bn880 5 Posted January 7, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 07 2003,05:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bye bye, children. I've had enough of this. Maybe I'll be back on this thread in the future. Hopefully, not.<span id='postcolor'> Yes maam. With remarks like that, hopefully not. This is not a debating procedure, to call the opposition children when logic fails you. It is just a personal insult generalizing everyone. EDIT: Dealing with Tex privately. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 8, 2003 Meet Omri Sharon the son of Ariel. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In an unguarded moment, Omri Sharon recently told a group of Likud faithful not to lose any sleep over his father's support for a Palestinian state. He explained: "We are not living in a vacuum; there is an international reality. But when you speak softly, you can wield a big stick. Today, after all, we are located in the Palestinian areas, we are violating international agreements, but no one is saying anything. The United States is with us. -- International Herald Tribune<span id='postcolor'> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted January 8, 2003 Thanks for that info Bernadotte, makes me feel better that some part of the truth finally slipped through. When he has a bad day, boy is it bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 9, 2003 Remember this? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 03 2002,19:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israeli troops have shot dead a 95-year-old woman </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Fatima Hasan died from at least one bullet in the back as she sat in a vehicle at a checkpoint outside the city <span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'> The good news is the IDF's Judge Advocate General took action. The bad news is it was only a disciplinary hearing. The good news is the soldier was found guilty of violating rules of engagement. The bad news is he was sentenced to serve only 35 day. The good news is he was also found guilty of lying. The bad news is lying only got him an extra 30 days. The good news is a Civil Rights group protested the verdicts. The bad news is the JAG cancelled the 35-day sentence. The good news is that they are finally launching a criminal investigation and are preserving the possibility of imposing a much more servere sentence. Edit: link to update Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bogo 0 Posted January 9, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 09 2003,03:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember this? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 03 2002,19:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israeli troops have shot dead a 95-year-old woman </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Fatima Hasan died from at least one bullet in the back as she sat in a vehicle at a checkpoint outside the city <span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'> The good news is the IDF's Judge Advocate General took action. The bad news is it was only a disciplinary hearing. The good news is the soldier was found guilty of violating rules of engagement. The bad news is he was sentenced to serve only 35 day. The good news is he was also found guilty of lying. The bad news is lying only got him an extra 30 days. The good news is a Civil Rights group protested the verdicts. The bad news is the JAG cancelled the 35-day sentence. The good news is that they are finally launching a criminal investigation and are preserving the possibility of imposing a much more servere sentence. Edit: link to update<span id='postcolor'> I think this shows how cheap the Israelis value Palestinian lifes. Tragic if you ask me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pukko 0 Posted January 9, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Jan. 09 2003,03:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 09 2003,03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember this? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 03 2002,19:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israeli troops have shot dead a 95-year-old woman </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Fatima Hasan died from at least one bullet in the back as she sat in a vehicle at a checkpoint outside the city <span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'> The good news is the IDF's Judge Advocate General took action. The bad news is it was only a disciplinary hearing. The good news is the soldier was found guilty of violating rules of engagement. The bad news is he was sentenced to serve only 35 day. The good news is he was also found guilty of lying. The bad news is lying only got him an extra 30 days. The good news is a Civil Rights group protested the verdicts. The bad news is the JAG cancelled the 35-day sentence. The good news is that they are finally launching a criminal investigation and are preserving the possibility of imposing a much more servere sentence. Edit: link to update<span id='postcolor'> I think this shows how cheap the Israelis value Palestinian lifes. Tragic if you ask me <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'> Then one may ofcourse argue that the Palestinians are no better (even though the Palestinans also make official symbolic punishments towards, at least some, Palestinians that have been involved in the killings of Israelians). But the main problem with Israel is that it is considered a 'civilised, free, western nation' and as such are obligated to keep above a certain level of, at least illusive, human rights and justice. But as the international relative consensus about Israel clearly show, Israel is not able to live up to the symbolic standard that an western nation should keep. The only way out is probably to create some great new illusions to give the nation a western shine (the problem is that no illusions hold forever though), or to make all the great sacrifices that an end to the conflict demands. The Palestinians, Chechens and Russians (that conflict only as an example here) are not really considered to be holy western people (yet), why they are given more space - Â and worse violence is tolerated due to a number of, mostly symbolic, reasons - by us world leading westeners. