Wikileaks releases new video, Collateral Murder

[Chunk3ym4n 10]

I am completely shocked by this, good ol Wikileaks.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Placebo

[sudayev 27]

I caught this title while browsing Digg. This well presented material is spreading very fast and stroming the news alll over. Im sure there were many sitiations like the one above when the killers had a great laugh while flying above and massacrating civilians with 'rpg".

I'd remove this slideshow if I were you, man.

[GRS 10]

It really is a shame, but a guy looking around a corner like that with what could easily be mistaken as a weapon from a distance is pretty suspicious. Looked that way to me. Sure its easy to tell what really happened now that we have footage that we can zoom in on and highlight things. Until I saw the replay I had no idea there were kids in that van. I'm not glad that this happened by any means but it seems to me like just another anti-American for the sake of being anti-American video. Things could have definitely gone better and probably should have, but war is hell and unfortunately tragedies like this, and war in general, happen. The hospital thing did make me go WTF...

As for the slide show... worthless editing only to further criminalize American forces. I'm not religious but bless the soldiers and the families of those who died in this incident. I'm sorry for their losses.

[mrbinkels 10]

I for one would like to know if posting this kind of stuff in the off topic forum is appropriate. If it is I'm sure I can find some stuff just as offensive like the Taliban blowing the brains out of woman in the soccer stadium in Afghanistan or Pearl getting his head cut off or how about the Chechen rebels cutting a guys head off two feet from the camera.

[JdB 151]

I for one would like to know if posting this kind of stuff in the off topic forum is appropriate.

I reported it, so we'll find out sooner or later.

I have seen countless videos like this. You only see what it really is (or is trying to presented as) when you see the replay, zoomed in with arrows and text to clarify. 99 out of a 100 cases they find weapons caches or IEDs on site. Accidents happen, however unfortunate, technology is good, but does not allow operators to be flawless.

Also some people in the group do appear to be carrying AK47s (when they're nearing the crossroads, the guys walking behind the journalists), and journalists bunching up with some armed people, is not the smartest things to do in Baghdad.

As for the children not being evacuated to a US hospital, I don't know what the status of the children was at the time, but I can imagine that it's standard procedure to treat all non-critical cases in local hospitals, the same is true for ISAF forces in Afghanistan. Determining the exact condition of the children was impossible due to the situation (a thorough examination in a cramped van that was peppered with ammunition), so they chose the easy way out.

[sudayev 27]

I for one would like to know if posting this kind of stuff in the off topic forum is appropriate. If it is I'm sure I can find some stuff just as offensive like the Taliban blowing the brains out of woman in the soccer stadium in Afghanistan or Pearl getting his head cut off or how about the Chechen rebels cutting a guys head off two feet from the camera.

You wont find such "stuff" here.

I just gave a friendly advice because a guy who posted a raw footage from Moscow metro station (Youtube material) got banned afterwards, so ...

[jblackrupert 14]

There were guys clearly carrying AK's and one looked like a possible RPG near the beginning of the video when they're milling around in a group. Whatever it was

it looked at least 4 feet long and tube shaped unlike a video camera or SLR with

long lens.

The fact of the matter is a LOT of these Arab journalists get real chummy with

the insurgants and Taliban blending in with them to get that extra close shot

taking video and pictures standing right fricken next to them.

Hey stupid, don't stand 3 feet away from the enemy if you don't want to get lit up...DUUUH.

And whats with these people who gotta go investigate every freaking explosion they hear or see.. That building at the end getting Hellfired....

Hint hint. If there is a Apache circling your neighbourhood for a half an hour and then a building blows up

it's probably not a good idea to go inside and check it out. expecially if said building was under construction.

First guy goes in to investigate first explosion..... he gets blown away

and then yet another dude goes in to check that explosion and he gets

taken out with the 3rd Hellfire...

It's like watching someone play a round of Lemmings.

Edited April 6, 2010 by jblackrupert

[JdB 151]

The fact of the matter is a LOT of these Arab journalists get real chummy with

the insurgants and Taliban blending in with them to get that extra close shot

taking video and pictures standing right fricken next to them.

