The AI's Biotic X-Ray Vision through certain objects: A bit of research on the matter

[madrussian 347]

While playing around on the excellent looking (and well made) jungle island Razoreniya, I got terribly frustrated by seemingly biotic x-ray vision AI. I thought maybe all I needed to do was sprinkle some default scrubs and weeds in amongst the existing jungle (in the mission area) and see if that helped matters. But no matter how much vegetation I added, I saw no improvement what-so-ever. :confused:

So then I brought up Utes, the huge wideopen area at the airstrip. Then I found the scrub/weed that looked like it block AI vision the best, and made several rows of these things that a human absolutely COULD NOT see through. But the x-ray AI could still pick me off like magic, in spite of the vegetation barrier. At this point, I did a mass copy paste and made these scrubs/weeds maybe 20x thicker... a virtual sea of this stuff... and to my shock and horror, again no improvement what-so-ever. :eek:

I haven't checked in Oxygen, but I think a number of the scrub and weed items are probably missing View LODs altogether. Can anyone confirm missing View LODs in default ArmA2 scrub/weed objects?

IMO, most of the time in ArmA2, AI vision seems somewhat plausible, but when it comes to woods and jungle, sometimes it's just not fun. (btw- I have messed around with the various AI settings, including "spotDistance" and "spotTime"... there's obviously something else going on.)

What do you guys think? Do we need some kind of Durg's for ArmA2?

[gonk 0]

and I thought it was just my poor game play... :). To me they seem to look through walls and plants. You should check out the Dev Bug page and see if it is offical.

[Fox '09 14]

I doubt it's arma 2's default plants that cause this issue. That island uses custom plants and such, which may not have a proper view lod (correct me on this if you can)

Are you sure you were using A2 plants?

[hamis 0]

What do you guys think? Do we need some kind of Durg's for ArmA2?

Of course we do!

[KeyCat 131]

I know what you mean MR! A while back when testing Raunhofer's excellent Thirsk Island I looked into this and as far as I understand the AI's ability to spot you in the grass/clutter is somehow (?) defined in what surfaceType the clutter/grass is drawn upon and not the actual grass/clutter model itself.

I noticed that the Ghillie suit only was really effective against AI detection on the following surfaceTypes CRGrass1, CRGrass2, CRGrassW1 but quite ineffective on CRForest1 and CRForest2 surfaceTypes?

I have no idea about the view LOD's for grass/clutter instead I've been looking for a way to tweak this in the config but haven't found anything in class CfgSurfaces, anyone know if/how this can be tweaked?

/KC

[madrussian 347]

I doubt it's arma 2's default plants that cause this issue. That island uses custom plants and such, which may not have a proper view lod (correct me on this if you can)

Are you sure you were using A2 plants?

I just went in and found that specific plant from my testing again. You need MAP_EU (Mapfact Editor Upgrade), which lets you get to (correct me if I'm wrong), many of the default ArmA2 objects not normally accessible. Under "MAP: EU-Plants", select "B b_salix2s". Of the bush types, that's the meanest looking vegetation I can find! Broad at the base and taller than a man. A complete sea of these things will block out player sight easily.

But try for yourself on the ultra-flat airstrip of Utes. Cut and paste away the hearty "B b_salix2s" and make the mass of bush so very thick you can't possibly see through it! Then place one enemy AI on the other side, facing you.

You'll be dead in seconds! :eek:

I know what you mean MR! A while back when testing Raunhofer's excellent Thirsk Island I looked into this and as far as I understand the AI's ability to spot you in the grass/clutter is somehow (?) defined in what surfaceType the clutter/grass is drawn upon and not the actual grass/clutter model itself.

I noticed that the Ghillie suit only was really effective against AI detection on the following surfaceTypes CRGrass1, CRGrass2, CRGrassW1 but quite ineffective on CRForest1 and CRForest2 surfaceTypes?

I have no idea about the view LOD's for grass/clutter instead I've been looking for a way to tweak this in the config but haven't found anything in class CfgSurfaces, anyone know if/how this can be tweaked?

/KC

Very interesting results KeyCat. :)

Fascinating to know the solution may be more complex than just view-lods. Concerning view-LODs specifically though, do you suspect that grass/clutter is more the problem, or rather actual placed plant objects?

Based on my limited testing, I'd say there's definitely something going on (or rather not going on) with individually placed plants. If we could solve that part, at least in a pinch we could sprinkle some plants about and at least mitigate the all-seeing AI x-ray biotics, until a comprehensive solution is achieved.

What do you guys think? Do we need some kind of Durg's for ArmA2?

Of course we do!

Where is old Durg, these days?