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake 0 Posted January 9, 2003 Good points. It's definately true that western media 'pardons' Palestinians more than Israelis which are expected to behave more like a democratic western nation. Understandably it is  hard to maintain these standards to the full when busloads of people are blown up here and then with enormous pressure put on the government and military. I'm not sure are these IDF counter measures leading to any more than these vicious suicide bombings. This endless cycle of violence just keeps on rolling. Only hope is just to sit down, draw the damn borders , raise impregeable barbedwire and concrete walls and get on with the with it. I really see no hope of joint governing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akira 0 Posted January 9, 2003 Syrian Troops Enter Isreal; Fire Upon Soldiers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pukko 0 Posted January 9, 2003 Yeah, and now when I read through my dogmatic speculation (the kind of disturbing way I write most times) I thought about adding some about collective identity The point above is rather that we westeners (almost all of us here are probably such people) have a great part of our identity and most of what we consider to be good things from the rather abstract concept of 'western ideology'. That is, we are a part of the western world wether we like it or not - and as such we can be afraid of ourselves (what we could be like/are like) when we see our equals do some questionable things. Thats a disturbing feeling, and most certainly a great part of the reason why we care and find it important to discuss such questionable things that today primary Israel and USA do; and at the same time dont care much about all other conflicts around the world by non-westerners. Its they (non-westerners) and its us/we (westerners). Humans have always both a collective and private identity... And that takes me to the biggest problem that I see in the mideast conflict; the fact that the conflict probably plays an important role in the Israelis and Palestinians collective identity - a fear of what would be there instead if the conflict ended. What would keep them together, what would their lives be like when the most important thing that influenced their lives is gone? Its a perverse thing indeed to be fond of a conflict, but I really think thats a real problem here (another good example is probably USA - they had to have a new enemy after Sovjet, and got the Muslims). There are some serious theories also about the good things in being united towards a common enemy (an old socioligist, Simmel, started theorising about it some 100 years ago). It has the same function both with working places as with nations. Stuff like efficency (and thereby economic gain) is much improved with this kind of centralising of groups or collectives. So there can also be this kind of economic interests from the governments side that prolongs, or start, conflicts. I recon this is an important factor in USA:s current warwaging... </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Syrian Troops Enter Isreal; Fire Upon Soldiers<span id='postcolor'> Whooa, you really scared me there for a while, dont seem to be all to serious though, or? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 9, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Jan. 09 2003,11:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's definately true that western media 'pardons' Palestinians more than Israelis<span id='postcolor'> Yes indeed. Â Let's just take for example the month of December. The Western media gave full coverage to the slaying of 75 Palestinians, including 14 children and 11 extra-judicially assassinations, and the wounding of 680 others. Â However, the Western media completely ignored the scores of Israelis killed in December. Umm... hang on... Â Were any Israelis killed during December? Â I guess it just proves the point. Â We would probably know about all the Israelis killed in December if the Western media didn't cover it up, right? And I'll bet none of you heard about the Palestinian suicide bombing that killed a bunch of Israelis just a few days ago, right? Â After all, the Western media was real quick to pardon that, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 9, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Jan. 09 2003,11:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Only hope is just to sit down, draw the damn borders , raise impregeable barbedwire and concrete walls and get on with the with it. I really see no hope of joint governing.<span id='postcolor'> I totally agree with you. Â But what about all the Israelis who were allowed to build settlements on the Palestinian's side of the fence? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 12, 2003 Another busy day for the IDF. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Three missiles fired from an Israeli helicopter Sunday missed their apparent target - Islamic militants riding in a car - and instead killed two 15 year-old Palestinian boys and seriously wounded another teen  -- AP<span id='postcolor'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A 45-year-old Palestinian was killed in the Beit Hanoun operation, Palestinian hospital officials said. Relatives said the man walked out of his home to see the aftermath of the raid and was shot in the head as troops withdrew from the area.<span id='postcolor'> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jinef 2 Posted January 13, 2003 I really don't like the idea of a big warhead on the end of the rocket which is fired into populated areas and might just miss! How stupid can you get? In northern ireland the most powerful weapons to stop a car we used were M79s or GPMGs mainly because they don't do a lot of collateral damage in the countryside. I think if the Israelis insist on killing people randomly then they should use something like the SAS where you infilitrate and kill and no one notices until they're late for the fundamentalist support group on friday! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bogo 0 Posted January 13, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Jan. 13 2003,02:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I really don't like the idea of a big warhead on the end of the rocket which is fired into populated areas and might just miss! How stupid can you get? In northern ireland the most powerful weapons to stop a car we used were M79s or GPMGs mainly because they don't do a lot of collateral damage in the countryside. I think if the Israelis insist on killing people randomly then they should use something like the SAS where you infilitrate and kill and no one notices until they're late for the fundamentalist support group on friday!<span id='postcolor'> Well if you ask me i think they are doing on purpose. Using apache , longbows or f16s to kill a terrorist that has almost 99% chance of hiting inocent people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 13, 2003 - see p. 285 - Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted January 13, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 12 2003,13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Another busy day for the IDF. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Three missiles fired from an Israeli helicopter Sunday missed their apparent target - Islamic militants riding in a car - and instead killed two 15 year-old Palestinian boys and seriously wounded another teen -- AP<span id='postcolor'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A 45-year-old Palestinian was killed in the Beit Hanoun operation, Palestinian hospital officials said. Relatives said the man walked out of his home to see the aftermath of the raid and was shot in the head as troops withdrew from the area.<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'> This is terrible, done in full control of a modern military force. <!--emo& EDIT: From this moment, IDF is now ITF in my understanding, (Israeli Terrorist Forces). I will change it back to IDF in my discussions only when thay stop the terrorist acts for an extended period of time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 13, 2003 "Thou shalt not lie to the authorities" is not even one of the 10 commandments but it seems to be more important to Israelis than "Thou shalt not kill." Â Just consider the soldier (p. 283) who got nearly as much of a jail sentence for lying as he did for killing a 95 year-old woman. But perhaps the best example can be seen in what is happening to Sharon, right now. Â His party might lose the 28 Jan election because the public believes he probably lied to authorities. Â You decide! In 1999, Sharon's personal lawyer set up a front company in the US to receive (tax deductible) contributions for Sharon's leadership campaign. Â However, foreign contributions are illegal in Israel. Â When he got caught, Sharon claimed he didn't know about the company and pledged to return the money. Â Btw, the lawyer is now head of the Prime Minister's office. Most of the money was paid back using a mortgage that Sharon's son got for the family ranch. Â However, they didn't really own that ranch. Â When the bank found out, Sharon claimed he didn't know and pledged to return the money. So the bank's money was then returned using a loan Sharon's son got from a British businessman and life-long family friend. Â However, this was again a foreign source and when the authorities found out, again, Sharon claimed he didn't know that his son had borrowed $1.5m from a close friend and pledged to return the money. Finally the Israeli public said "C'mon now!! Â How can a guy who knows so little about what's happening close to him run a country?" Â Of course, it didn't help that the British friend admitted to lending the money directly to Papa Sharon. Â Oops. Meanwhile, Sharon's party has lost about 35% of it's support. So now he must kill as many Palestinians as possible in his final 2 weeks if he is to have any chance at retaining power because, in modern Israel, the 6th commandment has been replaced with "Thou shalt not lie." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake 0 Posted January 13, 2003 Bernadotte, if you'd at least pretend to be somewhat impartial you'd also pay some attention how Palestinian Authority spends all those millions which are donated to it by EU and other countries. PA definately isn't the most anti-corrupted regime in the world. I think you could dig up quite a big pile of dirt from there too. Blaming Israel all the time of all mid-east miseries isn't exactly very fruitful. And what does shooting of 95-year-old woman got to do with Sharon's ranch? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 13, 2003 Some good news: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israeli military authorities have for the first time approached human rights organisations operating in the West Bank and Gaza to help with their investigations into crimes allegedly committed by troops against Palestinian civilians. The unprecedented move follows pressure from the Bush administration for a full explanation of the circumstances in which the Israeli army shot dead a well-known peace activist three months ago. Shaden abu Hijleh, a 61-year-old grandmother, had been working on her embroidery on the porch of her home in Hebron when she was killed, Palestinian witnesses said. Â Her husband, a popular local physician, and one of her sons were wounded by the same burst of automatic fire from an Israeli jeep barely 30 yards away. The army's initial investigation concluded that Shaden abu Hijla had been hit by a stray bullet during rioting, but her family claims to have collected 15 spent rifle cartridges that were fired from the jeep. [...] -- Daily Telegraph<span id='postcolor'> Of course the only reason Washington got involved is because 2 of her children happened to be US citizens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 13, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Jan. 13 2003,13:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Bernadotte, if you'd at least pretend to be somewhat impartial you'd also pay some attention how Palestinian Authority spends all those millions which are donated to it by EU and other countries. PA definately isn't the most anti-corrupted regime in the world. Â I think you could dig up quite a big pile of dirt from there too. Blaming Israel all the time of all mid-east miseries isn't exactly very fruitful.<span id='postcolor'> The PA's new finance minister is a former IMF chief assigned to clean up the corruption. Â He and other PA leaders were to hold a conference on PA reform in London this week, but Israel blocked it. Â Everyone knows how bad Arafat's corruption is, but there's little use in crying over that problem as long as Israel obstructs any attempts to solve it. By the way, theavonlady says that Arafat is the greatest obstacle to peace and I nearly agree with her. Â For me, Arafat still comes second to settlements. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Jan. 13 2003,13:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And what does shooting of 95-year-old woman got to do with Sharon's ranch?<span id='postcolor'> Look again. Â It wasn't Sharon's ranch. Â He lied. Â And in Israel, lying is as bad or worse than breaking the 6th commandment (thou shalt not kill), at least if you are killing a 95 year-old Palestinian woman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 13, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Jan. 13 2003,13:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bernadotte, if you'd at least pretend to be somewhat impartial you'd also pay some attention how Palestinian Authority spends all those millions which are donated to it by EU and other countries. PA definately isn't the most anti-corrupted regime in the world. I think you could dig up quite a big pile of dirt from there too.<span id='postcolor'> Well Blake, I really tried to find some recent "dirt" on PA corruption for you without much success because I keep running into the same name - Salam Fayyad - the new finance minister. Â The NY Times wrote about him 2 weeks ago. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mr. Fayyad, who has a doctorate from the University of Texas, served as a scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank in St. Louis and as an I.M.F. official in Washington.<span id='postcolor'> Even the Israeli government likes him, although not enough to let him attend Tony Blair's PA reform conference. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Everything that Fayyad is trying to do is well appreciated and is the right thing," said Raanan Gissin, the spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon.<span id='postcolor'> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 14, 2003 Trivia Question: Â In which country was Ariel Sharon born? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted January 14, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 14 2003,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Trivia Question: Â In which country was Ariel Sharon born?<span id='postcolor'> I'll be the straight man for this one. Israel? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 15 2003,00:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 14 2003,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Trivia Question: Â In which country was Ariel Sharon born?<span id='postcolor'> I'll be the straight man for this one.<span id='postcolor'> appreciated </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 15 2003,00:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel?<span id='postcolor'> *buzzer sound* Nope... He was born in 1928 just north of Tel Aviv, but Israel wasn't founded until 1948. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
