How to improve the Close Quarter Combat experience in Arma 3?

IMO jumping should not be implement to move over vertical obstacle. I mean I get about 3 to 4 feet of air if I jump with no gear on. with 50 pounds I would probably be able to jump a foot or so with out risking a stumble. jumping should be more to clear horizontal gaps.

Also the vertical and horizontal distance jumped would have to depend on

weight being carried- if you are carrying more your jump won't be as powerful

fatigue level - if you have been running a while your jump wouldn't be as powerful

Furthermore, jumps should reduce your stamina by a fair amount for 5 - 10 seconds (more weight = more recovery time) and the more weight or fatigue the more likely you are to trip and stumble, making full use of the ragdoll effects. but jumping really doesn't have much to do with close quatrters combat does it...

The graphics, animations and quality of gameplay was very primitive compared to todays games but I would like to see something like this in Arma.

Yes, this kind of ai would be awesome but as choki says it would be quite complex to implement especially with the large number of buildings and circumstances possible in arma. But it would be nice if upon entering a building each ai would at least spread out to the different corners of the room, and once they have cleared it, move towards the windows doors etc. to shoot out.

To do this I think that the position in front of every window and door in a house would have to be mapped out and the corners of rooms would have to be mapped out. I don't know how hard this would be to do.

I, personally, think that CQB is something that is missing and has been missing for too long. The way the AI deals with buildings and obstacles may be the biggest hurdle, though. Frankly if it is going to be a bigger cluster to deal with broken CQB and MOUT due to relatively dumb AI than it is to just suffer without it, I am all for them holding off on it

Frankly if it is going to be a bigger cluster to deal with broken CQB and MOUT due to relatively dumb AI than it is to just suffer without it, I am all for them holding off on it

No way, I strongly disagree. Having every building on the map enterable yet not being able to have good firefights in/between them would be such a waste. I don't think Bi should totally redo ai to be able to do CQC but I think there are small baby steps they can make to greatly improve it. then bugs caused by these tweaks can be ironed out in the alpha. But to just write it off for arma 4 or something would be pretty disappointing to me. If bi doesn't start to improve it (no matter how little the improvement is) it is much more likely never to get fixed.

There are mods to greatly enhance the AI since CWC, and I´ve seen many neat stuff from there. BIS can improve the AI in many ways....

The vanilla game needs improvement, never mind mods. All they can do from that perspective is create ways, scripts, engine fixes to make it easier on modders. But the reality is that you would still have all the small things mentioned earlier that contribute to negative CQB gameplay. That's lacking the details. Thumbs down.

I'd have to agree that CQB/interior fighting needs to be done right by the Pros and the iron is hot for the striking now. The truth is, many people (casual gamers) tried OFP and then Arma1 came out and basically lived in obscurity while Arma 2 has name recoginition and is quite known around many forums both gamers and PC hardware sites alike. Many (that aren't die hards like us) enjoy or at least respect the ambition and scale of the game with the common complaints being well known -clunky animations/lack of enjoyable physics and CQB. Graphics wise the game stands proud on all fronts unless the player lacks the hardware.

That said, all of the above is being addressed except the CQB which we've heard little about. Like Column states:

Having every building on the map enterable yet not being able to have good firefights in/between them would be such a waste. I don't think Bi should totally redo ai to be able to do CQC but I think there are small baby steps they can make to greatly improve it. then bugs caused by these tweaks can be ironed out in the alpha. But to just write it off for arma 4 or something would be pretty disappointing to me. If bi doesn't start to improve it (no matter how little the improvement is) it is much more likely never to get fixed.

This would be a glaring issue to neglect with all of the other improvements forthcoming but taking it on, even at a moderate level, could and would (imho) launch Arma3 into immediate lengendary status for all PC gamers.

vklOq6KFQy4

just include this mod by default as you did with shacktac hud. PROFIT

Funny story about that video. The guy who did the animations works for BIS now.

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

IMO jumping should not be implement to move over vertical obstacle. I mean I get about 3 to 4 feet of air if I jump with no gear on. with 50 pounds I would probably be able to jump a foot or so with out risking a stumble. jumping should be more to clear horizontal gaps.

