Mid east

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 29 2002,22:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok I see that he has been removed but still the question why trained soldiers target kids although they only represent a minor threat at all is unanswered. All that deaths among juveniles and kids cant be false fire or victims of undirected fire.<span id='postcolor'>

One thing I thought of is that soldiers have directives in all these cases (rioting, violent demonstrations) to aim for the lower body, in an attempt to minimize injuries to the average participants, who are mostly adults.

When firing to disperse a crowd which is doing anything but standing still, I would assume there are going to be a lot of bullets with a potential of not hitting what was originally in the gunner's site.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In my opinion there is an intention behind it.<span id='postcolor'>

IMO this is nonsense. Oh, I'm sure there are less than a handful of criminal sadists who would do such a thing but most of the soldiers here themselves have to go through psycological counselling after many of these incidents because of the damage they've inflicted - and I'm talking about the justified cases.

I live here, know the education that all the children receive here, whether left or right, religious or secular. Chidlren are not taught to hate. Our textbooks are not filled with venom and no one wants to be a martyr here.

Israel has initiated numerous attempts for peace agreements with the Arabs ever since 1948. There was never reciprocation.

Israel did not start the violence in September 2000. Arafat and the PA did.

Israel does not suggest that Arabs send their children out to fight the enemy and join "the cause". Arafat does.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense to you or your government but the numbers are way to high to be accidents.<span id='postcolor'>

I disagree, considering the number of events, where they take place, the amounts and type of people participating, the obstinence of the crowds to continue (remember, Martyrs are a good thing), etc. This has been going on day in and day out for 2 years. If you ask me, the tolls would have been much higher most anywhere else under the same circumstances.

[theavonlady 2]

For an analysis of casualty statistics on both side of the conflicted, you can read this article.

[Bernadotte 0]

Balschoiw, did you read Chris Hedges' A Gaza Diary from Harper's Magazine?  I know theavonlady did (in April).

Chris Hedges, a reporter for the New York Times, was also their Middle East bureau chief, based in Cairo, from 1991 to 1995.  You probably already know that Harper's is one of the most widely read and respected publications in North America.

I've just found out that a friend of a close friend of mine was with Hedges at the Khan Younis refugee camp when they witnessed the following:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(from page 7)

"Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"

I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's c-nt!"

The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.

A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered—death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo—but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.<span id='postcolor'>

Chris Hedges also tried to find out why this is happening.  Some Palestinians suspect that the main culprits are former Lebanese militiamen who escaped to Israel and are now serving within the IDF.  Don't forget that it was these allies of Israel who carried out the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

[Balschoiw 0]

I know this story and I know that kids and teens are even shot at when they stand alone clearly indentifyable as children. I ´ve seen that killing of kids in other countries and they had a motivation to do so. So it´s not that unlikely that it is intentionally done in other countries also.

[Jinef 2]

Plus the soldiers could just not give a shit about anyone who hasn't got an Israeli flag plastered on their forehead and are so fed by hatred that professionalism is extinct and it's just killing without a purpose which is slightly more annoying than killing with a purpose.

I just don't like the whole idea of people killing each other, it's got some very nasty side effects like hatred for example.

[Bernadotte 0]

Which actually brings me back to my question about the spelling of G-d by religious Jews.

If the "o" is left out because of the 3rd commandment (thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain), then why does Israel keep killing militants in violation of the 6th commandment (thou shalt not kill) when these militants could be arrested instead?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(from Sharon Defends Killing of Militants)

...criticism followed calls from a senior military official last month for the army to arrest militants rather than kill them.

Opponents say killing Palestinian militants can spur revenge attacks on Israelis...

Mr Sharon - who faces a general election next month - told his weekly cabinet meeting that the "targeted killings" would continue.<span id='postcolor'>

...But I suppose as long as he spells God without an "o" he can go to heaven, right?

[theavonlady 2]

More trash from the forum anti-semites, I see, fed by their own kind.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 30 2002,00:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Balschoiw, did you read Chris Hedges' A Gaza Diary from Harper's Magazine?  I know theavonlady did (in April).<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. Response from CAMERA, among others:

http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/hedges.html

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 30 2002,05:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...But I suppose as long as he spells God without an "o" he can go to heaven, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Yuk! Yuk! Yuk!