Also they weren't wearing "press" labels, but rather plain clothing.

[jblackrupert 14]

Which makes him a legit target because insurgants are well known to film their own exploits.

[Beagle 684]

Which makes him a legit target because insurgants are well known to film their own exploits.

That's a strange understanding of "legitimation". The reason why Jounalists dont wear PRESS in these regions is because it marks you as target for being abducted.

[jblackrupert 14]

Insurgants film their actions all the time. so yes, some dude dressed exactly

the same a guys carrying weapons is a legit target.

Arab journalists are inbedding with insurgants. They are welcome into the group

Insurgants are more then happy to show their exploits for the cameras and see them on Arab TV.

Edited April 6, 2010 by jblackrupert

[Beagle 684]

Insurgants film their actions all the time. so yes, some dude dressed exactly

the same a guys carrying weapons is a legit target.

Arab journalists are inbedding with insurgants. They are welcome into the group

Insurgants are more then happy to show their exploits for the cameras and see them on Arab TV.

Western Journalist do the same, and in case someone forgott NASTO has no right to be in middle east...NATO is insurgents. You may have missed Mr. Karsain proclaiming that the Afghan goverment will join the Taliban if NATo does not stop its current proceeding.

What now, where's the legitimation?

NATO isNOT, I repeat, is NOT the Iraqi or Afghan Government.

[jblackrupert 14]

Western journalists have the word "PRESS" in large white letters on the front and back

of their KEVLAR vest.

That dude was dressed exactly like the armed dudes and wearing no protection

and mingling with them poking his long lens camera around the corner like an RPG man

would be doing.

He is a Darwin award winner. Thats all there is to say, same with the idiots

who kept entering that building after each Hellfire missle was fired into it.

Seriously. Apache helicopter circling neighbourhood. Hellfire missiles blowing up building repeatedly

is life really that boring that you REAALLY REAAALLY need to go have a looksee after the last 2 guys

got smeared?

A lot of people in that part of the world are either fearless or really stupid

it's kind of hard to tell in a lot of the videos.

Edited April 6, 2010 by jblackrupert

[Beagle 684]

I as talking about "embedded Jounalists", they do the same as "Arab embedded Jounalist". And for sure they are not wanted in this countries by the majority of people there, what makes them invaders. and occupants...not liberators..the "liberators" in their minds are what we call insurgents and terrorists. The moral legitimations for NATO actions in middle east were already lost years ago. But its is obvious that there has to be a war anytime. Were we always at war with Eurasia or wasn't it Oceania before...I already forgott it!

Think twice is magic.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Beagle

[mr_centipede 31]

And you think ARMA2 AIs are stupid for walking into the line of fire over and over, knowing a guy in front of him got shot dead...

[Beagle 684]

And you think ARMA2 AIs are stupid for walking into the line of fire over and over, knowing a guy in front of him got shot dead...

No I always preach that ArmA2 1.05 Beta A.I. is as unpreditable and suicidal as real people are. Everyone who ever was in command of just a handfull soldiers in real operations knows that.

[dm 9]

This makes me sick. But NOT because of what the Apache crew did. What really makes me sick about this is all the people that come out of the woodwork and jumping on the "OMG America is evil" bandwagon.

This video has NO context, nobody commenting on it knows why the helicopter is there or what happens before the video clip.

The Apache crew did exactly what they were supposed to do, and even sought authourisation to engage. Not indicators of unstable murderers IMHO.

Its easy enough for all these anti-war "people" to go "oh its obvious he's got a camera" well sure, its easy enough when you've watched the video 3 or 4 times, from the comfort of your stationary office chair, on a monitor bigger than a postage stamp (the Apache crew is having to watch this on a 5 inch x 5 inch MFD) that isnt being buffeted and bounced around, and when you have 0 risk of being shot at.

Its also easy enough to call them mainiacs and murders based on the out of context comment "c'mon, let us shoot". Taken out of context, sure it seems like they want to just shoot them for the hell of it. Put it in context - theres a foot patrol a few blocks away from the target, and the difference between that foot patrol being ambushed and killed or surviving is whether or not the Apache is allowed to engage their targets. But no, no one ever thinks the Apache crew wants to engage in order to protect their comrades down on the ground. Nooo... they only want to shoot at the targets so that they can murder them.

