Recoil (again)

[arthur666 10]

The G3 is worse then the MG3 in full auto due to only weighting 4,5 kg.

The G36 (3,6kg) is still much worse full auto in controllabillty compared to the MG.

You see...the lighter the weapon the worse is controll in full auto.

This makes sense and should be modeled. In game, I tested the DMR (.308) against the M240, which shoots the same round. Standing, aiming at the base of a door 50m away, I take 5 single shots and note how much my aimpoint has climbed. Carefully firing 5 single shots from the M240, I notice the gun has actually kicked up more than the DMR did. Since M240 weighs more than twice what an M-14 does, it seems the recoil penalties are reversed. I'ld like to see more sway and less recoil when firing an MG while standing. I think that would more accurately simulate the problem with shouldering a 13kg weapon.

[Beagle 684]

This makes sense and should be modeled. In game, I tested the DMR (.308) against the M240, which shoots the same round. Standing, aiming at the base of a door 50m away, I take 5 single shots and note how much my aimpoint has climbed. Carefully firing 5 single shots from the M240, I notice the gun has actually kicked up more than the DMR did. Since M240 weighs more than twice what an M-14 does, it seems the recoil penalties are reversed. I'ld like to see more sway and less recoil when firing an MG while standing. I think that would more accurately simulate the problem with shouldering a 13kg weapon.

Yes but there is something wrong with your theory...the M14 does not fire full auto nor has is a rate of 900 rounds per minute. But in fact in prone position there shoukld be no rise at all...the MG3 with 1200 rounds per minute fired supported by integrated bipod was the most stable gun I've ever fired.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Beagle

[arthur666 10]

Yes but there is something wrong with your theory...the M14 does not fire full auto nor has is a rate of 900 rounds per minute. But in fact in prone position there shoukld be no rise at all...the MG3 with 1200 rounds per minute fired supported by integrated bipod was the most stable gun I've ever fired.

I think you might misunderstand me. I was getting at the fact that a single shot from a MG should not kick more than a shot from a comparable rifle due to the mass of the weapons. But this might just be a limitation of the game engine. I really have no idea what parameters are moddeled in the Arma engine.

Anyways, isn't it great that BIS can leave such minutiae for us to hash out while they worry about the big picture?

Actually, the original M-14 did have a full auto setting. I have fired a civilian semi-auto M-14 on a few occasions, and it kicks like a mule. Why they orginally made that thing in full auto, I'll never understand.

Question for you, since you have fired MGs in RL: When you rest one on a wall using the bipod, is the recoil more manageable? I really hope BIS does implement this feature in a future patch.

Edited July 16, 2010 by arthur666

[Beagle 684]

I think you might misunderstand me. I was getting at the fact that a single shot from a MG should not kick more than a shot from a comparable rifle due to the mass of the weapons. But this might just be a limitation of the game engine. I really have no idea what parameters are moddeled in the Arma engine.

Anyways, isn't it great that BIS can leave such minutiae for us to hash out while they worry about the big picture?

Actually, the original M-14 did have a full auto setting. I have fired a civilian semi-auto M-14 on a few occasions, and it kicks like a mule. Why they orginally made that thing in full auto, I'll never understand.

Question for you, since you have fired MGs in RL: When you rest one on a wall using the bipod, is the recoil more manageable? I really hope BIS does implement this feature in a future patch.

With a rested MG weighting like 12kg on bipod you wont really feel any recoil at all...its more like a soft continious push. If you do it right you just have to press your body and shoulder against the butt, thats enough to keep it stable. Thats why I prefered the MG3 all the time in life shooting over the G3 Battle rifle, also chambered in 7.62x51. When in 1998 the G36 was finally introduced it felt like a pea shooter.

Unsupported I was never able to fire the thing (MG3) in any kind that can be called controllable. I was a 72kg 20 year old at that time.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Beagle

[frederf 0]

It does seem weird that the DMR would recoil less than the M240 both fired 1 round from the standing position. I mean there are plenty of other factors in how a body copes with recoil besides just the mass of the weapon and the impulse of the round exiting. There's polar moment of inertia, stamina state of the shooter, where hands are placed, recoil impulse-to-shoulder alignment, and if the weapon is heavy enough to be straining the shooter his leftover strength to compensate for the impulse of a shot might be less.

My fellow 4thIB member, deployed several times to 'stan, makes known how silly it is that any soldier could stand with the M240 at the high ready for any length of time beyond the count of 3 when in ArmA we can do it till the sun sets and rises again.

