Mid east

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

Snicker

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, that is not the "arab argument."  It may be Palestinian Arab land, but not because they were there first.<span id='postcolor'>

Then tell me, what is the arab argument? The Israeli argument is simple: it's our land now.

Do not the arabs think the disputed areas are theirs? Have they not also stated that all of Israel is theirs too? Why did they want Israel "destroyed" in 1967? The current fracas is about the "disputed" areas but it's really about Israel as a whole. They do not want any co-existence with Israel period. None, zilch, nada. This comes from the mouth of the Egyptian President, May 1967.

You certainly have heard the term "occupied" territory being used by the Palestinians. Hells bells, some unreconstructed Southerners today still think the former Confederate States are "occupied" by Yankee rule. When one uses the term "occupied" to define or describe their status, that implies that the current government of said territory is illegitimate, and that the land "rightfully" belongs to the residents. Certainly, Israel has as much claim and right to the area as anybody else. Israeli rule is legitimate.

Besides this, they won the Golan heights, the Gaza strip, and the west bank fair and square in the 67' war.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Umm... how many years ago?<span id='postcolor'>

While the boundaries changed over the years, Israel had control of most of the area dating back to 1,000 BC or some 3,000 to 2,500 years ago. Don't even try this argument. The last occupants of this land are no more entitled to be there than those that occupied it 200 or even 2,500 years ago. Remember, I am not arguing that Israel has the sole right to the land but that the arabs do not. The arabs think they do as well as some in the international community. That is why I referenced old maps to show that indeed, Israel also controlled these areas many years ago. I think the Canaanites were there first.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Doesn't it concern you that your theory breaks international laws against gaining territory by force?

<span id='postcolor'>

I don't give a shite about international law in regards to this debate. It has nothing to do with how nations form. International law has some utility in today's world but it has not been around that long in comparison to the age of western civilization. I doubt the Romans gave a rat's rear-end about international law.

I maintain that if one can gain territory by force, then they own said territory until they are conquered. Is there a nation/state on the face of the earth that came into existence without being conquered or conquering another? If there are, there are not many.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ottoman Land Code of 1858<span id='postcolor'>

? This was only 144 years ago. Certainly this law deprived peasants of not only title to his land but also the right to live on it. Indeed some of the land was sold to Jewish settlers.

So what? It's no secret the Jewish people sought to re-take their land. They have obtained this goal.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not.  Perhaps you didn't notice the question mark at the end of my sentence.

<span id='postcolor'>

Your "question mark" was noted. Question mark or not, indeed you were putting words in mouth. I never mentioned Hitler’s name.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The US has not threatened to withhold aid from Israel for ~11 years.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you sure? I am almost certain that the US has at least threatened to withhold military aid from Israel. Remember the fracas about Israel using US-made choppers to attack the Palestinians? I recall the US issuing a warning that if they did not stop, they would not get any more. Warning/threat, these are synonyms. It's all the same.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This argument could only be used for the past 15 months.  How was the US obstructing Israel before that?<span id='postcolor'>

In regards to my specific example, yes it has been used since the WTC. But certainly US obstruction goes back at least 10 years to the Gulf War.

Before that, there was certainly less US obstruction.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes it is. <span id='postcolor'>

No, it really isn't.

[Jinef 2]

I just noticed that in your profile you had decimal points in latitude/longitude.

Don't you use degrees then seconds like normal people wherever 35.7074400000 LAT, -78.6222200000 LONG is?

And when you say -78.*** do you mean east or west of Greenwich?

sorry i'm offtopic i just not used to seeing lat/long in . form

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 19 2002,17:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...like normal people<span id='postcolor'>

(Edit:  Either Raleigh N.C. or a Tibetan glacier.  I bet it's the glacier.)

[Jinef 2]

lol

okay then like normal freaks who are sad and boring and have to learn this stuff for their job!

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't you use degrees<span id='postcolor'>

decimal degrees? If you can decipher that location, that's where I am. Used GPS.

Hey folks, read this on the new US weapon. O shit, this is off-topic isn't it? Read it anyway: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/nosleep021218.html

[Badgerboy 0]

Not again! Lets hope they don't just pump people up full of evil sounding chemicals like last time....

They don't even knowwhat will happen though. Youcould stay awake for several days, and then just drop dead.

You'll die through lack of sleep quicker than through lack of food.

[Jinef 2]

badgerboy is in the RAF i think. are you on the experiments list? lol

[Jinef 2]

So how accurate is that then? 100 metres? I think the US goverent ones have a system where they lower the accuracy in wartime to stop the enemy gaining an advantage.

