Can we give it a rest after 112 pages, please?

Just drop the rocket launcher with backpack full of ammo and you can run hundreds of meters with no problem.

Blah blah blah,

blatant hyperbole,

whining based on hyperbole,

then some more exaggeration.

Can we give it a rest after 112 pages, please?

Just drop the rocket launcher with backpack full of ammo and you can run hundreds of meters with no problem.

How often do you play infantry Maturin?

I dont need to run hundreds of meters most of the time. Only about 50-100

Try putting on 30kg of kit, sprinting 100m and not slow down at any point. Now put that kit on, walk 5 miles, and then not run, but fire and manoeuvre 100m and not be slower at the end of the 100m than when you started. Or try and run the miles and miles you do in ArmA with 30kg on and see how far you get. Believe me, 30 or even 20kg is more than you think.

How often do you play infantry Maturin?

I dont need to run hundreds of meters most of the time. Only about 50-100

By exaggaration he meant that you can actually very easily sprint for 100m without much of exhaustion. In fact, with a reasonable gear of 6 mags, a couple of nades, FAK, launcher + 2 rockets, you can sprint 100m without slowing down at all and your fatigue level is only 40%. So you're still in good fighting condition when it comes to gun sway and movement speed.

If you're not in that big of a hurry, you can jog 200m before reaching the same level.

Im more familiar with measurements in pounds so i am not sure about kg.

However I agree but that is not my main point.

To try to get my point across I will give an example:

If I look out my window right now I an see a house about 100 meters away. If I was in combat and needed to run from my house to that house I would run hard the whole way and even tho I would be gassed about 70-80 meters, I would find it me to run hard the last 20 meters in a life/death situation.

Where as in Arma 3, my dude gasses out at 80 meters and is a sitting duck.

Im not taking about long distance what so ever. Im talking about running from cover A to cover B.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:19 ----------

By exaggaration he meant that you can actually very easily sprint for 100m without much of exhaustion. In fact, with a reasonable gear of 6 mags, a couple of nades, FAK, launcher + 2 rockets, you can sprint 100m without slowing down at all and your fatigue level is only 40%. So you're still in good fighting condition when it comes to gun sway and movement speed.

If you're not in that big of a hurry, you can jog 200m before reaching the same level.

I can hardly run 3-4 houses down after a full rest with a launcher.

How often do you play infantry Maturin?

I dont need to run hundreds of meters most of the time. Only about 50-100

Almost always. I play SP so there's not always other people to taxi me around.

If you are playing as light infantry, fatigue is no problem at all in combat. There's no situation in a firefight where you should be running over 100m without stopping to take a rest. Because you won't be just resting, you will hopefully be checking corners or bounding from cover to cover.

Seriously, people. The fact that none of you bothers to go out and actually measure the effects of the game's fatigue is proof that you love whining more than anything else, and that you know you have no basis for complaint without drastic exaggeration.

I just dropped a default NATO rifleman on the runway and ran 100m. There are ZERO fatigue effects from this distance. I use Dyslexci's fatigue bar, and there was only a tiny but of green at the end, meaning about 5% fatigue. Until 300m there are essentially no noticeable effects. Even at 400m you have barely any animation slowdown. At 500m you are still only 25-30% into your fatigue bar. You have substantial sway, however. Oh no! Sway! What to do?

Well, I'll tell you.

Lie down and wait 10 seconds.

You heard that right. Ten bloody seconds. Then fatigue reduces to ZERO.

Cry harder.

Edit: And a rifleman in the game can sprint 100m with no animation slowdown, no heavy breathing in audio. You get a little bit of sway, but that sway can still be reduced to zero through breath control.

Even an AT specialist can run that same 100m with no ill effects beyond slight sway. No heavy breathing, no sluggishness. And I can assure you, a soldier carrying a launcher with FOUR 127mm rockets is an utter fantasy. That's 110 pounds of AT weaponry, not counting rifle, ammo, body armor and other gear. (Sprinting the same distance will make you run into problems, with 50% of total fatigue. If you want to avoid fatigue, you have to choose between sprinting and weight.)

I highly recommend that everyone download the fatigue bar from ShackTac. It will make you better players, removing the mystery from the fatigue system and teaching you how to manage it. You will learn valuable lessons about keeping fatigue under control. Recovering from a 400m run is a matter of seconds, but if you bottom out your fatigue, then the recovery is long and slow. You have to manage it wisely.

You get into problems because of overweight loadouts. In real life a machinegunner is just not mobile. He will indeed lag behind on maneuvers. That's the whole reason the M149 exists; it's lighter than the M240. That's why RPG gunners just hold the tube and a single round, while the assistants have the rest of the rockets. And that's just the light stuff. IRL a man with a Javelin or MANPAD on his back is just not combat effective. He needs to set that big ass tube down somewhere if he wants to run around and fight.

Im more familiar with measurements in pounds so i am not sure about kg.

However I agree but that is not my main point.

To try to get my point across I will give an example:

If I look out my window right now I an see a house about 100 meters away. If I was in combat and needed to run from my house to that house I would run hard the whole way and even tho I would be gassed about 70-80 meters, I would find it me to run hard the last 20 meters in a life/death situation.

Where as in Arma 3, my dude gasses out at 80 meters and is a sitting duck.

Im not taking about long distance what so ever. Im talking about running from cover A to cover B.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:19 ----------

I can hardly run 3-4 houses down after a full rest with a launcher.

And how is the game supposed to know that it's only twenty more metres and that your avatar can keep going, or do you just want twenty metres added to the distance you can run, because the game is not going to able to analyse the surrounding map and guess where the player is going to give him an extra boost.

EDIT: I don't know how bloody big these houses are but tests I just did show that:

as a BLUFOR missile specialist AT-which is a bloody big load, around 70-80%

jogging, weapon up: Covered 463m before being forced to stop jogging, after approximately 250m the slowdown in running is obvious,

Sprinting: Covered 125m before being forced to slow to a jog.

as a BLUFOR rifleman

jogging, weapon up: Covered 562m, was still going but then a script in the mission I was using to test kicked in which sort of put paid to that test.

Sprinting: Covered 215m before being forced to slow to a jog

Also as a rough guide, kg to lb means multiply by 2. That's the simplest way.

Almost always. I play SP so there's not always other people to taxi me around.

If you are playing as light infantry, fatigue is no problem at all in combat. There's no situation in a firefight where you should be running over 100m without stopping to take a rest. Because you won't be just resting, you will hopefully be checking corners or bounding from cover to cover.

In KotH, CTI, and even Wasteland (after cities get leveled), I would say you always have to run over 100 meters to get from cover A to cover B.

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

And how is the game supposed to know that it's only twenty more metres and that your avatar can keep going, or do you just want twenty metres added to the distance you can run, because the game is not going to able to analyse the surrounding map and guess where the player is going to give him an extra boost.

Thats my point, the game wont know.

Whether we leave stamina the way it is now or change it back to how it used to be there will still be unrealistic factors. So why not help infantry out a bit and let us run from cover A to cover B a bit safer.

imo that would be more realistic. Who cares if infantry can run far distances faster? That doesnt effect the game really. What effects the game is infantry not being able to run from cover A to cover B without running totally out of stamina 10 feet away from the destination.