I don't know where Sharon's going to wind up but I'm happy he's sending targeted terrorists to hell before they blow up another bus or shopping mall or shoot up a central street.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 30 2002,06:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More trash from the forum anti-semites, I see, fed by their own kind.<span id='postcolor'>That's it?  That's all you can offer in response?

Do you honestly believe that I would tolerate what you are doing to the Palestinians if you were a Christian, Muslim or Buddhist?  In fact, I've been much more directly involved in the Sri Lanka conflict without anyone ever desperately accusing me of being anti-Buddhist or anti-Hindu.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 30 2002,06:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Response from CAMERA, among others:

http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/hedges.html<span id='postcolor'>

Your friends at CAMERA did much research trying to discredit Chris Hedges' claims, however they had very little to say against the passage that I quoted:

- the kids were "trying to tear down surrounding Jewish settlements", according to the IDF

- IDF regulars are not issued silencers, according to the IDF

That's it?  That's all they could offer in response?  

CAMERA did not even try to deny the use of loudspeakers to lure the kids.  They said nothing against the possibility of former Lebanese militiamen serving within the IDF.  In fact, I had trouble believing the Hedges story myself until hearing that my friend's friend was also a witness.  By the way, his publisher (in Chicago) refused to print it fearing that the Israeli press office would limit or revoke their credentials.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 30 2002,06:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yuk! Yuk! Yuk!

I don't know where Sharon's going to wind up but I'm happy he's sending targeted terrorists to hell before they blow up another bus or shopping mall or shoot up a central street.<span id='postcolor'>

At least one of your "senior military officials" does not share in your joy of killing militants who could be arrested.  I guess he must be an anti-Semite too, huh?

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 30 2002,07:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More trash from the forum anti-semites, I see, fed by their own kind.<span id='postcolor'>

Ohh my god this anti semitic thing has been turnd around to be a weapon for the jewish people. Almost evry time you critisis Israel's way of handeling palestinians then you must be anti semitic there is no other anwser to that. I think i have almost seen each goverment in europe critisis by israel for being anti semitic when they dont aprove of israels actions. You should think that all europeans are a bunch of nazis going around spreding hate about the jews. LOL

Wake up theavonlady we arent falling for that any more.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Dec. 31 2002,01:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ohh my god this anti semitic thing has been turnd around to be a weapon for the jewish people.<span id='postcolor'>...for some, yes.  But, it is also used that way by many non-Jews.

In my opinion, theavonlady has provided monumental support to the OFP community, for which we can all be grateful.  And her personal contributions to this thread have helped distinguish it from countless lesser MidEast threads across the web.  However, when she tries to silence discussion with such casual use of "anti-Semite" she insults the memory of her relatives and mine who died as victims of real anti-Semitism.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 31 2002,04:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, when she tries to silence discussion with such casual use of "anti-Semite" she insults the memory of her relatives and mine who died as victims of real anti-Semitism. <span id='postcolor'>

I didn't silence anybody. You can foam at the mouth all you want.

And you've insulted the hundreds of recent Israeli (your own people?) dead and the thousands of wounded and bereaved with some of the low level tripe you've posted here.

A true case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And you've insulted the hundreds of recent Israeli (your own people?) <span id='postcolor'>Yea Bernadotte where are you from

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SpeedyDonkey @ Dec. 31 2002,12:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yea Bernadotte where are you from  <span id='postcolor'>

[mr. Duck 0]

Another one? How many canadians are here?

But on a serious note. How many of you in here actually live in Israel? (I guess avon lives there so she don't have to answer that)

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 31 2002,06:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...the low level tripe you've posted here.<span id='postcolor'>

Would you like to discuss it, Ma Kettle?

[Bernadotte 0]

From yesterday's Washington Post:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">An 18-year-old Palestinian high school student who had just finished nightly prayers at a Hebron mosque was detained Monday night by Israeli border police in this bitterly divided West Bank town. Family and neighbors said today that his badly beaten body was found by friends 20 minutes later, lying in the middle of a road a half-mile away.