I really can't be bothered trying to decipher that. Considering i'm used to OS maps that have degrees/seconds and each second is roughly a kilometre.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So how accurate is that then? 100 metres? I think the US goverent ones have a system where they lower the accuracy in wartime to stop the enemy gaining an advantage.

<span id='postcolor'>

There's a way around that though. Simply use differential GPS, it's more accurate that standard GPS. All you need is a radio transmitter and a receiver in the aircraft. It's the system we used to use in the Sqn, and we had no problems with it.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 19 2002,22:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So how accurate is that then? 100 metres? I think the US goverent ones have a system where they lower the accuracy in wartime to stop the enemy gaining an advantage.<span id='postcolor'>

The US military doesn't want others to gain full use of their GPS system.  However, it's not difficult to get around the distortion that is preprogrammed into each day's data stream.

Most Central European GPS surveyors will set up on 3 known points near the target survey area.  By collectiong location data for those known points along with each of the survey points the distortion can be removed.  Contacting a full array of 7 or more satellites in this way can produce xyz coordinate accuracy down to 5 mm.

[bn880 5]

Okay, this is about Afghanistan, where else to put this

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Associated Press

BAGRAM, Afghanistan ? A U.S. soldier was killed in a firefight with enemy forces in eastern Afghanistan on Saturday, the U.S. military said.

The soldier's unit came under fire while on patrol in the eastern province of Paktika, the military said in a statement at Bagram Air Base, the headquarters of U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

"The firefight started when enemy forces engaged U.S. forces at approximately 4 a.m. (Saturday),'' the statement said. "The soldier was initially medivaced (sic) to a forward operating base in eastern Afghanistan and died during surgery.''

The identity of the soldier was not given.

Two other soldiers were injured in two separate incidents in the last 24 hours, the statement said.

In one incident a U.S. special operations soldier was hurt Friday afternoon when rockets were fired at a U.S. compound in Asadabad, the capital of Afghanistan's northeastern Kunar province.

"Two rockets were fired at the base and impacted outside the compound. A third rocket landed near a sleeping tent, injuring a soldier,'' the U.S. military statement said. "The injured soldier was medivaced (sic) to Bagram Air Base and underwent surgery. He's currently in stable condition. His injuries were not life-threatening.''

Immediately after the incident, Bagram sent an A-10 aircraft to Asadabad. It strafed the area with 2,000 rounds from its 40-mm guns to try to flush out the enemy attackers. It was not known whether any of the attackers was hurt or killed.

The other incident occurred near Spinboldak in southeast Afghanistan, where a soldier participating in a weapons training exercise with the Afghan military was hurt while trying to correct a misfire on a rocket propelled grenade launcher.

His condition was stable after undergoing surgery at Bagram Air Base.

Fifteen U.S. servicemen have been killed in combat or hostile situations in Afghanistan since the U.S.-led anti-terror campaign began last autumn.

The most recent fatality was on May 19.

Two U.S. special forces soldiers and their Afghan interpreter were injured in the capital Tuesday when an Afghan man hurled a grenade at their unmarked jeep on a crowded street.

That attack was the first-ever grenade attack on American forces in Kabul.

<span id='postcolor'>

So little news from there I tohught I'd post the ongoing resistance news.

I trust most have heard that the U.S. Pilots were on drugs (speed) at the time of the friendly fire kill of 4 Canadian soldiers. Tapes have been aired publically, and it is clear the pilots judgement is not existant on speed.

[bn880 5]

U.S. Pro-Israel Pro Massacre policies

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Associated Press

UNITED NATIONS ? The United States vetoed an Arab-backed United Nations resolution that would have condemned Israel for the recent killings of three UN workers, calling it one-sided.

Twelve other Security Council members -- including U.S. ally Britain -- voted in favour of the resolution and two abstained Friday.

The resolution expressed "grave concern" at the killings by Israeli troops and demanded Israel "refrain from the excessive and disproportionate use of force in the Occupied Palestinian territories."

It also demanded Israel comply fully with its obligations under the Fourth Geneva Convention, which deals with the protection of civilians in time of war.

But the veto by the United States -- one of five permanent council members with veto power -- means the resolution was not adopted.

Syrian UN Ambassador Mikhail Wehbe, the only Arab member of the council, rejected U.S. attempts to amend the resolution to eliminate the reference to Israel's disproportionate use of force. It also dropped the demand for Israel to comply with the Fourth Geneva Convention.