Also the vertical and horizontal distance jumped would have to depend on

weight being carried- if you are carrying more your jump won't be as powerful

fatigue level - if you have been running a while your jump wouldn't be as powerful

Furthermore, jumps should reduce your stamina by a fair amount for 5 - 10 seconds (more weight = more recovery time) and the more weight or fatigue the more likely you are to trip and stumble, making full use of the ragdoll effects. but jumping really doesn't have much to do with close quatrters combat does it...

Yes, this kind of ai would be awesome but as choki says it would be quite complex to implement especially with the large number of buildings and circumstances possible in arma. But it would be nice if upon entering a building each ai would at least spread out to the different corners of the room, and once they have cleared it, move towards the windows doors etc. to shoot out.

To do this I think that the position in front of every window and door in a house would have to be mapped out and the corners of rooms would have to be mapped out. I don't know how hard this would be to do.

You must play basketball with a 3-4 foot vert. I have a hard time making 2.

Two things that might help cqb and house claering Imo.

First reduce jog speed. It's at olympic levels. Which is handy for covering open terrain fadter (though cars ar a better solution for long distances).

Secondly, perhaps get ai to engage structures where enemy is seen. So target the building with heavy machine gun fire, explodive rounds and chuck grenades into windows / doorways. Much safer than going in unless absolutely necessary.

You don't slow down in combat, you walk at the same speed and you load balance between eachother.

How many movements can one make and how many are properly ported into games? How many are really important for certain battles (open ground/close quarter)? How many can be used without breaking fingers or cluttering the screen? Is the AI able to use these animations/movements too? Should weapons be able to clip unrealistically/arcady through solid objects or is it better if the player/AI get some "punching" feedback if he is too close?

People say they want CQB but when BIS gave them a proper weapon collision inside houses - they started crying like little kids and thus now you can move around inside houses aiming through your M107 like you are moving around with a short SMG (which is for some reason a weapon of choice for all those SWATs, wonder why)

Because they don't want realistic CQB, they want Counter Strike or BF3 or CoD where they can just frag noobz with L33T h34dsh0tZ while flying around corners because they watched hollywood movies and they look like that + smookie's anim pack.

I really hope BIS will bring back weapon collisions in ArmA3. It was a sad loss with BIS catering to BFkidz.

People say they want CQB but when BIS gave them a proper weapon collision inside houses - they started crying like little kids ...

Because they don't want realistic CQB, they want Counter Strike or BF3 or CoD where they can just frag noobz with L33T h34dsh0tZ ...

A false equivalence of epic proportions, which isn't really unexpected coming from you.

People whined - with good reason - because the rigidity of the animations made them (and still makes them) clunky, and not just indoors. The ideal solution would have been to make the animation system less rigid and have it interact more with the environment in a realistic way - but such major changes cannot really be expected for Arma2. Removing weapon collision is obviously less than ideal, but still better than getting stuck because your rifle is pointed rigidly out in front of you like a plank of wood that has been jammed through your torso.

I too hope for proper weapon collision in Arma3, but only if it is done properly. Previously it was done badly, hence the complaints about it.

People say they want CQB but when BIS gave them a proper weapon collision inside houses - they started crying like little kids and thus now you can move around inside houses aiming through your M107 like you are moving around with a short SMG (which is for some reason a weapon of choice for all those SWATs, wonder why)

Because they don't want realistic CQB, they want Counter Strike or BF3 or CoD where they can just frag noobz with L33T h34dsh0tZ while flying around corners because they watched hollywood movies and they look like that + smookie's anim pack.

I really hope BIS will bring back weapon collisions in ArmA3. It was a sad loss with BIS catering to BFkidz.

You're a elitist and need to respect others tastes. Not everyone is into extremely boring long range combat.

Seriously people like you give players like us a bad name.

Animation system has nothing to do with it. Aiming through a long weapon and turning around is impossible inside tight corridors no matter what. Normal gamers had no problem switching to pistols (or taking SMGs if a mission involved some house clearing) inside houses which easily allowed them to do fast turns into any direction. But alas pistol isn't as cool and lethal as M16. Can't have everything.

Nah to me it looks like being the complaint from the same camp which cries about blinding sun, soldiers finishing step and sound suppressors not making gunfire noise disappear 1m away from the soldier (also 1-shot knives carrying which makes soldier enter 100% invisibility mode)

Crappy action games taught people that the game must have everything to make them win with nothing to make them lose.

You're a elitist and need to respect others tastes. Not everyone is into extremely boring long range combat.

Seriously people like you give players like us a bad name.