[...]

Several Hebron residents said that although it is unclear how Abu Hamediye was killed, they and other Palestinians here recently have been subjected to a technique called "the lottery." In the lottery, they said, border policemen order apprehended Palestinians to pick from folded pieces of paper that have different punishments written on them -- such as "broken leg," "smashed hand" or "smashed head" -- and then administer the selected punishment.

An Israeli newspaper, Yedioth Aharonoth, described the lottery in a story published Dec. 22.

[...]

Rajabi, the man who found Abu Hamediye's body, said he, Abu Hamediye and two other men had just left the mosque about 7:45 p.m. when a jeep with four border policemen pulled to a stop nearby and called for them to approach. For some reason -- perhaps because he was the youngest, Rajabi said -- the Israeli troops focused on Abu Hamediye, who was bundled into the back of the jeep and driven away.<span id='postcolor'>

[Homer Simpson voice]

Mmmmmmm... tripe...

[/Homer Simpson voice]

[Bernadotte 0]

And from today's Guardian:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[..]

When an army patrol swept along the road on December 3, shopkeepers quickly brought their shutters down. But the soldiers wanted to know who was in the barber's.

"We were scared," said Mr Maswadeh. "When the soldiers pay attention to you, they always abuse you. We did not want to open the door."

So the four Israeli soldiers grabbed the owner of the neighbouring grocery shop, Bilel Abu Qwaider.

"They told me, 'We are going to break your bones and destroy your shop if you don't get your neighbour to open his door,'" Mr Abu Qwaider said. "They were pointing their guns at me and threatening to shoot everyone inside. I begged Basem to open."

The barber realised he had little choice. "There were five of us, and they took us one by one into the street and beat us," Mr Maswadeh said. "Then they brought us back in and a soldier ordered me to sit in the barber's chair."

"He grabbed the electric clipper and brought it very slowly down on my head. It was very painful. I was bleeding because he was ripping my hair out. I knew I was in trouble when I opened the door, but I never imagined this."

Word of the beatings at the barber's shop quickly spread, and a crowd began throwing stones at the soldiers. It was then that Mr Maswadeh and two friends were marched outside and used as shields as the soldiers fired into the crowd.

When the mob backed off, the incident took another strange twist.

"They took pictures of us. They took some pointing their guns at us, and some resting their guns on our heads. One of the soldiers had a picture taken of him using one of my friends as a chair," Mr Maswadeh said.

The army's attorney general says he has ordered a military police investigation into the case.

[...]<span id='postcolor'>

[theavonlady 2]

With rare exception, it's called lying (original report here) by both sources and the "free" press. After all, they already chose sides a long time ago, so who cares about facts.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The army's attorney general says he has ordered a military police investigation into the case.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 02 2003,07:o7)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With rare exception, it's called lying...<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, he's probably lying.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 02 2003,08:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The army's attorney general says he has ordered a military police investigation into the case.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 02 2003,07:o7)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With rare exception, it's called lying...<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, he's probably lying.<span id='postcolor'>

Lol! Go ahead, ignore everything else. Typical.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lol! Go ahead, ignore everything else. Typical.<span id='postcolor'>

With a large amount of the worlds media (Non Jewish/Muslim Propoganda), condemning the actions of the IDF, don't you think there might be the smallest, tiniest, possible chance, that it might actually be true.

But then I'm sure a blind unwavering ability to look facts in the face will get us through, eh?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Jan. 02 2003,12:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With a large amount of the worlds media (Non Jewish/Muslim Propoganda), condemning the actions of the IDF, don't you think there might be the smallest, tiniest, possible chance, that it might actually be true.

But then I'm sure a blind unwavering ability to look facts in the face will get us through, eh?<span id='postcolor'>

Which facts? The "massacre " in Jenin, as a small example?

Once again, who's ignoring "facts in the face" here? It isn't me.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">HonestReporting was started at the initiative of the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah, <span id='postcolor'>

Non bios ehhh?