U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte earlier called the Syrian draft a "one-sided" resolution "heaping criticism on one party."

UN Mideast envoy Terje Roed-Larsen told the council Monday the killings of the three staff members who worked for the UN Relief and Works Agency highlighted the larger issue that Israeli soldiers must "refrain from the excessive and disproportionate use of deadly force in civilian areas."

Israeli soldiers shot and killed Briton Iain Hook on Nov. 22 during a gunbattle with armed Palestinians on the West Bank of the Jordan River. The army said its soldiers mistook a cell phone Hook was using for a weapon and gunmen had entered the walled UN compound. The UN relief agency denies gunmen entered the compound.

Two Palestinian school employees working for the relief agency, known as UNRWA, were among 10 Palestinians killed in Gaza on Dec. 6.

The Syrian resolution also would have expressed "deep concern" at Israel's destruction of a UN World Food Program warehouse in Beit Lahiya, in the Gaza Strip, on Nov. 30 "in which 537 metric tons of donated food supplies intended for distribution to needy Palestinians had been stored."

Syria has taken a very tough position against Israel and in support of the Palestinians during its first year on the council.

In a surprise move, it supported the Nov. 8 resolution giving Iraq a final opportunity to co-operate with UN weapons inspectors or face possible military action. Its backing made the resolution unanimous.

But Syria voted against a resolution Dec. 13 that condemned the Nov. 28 "acts of terror" against Israeli targets in Kenya. Ten Kenyans and three Israelis died when a vehicle packed with explosives plowed into a hotel near the Indian Ocean port Mombasa. Missiles were also fired at an Israeli aircraft filled with tourists that took off from Mombasa airport but narrowly missed.

Syria's Wehbe said his government condemned the Kenyan attacks but could not accept Israel being linked to efforts to combat terrorism while "ignoring the terrorism the Israelis are committing daily and particularly against the Palestinian people."

<span id='postcolor'>

Last time the U.S. vetoed or actually withdrew from a UN conference over puny Israel, it took a few days to get the WTC attackers to take action. I wonder if it gave them further motivation?

[Bernadotte 0]

Yesterday:

The US blocked a UN resolution that would have called upon Israel to comply fully with its obligations under the Fourth Geneva Convention, which deals with the protection of civilians in time of war.

Today:

An 11 year-old Palestinian girl was gunned down by an Israeli soldier.

[Bernadotte 0]

I've just noticed something (else) odd in what TFTO said about the 1967 war:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 17 2002,14:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">After the war, Israel gave the arabs in those re-captured areas the choice to either stay and live under Israeli rule or leave.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you saying that those who stayed in the occupied territories received Israeli citizenship?  If not, then what do you mean by "live under Israeli rule" considering that Israel is a democracy?

Question to theavonlady, McH or anyone else who might know:  What sort of passports are carried by Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza?  What sort of citizenship do they declare when (if) they travel?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 26 2002,13:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Question to theavonlady, McH or anyone else who might know:  What sort of passports are carried by Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza?  What sort of citizenship do they declare when (if) they travel?<span id='postcolor'>

Jordan officially annexed the WB in 1950 and grants all residents there Jordianian citizenship.

Till today, Egypt refused to grant citizenship to Gaza residents or permit them to move elsewhere or with relative ease across the border.

[Supah 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 21 2002,23:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Today:

An 11 year-old Palestinian girl was gunned down by an Israeli soldier.<span id='postcolor'>

"gunned down" is a bit harsh i feel. This makes it seems like the soldiers shot the girl intentionally. The news report doesnt make clear what the circumstances were. "Shot and killed" would be better. For all you know she may have been walking behind a fire fight and a stray bullet may have killed her.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 27 2002,04:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For all you know she may have been walking behind a fire fight and a stray bullet may have killed her.<span id='postcolor'>

According to the UP/Reuters reports I saw, she was about a kilometer away from the scene of intense shooting.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 27 2002,03:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"gunned down" is a bit harsh i feel. This makes it seems like the soldiers shot the girl intentionally.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree "gunned down" sounds harsh and I'm glad that someone has finally disagreed with its usage.  However, I do suspect the young girl's shooting was intentional for a couple reasons.

You don't even have to believe the many independent reports (including some IDF testimony) of non-combatants being used as IDF target practice.  The numbers speak for themselves.  Of the ~1700 intifada deaths on the Palestinian side, over 40% have been non-combatants and around 25% of the total have been children.  There are simply too many so-called accidents.