I saw a comment on this video that went something like:

a righteous man would have waited for sound evidence they had weapons or were an actual threat.

All I can think is I wonder how righteous that commenter would be if he wasnt in the comfort and saftey of his own home, but being shot at, mortared, RPG'd EVERY DAY. 100% sure he wouldnt be so damn righteous then... :mad:

[EricM 0]

Can you remove those videos ?

For some odd reason, videos of people getting killed (legitimate or not is beside the point) makes me uncomfortable. I play Arma because it's a game and it's harmless, not because I want to rehearse for the real thing or because I want to see real people slaughtered.

Thank you.

[Serclaes 0]

I think it's very pushed in the direction of "murder". Key scenes are not shown. For example where the children are being taken out of the vehicle. I don't think that two white blobs in the front seat are children and to be honest, i hadn't seen them the first time either. Only with the digitally zoomed picture.

Then when the quote of the chaplain is shown: it is fully correct. No bradley did drive over the bodies. But which dogooder knows what a bradley is.

Also i hate how they suggest to the uncritic reader that iraqi care might be slower and worse. Because this could mean they are not telling the truth. :j:

In fact it could be quite the opposite.

And what about those guys trying to pick up the wounded? Where i come from you call an ambulance and give first aid. If that's not suspicious.

Oh and insurgents can be fathers too.

Also, i cannot understand at all why somebody would be allowed to carry or even own a weapon in a warzone. After the war in germany was over, weapons were banned. Everybody used to own multiple weapons. Every single building was searched for weapons. Everybody carrying a weapon (including professionals such as hunters or foresters) were "hostile". Nothing like "oh he's relaxed, he's not going to shoot us anytime soon".

And what were they after all? Insurgents with an embedded reporter?

Whats with the other footage? The other apaches gun cam, the bradley's gun cam, the photos taken on the ground? Didn't they fit into the "Collateral Murder" story?

If that's Reuters idea of a scoop, it's more like hitler's diaries than watergate.

[walker 0]

Hi all

While I can see the legitimate news value of the post.

§19) Videos/Movies

No Video/movies, either posted or linked to shall contain any of the following.

Porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage, and other disgusting/explicit footage. If something offensive is being shown in cartoon form it shall be treated as if the imagery were real and not simply cartoon. This also includes team killing or anything glorifying deliberate and or anti-social behaviour on any Public or Private server.

http://forums.bistudio.com/misc.php?do=showrules Follow link to read the original text or click on forum rules

and so I will report it.

The news value could have been achieved and forum rules maintained by simply telling what the story was and allowing people on the forum to find the details them selves. I can see the reason why the OP did it and that they have to accept the consequences, though I think, if they truly have these moral values that they will the courage to accept that in good grace.

Straight up IMHO from the recording of the gunners and pilots voice. The helicopter soldiers, I am presuming they were army Air were, unprofessional in their attitude and that at least was part of the reason for the civilian deaths.

They miss reported what they saw to executive command. In the case of the vehicle saying they had weapons. Constant and frankly childish comments of "Let me shoot."

I can understand the laughing at the journalists body being driven over; it is frankly sounded like hysteria from Adrenalin come down and the joking people come up with as a result of consciously internalising what has just happened and what they participated in. Sorry but that is what people do.

The comments about the children were frankly inhuman.

I think the video would make an excellent training video on how not to do it.

The plane fact is that lax rules of engagement and inadequate training and professionalism were the cause of these and other similar civilian deaths, in all cases the damage to the cause the soldiers are supposedly sent there to achieve is frankly negated by such episodes.

For those commenting and saying the deaths were legitimate I wish to state that IMHO your morals are those I would expect of Al Qaeda and a simple question:

For what reason were the unarmed civilians in vehicle rendering aid to a wounded person a legitimate target?

Kind Regards walker

Edited April 6, 2010 by walker

[Placebo 29]

The rules are very clear. Posting graphic videos of real killings and such = permanent ban.