And Durg, if you are reading this, care to weigh in? :D

[NeMeSiS 11]

Stop

.

[Smurf 12]

Vegetation created in the editor = Vegetation created in Visitor (Island Maker) ?

May sound stupid, but who knows...

[Fox '09 14]

for grass, this is your solution (only works for default units though)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=95484

[madrussian 347]

for grass, this is your solution (only works for default units though)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=95484

Thanks for that link. :)

My particular issue is not really with grass though, it's the AI seeing through certain objects, chiefly vegetation objects.

Vegetation created in the editor = Vegetation created in Visitor (Island Maker) ?

May sound stupid, but who knows...

Interesting theory Smurfbr. You may be on to something here. Anyone know any particulars regarding this?

Stop

.

Instead of bitching, why don't you try out the repeatable experiment I detailed above, and then tell me the AI aren't x-ray capable in certain situations?!? Only takes five minutes. ;)

[Fox '09 14]

it may improve your problem, but it wont solve it. I will try reproducing this in the editor

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Stop

.

Agreed.

The chances of AI seeing you is based heavily upon the type of surface you're standing on, not the clutter that appears when activated in your graphics options. This explains why your test is failing utterly when placed on the nice wide open concrete runway of Utes. That is the worst type of 'cover' in the game.

The stance of the AI at the time also has a massive factor in deciding whether or not the AI can see you. More times than I can count I've snuck up within 5m of the AI and not had them see me, I've even had foot patrols walk right past me and I can hear them talking while I lay absolutely still, moving only my head.

If anything, the AI have god-like hearing because as soon as you open fire even once they have an almost direct bearing on your position, continue firing and they'll zero in on you in milliseconds (which makes sense.)

Also, remember that cover and concealment are two different things, an AI will happily shoot at the bush you just ran behind thinking it might make the AI lose you.;)

[madrussian 347]

it may improve your problem, but it wont solve it. I will try reproducing this in the editor

Cool, I'd be interested to see how it pans out!

The chances of AI seeing you is based heavily upon the type of surface you're standing on, not the clutter that appears when activated in your graphics options. This explains why your test is failing utterly when placed on the nice wide open concrete runway of Utes. That is the worst type of 'cover' in the game.

Well, it seems to be at least half true that the AI seeing you is heavily based upon the surface. The other factor is obviously View LODs, which work consistently well with buildings, but for whatever reason not so well with certain vegetation.

I don't really care what surface I'm standing on... with a sea of vegetation between me and the AI and me not having yet even taken a single step, intuitively they should not have any inkling I'm even there!

The stance of the AI at the time also has a massive factor in deciding whether or not the AI can see you. More times than I can count I've snuck up within 5m of the AI and not had them see me, I've even had foot patrols walk right past me and I can hear them talking while I lay absolutely still, moving only my head.

Agreed. Seems like this aspect was better applied in OFP though. In ArmA2, things seem a bit inconsistent at times.

If anything, the AI have god-like hearing because as soon as you open fire even once they have an almost direct bearing on your position, continue firing and they'll zero in on you in milliseconds (which makes sense.)

Very true! IMO, AI hearing could use a general tweak downward.

As far as my editor test goes though, the AI would need ultra-superhuman hearing, as I had not moved, even in the slightest. In this case, my guess is he is actually seeing the player somehow.

[Fox '09 14]

for me, the AI found where I was, however, he did not shoot.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Well, it seems to be at least half true that the AI seeing you is heavily based upon the surface. The other factor is obviously View LODs, which work consistently well with buildings, but for whatever reason not so well with certain vegetation.

See this depends heavily on which vegetation it is you're trying to use. I'm at work at the moment so can't really test much but if you're just aiming for regular grass clutter than yes, that doesn't block AI LOS if it's placed on surfaces that enhances AI detection capabilites. If it's the actual shrubs and small trees, than yes in my experiences these do help in preventing immediate detection, but not by much.

Again, I've never 100% tested this like others have but this is all from my 300+ hours of playing Arma 2 extensively against AI in all soughts of circumstances.

[madrussian 347]

for me, the AI found where I was, however, he did not shoot.

Curious, was that with the "Infantry Stealth and Recognition Skills Mod" (you mentioned previously) running or not?

If you did not have that mod running and still got that result, maybe I'll upload my small test mission, and see if you get the same result I do... X-ray AI opening fire immediately through a visually impenetrable sea of vegetation.

See this depends heavily on which vegetation it is you're trying to use. I'm at work at the moment so can't really test much but if you're just aiming for regular grass clutter than yes, that doesn't block AI LOS if it's placed on surfaces that enhances AI detection capabilites. If it's the actual shrubs and small trees, than yes in my experiences these do help in preventing immediate detection, but not by much.