[wamingo 1]

what about makeing the recoil slightly based on the units skill?

imo it's not proper to differentiate like that in simulation games. If you'd make US specops a bit better than US army, would you also make US soldiers better than takistani soldiers? Or US pilots better than Russian? Doesn't seem right does it?

[MavericK96 0]

I don't know if this has really been addressed, but does the new recoil affect AI as well? (both friendly and enemy)

[giorgygr 61]

imo it's not proper to differentiate like that in simulation games. If you'd make US specops a bit better than US army, would you also make US soldiers better than takistani soldiers? Or US pilots better than Russian? Doesn't seem right does it?

Well..its a nice thought..

You don't have to "categorize" factions ..but "classes"

I m sure a Special forces operator (US/Russian/Martian) has more "talent" in shooting compared with "regular infantry".

A pilot (based on logic) should have Less talent in shooting even from a "regular infantry"..because his talent/job is to fly.

I think this "scenario" has a lot of potential -from Single player missions

to more realism and balance in Multiplayer.

Edited July 17, 2010 by GiorgyGR

[CarlGustaffa 4]

My fellow 4thIB member, deployed several times to 'stan, makes known how silly it is that any soldier could stand with the M240 at the high ready for any length of time beyond the count of 3 when in ArmA we can do it till the sun sets and rises again.

I agree, and how I'd like to solve this is by letting gun carrier always be under influence of stamina - great shake, out of breath, and thus not very combat effective while standing.

But how do I "add stamina effects"? I can create some artificial blur etc, but that would only feel artificial and be prone to complaints.

[Richey79 10]

Well..its a nice thought..

You don't have to "categorize" factions ..but "classes"

I m sure a Special forces operator (US/Russian/Martian) has more "talent" in shooting compared with "regular infantry".

A pilot (based on logic) should have Less talent in shooting even from a "regular infantry"..because his talent/job is to fly.

I think this "scenario" has a lot of potential -from Single player missions

to more realism and balance in Multiplayer.

Sounds a lot like Vault-Tec Assisted Targeting System.

Roll above 15 to hit Takistani soldier for 50 damage points.

I like A2 to be a bit closer to an FPS than this. If my Chernorussian Priest manages to take out an entire FOB of USMC soldiers, then good for him.

[aeggwards1 10]

Tested on Build 72107 (no mods).

I for one prefer the old arma 2 model with added camera shake as it pretty accurately simulates the longitudinal kickback of the weapon.

Some variation could be added according to the stance and the fatigue state but once the shot has been fired the weapon should return near it's last pos very fast (specially while in prone pos).

Having to steer it back once the trigger has been released isn't realistic at all.

I sort of agree with this, at the moment I find the representation to be off putting. I like where BIS is going with this in the latest betas but it is still drastic. If it stays as it is, maybe a option to retain the current recoil (or lack of) or a drastically reduce upwards jump could be added.

[wamingo 1]

A pilot (based on logic) should have Less talent in shooting even from a "regular infantry"..because his talent/job is to fly.

That's a perfectly extreme example of what I don't want to happen, because I don't want to have to pick a pilot class to be able to fly in the missions that I play.

I of course won't mind if there are scripting abilities to give such class limitations and advantages so that others can enjoy them. But I want to have the ability to jump from a M1A1 straight into an SU34 with my takistani civilian character. That might sound incredibly dumb, but it's a part of the sand that is in the box. When you create fixed advantages and limitations you take that sand out.

[rübe 127]

That's a perfectly extreme example of what I don't want to happen, because I don't want to have to pick a pilot class to be able to fly in the missions that I play.

I of course won't mind if there are scripting abilities to give such class limitations and advantages so that others can enjoy them. But I want to have the ability to jump from a M1A1 straight into an SU34 with my takistani civilian character. That might sound incredibly dumb, but it's a part of the sand that is in the box. When you create fixed advantages and limitations you take that sand out.

Nothing would be fixed nor limited. The command setSkill wouldn't magically disappear, you know? So if you would like to play a takistan rambo with uberskills in your mission, you still could do it.

How skill is distributed over sides, factions or even roles is totally up to the missionmaker. So please, if you don't like an idea, fine. But don't try too hard to come up with flawed arguments only for the sake of it. :rolleyes:

[arthur666 10]

My fellow 4thIB member, deployed several times to 'stan, makes known how silly it is that any soldier could stand with the M240 at the high ready for any length of time beyond the count of 3 when in ArmA we can do it till the sun sets and rises again.