FYI ArmA has any-range combat

If you think ArmA is boring - what are you doing here?

As for respect - irony much? I should respect you wanting to turn ArmA into BF, but you shouldn't respect me wanting ArmA to be ArmA?

Aiming through a long weapon and turning around is impossible inside tight corridors no matter what.

This could be easily solved by automatically lowering your weapon when not aiming. When aiming I would leave it as it is now (eg. aiming has a priority).

My problem with CQB is that there is not much opportunity to play it. Sometimes I get a taste for L33T SPESHUL FORAZ TOP SECRET INFILTRATION :). Just kidding. I mean something like missoins from R6: Rogue Spear. Also AI just can't into use CQB. I think such expansions not related to main story would be a great projects after ARMA3 when better consoles comes out. By limiting the world you'll improve performance on these shitty boxes and you'll satisfy console kids, me and maybe someone other =).

The DM mission in ARMA2 becomes boring very fast. Once I played several CTFs (CQB) and it was GREAT !!! Lot of fun, seriously. But since that day, no CTF in server list :(.

Animation system has nothing to do with it. Aiming through a long weapon and turning around is impossible inside tight corridors no matter what. Normal gamers had no problem switching to pistols (or taking SMGs if a mission involved some house clearing) inside houses which easily allowed them to do fast turns into any direction. But alas pistol isn't as cool and lethal as M16. Can't have everything.

Nah to me it looks like being the complaint from the same camp which cries about blinding sun, soldiers finishing step and sound suppressors not making gunfire noise disappear 1m away from the soldier (also 1-shot knives carrying which makes soldier enter 100% invisibility mode)

Crappy action games taught people that the game must have everything to make them win with nothing to make them lose.

FYI ArmA has any-range combat

FYI cqb in arma is crap and 99% of the time I'm using optics at 300m shooting AI's who can't see me because I don't like being flanked through walls, long range is bad too because the shots are too predictable and then you have air combat, which is simply spam TAB key and trigger.

If you think ArmA is boring - what are you doing here?

I was talking from another perspective, learn English.

As for respect - irony much? I should respect you wanting to turn ArmA into BF, but you shouldn't respect me wanting ArmA to be ArmA?

Where did I say that? Citation needed.

What I'd like to see from you is some decency instead of labeling every battlefield player as a child, its considerably harder then ArmA2 due to the larger and more competitive community.

This could be easily solved by automatically lowering your weapon when not aiming. When aiming I would leave it as it is now (eg. aiming has a priority).

That's a possible and viable solution - yes. Would be cool to see it properly implemented. Your suggestion has one important flaw though - people can just permanently aim when inside houses which makes a real life CQB disadvantage of M16 compared to MP5 (length) null and void.

Lower weapon when close to a wall and allow turning into any direction, but also don't allow doing 360s with a raised M16 for aiming.

Metalcraze, will you stop trolling peoples threads. People have their right to complain about things that just aren't working - if BIS remove or improve them then that is there decision.

You're wrong yet again. Put a long gun straight along the axis of your thigh or bring it in really close to you, now turn around. Congrats. Now add weapon collision into the game so you do this - to balance it, it could be a slower level of movement for really tight spaces, and job done.

P.S. 99.9% of the things you state are either wrong, misunderstood or twisted.

Here's one for you metalcraze,

Please do not quote images/videos!

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

This could be easily solved by automatically lowering your weapon when not aiming. When aiming I would leave it as it is now (eg. aiming has a priority).

No, doesn't allow for instinctive shooting. Or do you mean it auto-lowers but as soon as you click, you shoot?

What I'd like to see from you is some decency instead of labeling every battlefield player as a child, its considerably harder then ArmA2 due to the larger and more competitive community.

If you want some decency don't make a very mature post saying "nopenopenope get banned" to an opinion that you don't like and then edit it to this.

as for your other question

RO has very fluid movement in CQB. Why can't I blind fire in ArmA?

But seriously for a milsim the movement is very limited in ArmA, why can't I hop either.

so I can look over a wall for half a second, so I can run and jump across things, so I can run and jump into cover etc? Hopping also looks better then goose stepping onto a higher object.

Also BF3's climb over or onto a short object needs to be implemented to smooth out movement, its also realistic. You would not goose step in a heated battle.

Dude maybe because ArmA is a milsim, not a hollywood movie/arcade shooter where soldiers jump around like monkeys and shoot into all directions like mad because there's also a few dozens of kgs of equipment on their backs?