Not sure what type of object that "B b_salix2s" is exactly, but placing one in the editor produces exactly one object that I would call a bush (and one that looks like it should be a good view-blocker). MAP_EU Plants is divided up into B, G, M, and T, so I'm assuming that B is a bush, T a tree, etc. I guess I'm not exactly sure what "clutter" is in this context, though I've heard a number of people talking specifically about it. Can someone explain?

Let me remind everyone that to me ArmA2 AI view detection seems OK most of the time, which by itself is a HUGE improvement over ArmA1 (which required Durg's to even be playable imo). So yes the system currently in ArmA2 is basically fine. It's just that the AI seems to have x-ray vision when looking though certain vegetation, in cases where it should not matter in the slightest what "surface" you're standing on.

Bottom line is this:

I have produced a scenario with AI seeing through unbeleivably thick vegetation that no reasonable person could say makes any sense what-so-ever. If the system is "working as intended" then in this case, there are underlying issue with the system that I would like to expose and hopefully address/mitigate.

btw- Thanks for all the responses so far. :)

[maturin 12]

Large pine trees with needles at ground level and most large bushes block the AI's view incredibly well. I've gotten used to playing with my mind on what they can probably see, what amount of leaves are rendered. If you use vegetation right, you're practically invisible.

[Fox '09 14]

yes, it is running. But I'll turn it off and see what happens. It also modifies AI hearing capability

[SteveJA 12]

Large pine trees with needles at ground level and most large bushes block the AI's view incredibly well. I've gotten used to playing with my mind on what they can probably see, what amount of leaves are rendered. If you use vegetation right, you're practically invisible.

I cant say i agree with this, i wish i could, but the the other day i was prone, under a tree next to a bush, on a hill (not skylining) with only enough room to poke my M107 out, about 1000m away from the AI. I fired the first shot, killing a poor bloke, and the group went to combat mode. The second shot, taking out the squad leader, resulted with a bloke lying down and putting a ridiculous amount of accurate fire on my position.

Now ok maybe this chap spotted me by chance, a one off, you might say, and he could see me because he had a scope. but no, every time i done this mission i get shot, and this chap has an AK. WTF i wouldnt even see him with a red dot scope at that range, let alone put down accrate fire lol.

[turin turambar 0]

Of course the AI vision/sensory skills are a problem, almost to cheating levles. And it's very easy to have proof.

You don't need to look at a specific behavior of the AI to notice it, in fact. Sometimes, playing a normal mission, your own main character controlled by you will begin to shout "enemy, 200 mts!" "enemy, at left flank, far away!!", four or five times, one after other.

...meanwhile, i don't see anyone in my screen. I begin to focus carefully in the direction of the contact, and i still don't see anyone. And the same sensory system of detection is used by every AI in the game (supposing the allied and enemy AI skill is the same). That's the problem. The AI is capable of seeing people when me (a human) couldn't see anything.

We humans have problems noticing two little green pixels which maybe is moving a bit representing an enemy contact 200 mts away, sorrounded by more green/brown pixels. Even more difficult if you have a high density of objects in screen, with green, hills, forests, bushes, buildings, even if in theory there is correct line of sight, we humans have problems recognizing something small in a scenario so populated and filled with detail. AI doesn't seem to have that problem.

[madrussian 347]

Of course the AI vision/sensory skills are a problem, almost to cheating levles. And it's very easy to have proof.

You don't need to look at a specific behavior of the AI to notice it, in fact. Sometimes, playing a normal mission, your own main character controlled by you will begin to shout "enemy, 200 mts!" "enemy, at left flank, far away!!", four or five times, one after other.

...meanwhile, i don't see anyone in my screen. I begin to focus carefully in the direction of the contact, and i still don't see anyone. And the same sensory system of detection is used by every AI in the game (supposing the allied and enemy AI skill is the same). That's the problem. The AI is capable of seeing people when me (a human) couldn't see anything.

We humans have problems noticing two little green pixels which maybe is moving a bit representing an enemy contact 200 mts away, sorrounded by more green/brown pixels. Even more difficult if you have a high density of objects in screen, with green, hills, forests, bushes, buildings, even if in theory there is correct line of sight, we humans have problems recognizing something small in a scenario so populated and filled with detail. AI doesn't seem to have that problem.

Very very well said! Bravo man. :)

And on top of this general systematic over-detection problem, it seems in addition I have proven with my test mission that AI can actually see through extremely dense vegetation in certain cases.

The question is, can anything be done? Where oh where is master Durg?