Yeah, when I say there should be some sway while standing/shouldering an M240, I mean SERIOUS struggling, it should move a lot after a couple seconds.

[Curry 10]

Yeah, when I say there should be some sway while standing/shouldering an M240, I mean SERIOUS struggling, it should move a lot after a couple seconds.

This would apply to this:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=102987

Better non IS aiming position of guns. You cannot hold the gun the way the soldier does in ArmA all day long.

[wamingo 1]

Nothing would be fixed nor limited. The command setSkill wouldn't magically disappear, you know? So if you would like to play a takistan rambo with uberskills in your mission, you still could do it.

How skill is distributed over sides, factions or even roles is totally up to the missionmaker. So please, if you don't like an idea, fine. But don't try too hard to come up with flawed arguments only for the sake of it. :rolleyes:

rolleyes wins arguments obviously.

And why would I try to make flawed arguments?

And what's flawed about it?

I doubt you can deny it sounded an awful lot like what you wanted was to give specops (or whatever) a lower recoil than others by default - what I called fixed, hardcoded is maybe a better word. ie if both a taki and specop had setSkill 1.0 then specop would still be superior.

You asked for thoughts and I gave them.

[arthur666 10]

This would apply to this:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=102987

Better non IS aiming position of guns. You cannot hold the gun the way the soldier does in ArmA all day long.

I seem to remember in Hidden & Dangerous 2, you could NOT shoulder heavier MGs (Bren gun). They could only be fired prone. This worked pretty well. But I would still like to be able to fire from the hip in case I had a close encounter while moving thru a town to a firing postition. Spray 'n' pray, but no shouldering. That would be cool.

Edited July 17, 2010 by arthur666

[Curry 10]

I seem to remember in Hidden & Dangerous 2, you could NOT shoulder heavier MGs (Bren gun). They could only be fired prone. This worked pretty well. But I would still like to be able to fire from the hip in case I had a close encounter while moving thru a town to a firing postition. Spray 'n' pray, but no shouldering. That would be cool.

Yeah like the old OFP days. I think you could do hip firing. :D

[wamingo 1]

like the old OFP days. I think you could do hip firing

Just when running I think.

[frederf 0]

I'm impressed with this level of control. Of course you're not watching the tracers down range so it's hard to tell how "broad side of barn" his accuracy is but it seems pretty good.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

And I thought

guys were cool :) G36 night shooting, from the hip, actually hitting targets at 700m :D

[nkenny 1051]

The new recoil is fine.

Its not really about realism – arma2 does a poor job at emulating weapon handling in any case – whats important is the change in gameplay.

It is now much harder to put down unrealistic levels of perfectly accurate fire. (basically negating AI at certain ranges). For PvP it gets even better because the new recoil ALLOWS manoeuvring – particularly in OA where cover tends to be scarce.

Animations are the weak link

As more than one person has noted – animations are the weak link of weapon handling in Arma2. Whilst leaps and bounds ahead of Arma1, the lack of smoothly flowing animations and sometimes technically WRONG animations does more to hurt gameplay than many other things.

Pressing the Optics button should refer to ‘shouldering’ the weapon. When stationary the weapon should be looking through the sights. Whilst moving (walking or jogging) the weapon ought to be held at low ready position . Whilst sprinting the weapon should be unavailable.

When not shouldered the weapon can still discharged, though increasing recoil or affecting dispersion would be appropriate.

Currently

:: Optics mode affects movement too much.

:: Optics offers no real advantages to crosshair mode.

:: Optics adds slow and ‘wooden’ animations

-k

Edited July 17, 2010 by NkEnNy

[twisted 127]

Yeah, when I say there should be some sway while standing/shouldering an M240, I mean SERIOUS struggling, it should move a lot after a couple seconds.

there should be more sway on all weapons as soldiers are not mechanical supports.

[-NL-raptor 10]

I totally hate the new recoil system and tbh it ruins the whole game-feeling for me. Sure is looks more realistic at first BUT its not when you think about it. A kick is normal yes, but just like IRL the gun automaticly comes down.

I mean have you ever saw someone shoot and stay still with its barrel up in the air...

The old recoil was just perfect, you had to wait for your crosshair to come down. Now when I fire 3 shots I need to pull my mouse down a meter. Boehoe BI!

[Serclaes 0]

And I thought

guys were cool :) G36 night shooting, from the hip, actually hitting targets at 700m :D

Look at these guys, that's more like it:

Btw, the others are shooting with LLM, the german counterpart of the PEQ2s. You can see the IR dot moving in the distance.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Serclaes