Also if BF3 does it right - why such losses? In real life it's about minimum losses not a battlefield filled with dead bodies which is how BF3 is played.

I asked you - if you don't like the way ArmA is played, what are you doing here instead of having fun in BF / RO which clearly do it right?

People have their right to complain about things that just aren't working - if BIS remove or improve them then that is there decision.

But I don't have the right to complain (my complaint was that there are no indoor collisions anymore) - I'm a troll if I don't agree with the grown up gentleman above who wants to hop and slide and jump over walls like in military simulation Battlefield 3?

No, doesn't allow for instinctive shooting. Or do you mean it auto-lowers but as soon as you click, you shoot?

No. When you're 0.2 meters from wall and you're facing it you can't raise M16 to shoot. I mean: automatically put it down but also automatically put it back as soon as it's possible. And when you're aiming (eg. right mouse click) your hitbox expands (with the weapon) so it'll not be lowered accidentaly when you need fast reaction. So in the end in CQB with MP5 you'll be ready to fire longer than with M16.

EDIT: Aren't SMGs used in CQB mainly beacuse of (lack of) over-penetration? Not related to my comment.

No. If you make a valid comment then stick with it - but talk of COD, BF3, and all the crap incites the topic to go from a 'what are some of the ways to improve it' as per the OP, to arguement heaven. That's all I have to say on that. People will have a difference of opinion though - for instance I don't mind vaulting walls if applicable, hopping is not likely is it? And it's not Arma players cup of tea.

---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

No. When you're 0.2 meters from wall and you're facing it you can't raise M16 to shoot. I mean: automatically put it down but also automatically put it back as soon as it's possible. And when you're aiming (eg. right mouse click) your hitbox expands (with the weapon) so it'll not be lowered accidentaly when you need fast reaction.

I get you now, cool idea.

If you want some decency don't make a very mature post saying "nopenopenope get banned" to an opinion that you don't like and then edit it to this.

as for your other question

Dude maybe because ArmA is a milsim, not a hollywood movie/arcade shooter where soldiers jump around like monkeys and shoot into all directions like mad because there's also a few dozens of kgs of equipment on their backs?

Also if BF3 does it right - why such losses? In real life it's about minimum losses not a battlefield filled with dead bodies which is how BF3 is played.

I asked you - if you don't like the way ArmA is played, what are you doing here instead of having fun in BF / RO which clearly do it right?

But I don't have the right to complain (my complaint was that there are no indoor collisions anymore) - I'm a troll if I don't agree with the grown up gentleman above who wants to hop and slide and jump over walls like in military simulation Battlefield 3?

God forbid you can blindfire in ArmA!!!!! RO DID IT SO IF YOU ADD A COMMONLY USED MANUAVER TO ARMA IT WILL AUTOMATICALLY TURN INTO RO.

OH MY GOD YOU CAN RUN AND SIDE JUMP OVER A SHORT BARRIER, NOPE ITS GONNA TURN ARMA INTO BF3 BECAUSE THEY DID IT RIGHT :(((

Thats all I got from your post.

REALITY CHECK:

NOT EVERY SOLDIER WEARS 2 TONS OF EQUIPMENT AND IS FAT.

I CAN RUN AND JUMP OVER WALLS WITH STEEL TOES AND WHILE EXHAUSTED THEY CAN.

Oh and I almost forgot, in ArmA3 soldiers wear load balancing mechanisms so anything is possible.

The automatic weapon lowering is also done in other games, to good effect. Additionally, in order to leave smaller, lighter weapons with an advantage in CQB, the time needed to raise a heavier weapon after it has been lowered could be made slightly higher (i.e. it's more difficult to raise an M249 than an SMG).

The idea of the weapon still colliding with the wall while sighted is a good one - however I would make two additional suggestions:

1. Make any weapon collision with a wall audible and jar the sights, as in real life. Aural/visual feedback is always helpful. ;)

2. Don't make it entirely rigid - for example if there is a wall to your right and you try to turn into it, your weapon gets pushed to the left until you can turn no further.

EDIT: Aren't SMGs used in CQB mainly beacuse of (lack of) over-penetration? Not related to my comment.

Many reasons. A mixture is true of what metalcraze states, for compactness. Other teams will give you different pro's and con's though.

MP7 is used more heavily now in teams, Mil and LEO.