[maturin 12]

I cant say i agree with this, i wish i could, but the the other day i was prone, under a tree next to a bush, on a hill (not skylining) with only enough room to poke my M107 out, about 1000m away from the AI. I fired the first shot, killing a poor bloke, and the group went to combat mode. The second shot, taking out the squad leader, resulted with a bloke lying down and putting a ridiculous amount of accurate fire on my position.

Now ok maybe this chap spotted me by chance, a one off, you might say, and he could see me because he had a scope. but no, every time i done this mission i get shot, and this chap has an AK. WTF i wouldnt even see him with a red dot scope at that range, let alone put down accrate fire lol.

I have a hard time getting riflemen to engage at 500, let alone 1000 meters away.

It's also an M107. Use it with ACE and you'll see the massive cloud of muzzle blast dust it kicks up.

That said, default pinpointing of shooters is too precise, but it wasn't a bush issue. The vegetation you see isn't the model that blocks the AI line of sight. Hide squarely behind it if you want to hide, and if you want to shoot, find hard cover.

I find that objects conceal quite well (minus the grass dilemma), but the AI will sometimes see enemies through an entire village, half a forest and thirty meters of solid rock. I don't understand these flukes.

[SWT_Janowich 10]

Durg's for ArmA2?

Why should we need Durg, when ArmA2 is by default way more advanced.

Because the myth is:

Myth busted:

http://www.bistudio.com/developers-blog/arma2-vegetation-progress-2-2_en.html

In the first picture you see the results, color parts shows components, how they're located by Linda - ArmA 2 (right), gray picture original geometry LOD fom Armed Assault (left). See how much more precise it is, much more then the original hand made one in Armed Assault. We hope that it will resolve most of the ingame troubles, such as: "I can see but not shoot, or AI can spot me though dense vegetation...".

So your myth is not valid anymore.

Couldn't have put it better.

Edited June 4, 2010 by SWT_Janowich

[madrussian 347]

Because the myth is:

Myth busted:

http://www.bistudio.com/developers-blog/arma2-vegetation-progress-2-2_en.html

So your myth is not valid anymore.

Oh man, this ain't MythBusters, but if it were, Adam, Jamie, and company would be very unhappy with you (and our friend NeMeSiS) regarding your lack of due scientific process. :eek:

Unfortunately, pointing to videos of cases where AI view blocking does work (or pretty pictures of specific view-lods for that matter) does not in any way negate the issues with AI detection that many of us experience on a daily basis. Indeed, if you start at the beginning of this thread and read the actual premise of what I'm saying, there is no myth here. Only cold hard facts.

In order to specifically show exactly what I'm having an issue with, fire up ArmA2 with no addons running (only MAP_EU.pbo), and then try my test mission which I've uploaded here.

Inside you will find immediate death at the hands of an AI soldier standing on the other side of a massive visually impenetrable vegetation barrier. The AI cannot possibly hear you, because you haven't moved. He cannot possibly see you because I have placed well over 1000 robust bush objects (wide at the base, taller than a man) in a very small area, and the ground is perfectly flat.

If at this point, you are now curious, as I was, move the enemy AI out of the way, restart the mission, and take a good look at the colossal vegetation barrier I have erected. It is so thick, I don't even think you can walk through it! You cannot see any pixels through it! Over 1000 dense bushes so densly packed, that you can't even get to the other side or see a single pixel on the other side, yet the AI has detected and shot you with deadly accuracy in a matter of seconds!!! Something is wrong!!! :butbut:

This bears repeating:

There is no rational explanation why the AI would have any idea you are there. At least in terms of rational human thought, the "surface" in this specific example could have absolutely no bearing what-so-ever.

In other words, if the "surface" is causing the AI to be able to deploy X-Ray vision through a densely packed sea of over 1000 burley bushes, then there is a significant problem with how the "surface" algorithm is being implemented.

Or maybe there's just really something else terribly wrong with AI view blocking in certain cases. One way or the other, I'd really like to get to the bottom of it.

I challenge anyone to explain what is going on in that test mission. And hopefully propose a solution to fundamentally fix the issue.

btw- This thread is really not about strategies to deal with the quirky AI x-ray capabilities. Rather, this thread is an endeavor to understand the root cause of the problem and hopefully fix it.

Thanks for all the responses so far. :)

Edited June 5, 2010 by MadRussian

[nkenny 1057]

It is my suspicion that editor placed objects are not really interacted with by the AI... For instance witness how the AI refuses to take cover behind sandbags -- like they do fences and low rock formations.

Hypothesis -- editor placed bushes are not 'read' by the AI. Therefore do not viewblock.

-k