And even if many of the shooting deaths have truly been unintentional then why aren't Israeli soldiers or settlers ever victims of such stray bullets (especially considering how many of these gunfights occur along settlement borders).

Instead, a stray bullet is able to travel a kilometer to find and kill a young girl.  In OFP Resistance terms, it's like Victor Troska shooting it out with his motorcycle mechanic and accidentally killing the guy in the petrol station.  

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 27 2002,14:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, I do suspect the young girl's shooting was intentional for a couple reasons.<span id='postcolor'>

Who cares what nonsense you concoct in your dreams.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And even if many of the shooting deaths have truly been unintentional then why aren't Israeli soldiers or settlers ever victims of such stray bullets (especially considering how many of these gunfights occur along settlement borders).<span id='postcolor'>

Most terrorist attacks are hit and run and most don't get near densly populated areas.

Almost anything terrorists hide behind in Gaza and the West Bank is smack in the middle of everybody and everything.

Know your terrain before making more wild assumptions. There's a firefight going on and the Israelis have nothing better to do than to position a sniper near the scene of the battle and aim at a child a kilometer away. Sure!

[theavonlady 2]

Another thing. Adults as well as kids in the PA have been in the constant habit of cheering on, participating and spectating whenever there's a battle.

In Israeli towns, there are well rehearsed and practiced routines of taking cover in the most secure area of a house possible.

[Supah 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 27 2002,13:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Another thing. Adults as well as kids in the PA have been in the constant habit of cheering on, participating and spectating whenever there's a battle.<span id='postcolor'>

Ive seen that on CNN and i find it sickening. What kind of parent are you when you allow your kid to even go outside when there is an incursion? Let alone cheering or participating. Like with the rock throwing kids .... do these kids their parents know that they are there? I sure as hell wouldnt let my kid do that. Rocks may not be as deadly as bullets but a well placed rock still can do serious damage to a person (once they stoned people to death). If the IDF replies with non-lethal rounds (rubber bullits and teargas) they do not mean to kill children but remember these rounds are meant to incapacitate a adult .... they probably are strong enough to kill a kid. Also I've seen footage on Dutch TV. Just after there was kid shot when he was watching a firefight from his parents balkony. What the palestinian media didnt tell was that he was carying a Real looking replica of a AK-47 (a toy). I believe a round from an AK kills you wether it is fired by an adult or a child.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 27 2002,15:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the IDF replies with non-lethal rounds (rubber bullits and teargas)...<span id='postcolor'>

...Then the Mitchell Report would not accuse them of using live ammo on demonstrators.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 27 2002,15:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also I've seen footage on Dutch TV. Just after there was kid shot when he was watching a firefight from his parents balkony. What the palestinian media didnt tell was that he was carying a Real looking replica of a AK-47 (a toy).<span id='postcolor'>And which media organisation told you that?  Link?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 27 2002,13:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who cares what nonsense you concoct in your dreams.<span id='postcolor'>What may be a dream for you has become a nightmare for the Palestinians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 27 2002,13:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Most terrorist attacks are hit and run and most don't get near densly populated areas.<span id='postcolor'>So?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 27 2002,13:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Almost anything terrorists hide behind in Gaza and the West Bank is smack in the middle of everybody and everything.<span id='postcolor'>Yes... you'd think the terrorists would have learned by now that hiding behind innocent civilians offers scant shelter from IDF bullets.  Although it certainly worked for the terrorist who hid behind that girl while she was walking home from school.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 27 2002,13:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There's a firefight going on and the Israelis have nothing better to do than to position a sniper near the scene of the battle and aim at a child a kilometer away. Sure!<span id='postcolor'>Nobody here has said that.  The kind of target practice I'm referring to happens like this (warning - foul language).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 27 2002,13:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In Israeli towns, there are well rehearsed and practiced routines of taking cover in the most secure area of a house possible.<span id='postcolor'>Uh-huh...  The IDF apparently adopt a different approach when protecting Palestinian civilians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Earlier, Israeli troops entered the village of al Khader on the outskirts of Bethlehem, ordering Palestinian residents out of at least 25 homes.  -- just another BBC article<span id='postcolor'>...And woe to the Palestinian who dares take cover in the most secure area of a house possible.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The body of an elderly man was found under the rubble of one of the demolished homes

70-year-old Ashour Dab was not given enough time to leave the house before it was demolished<span id='postcolor'>

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 27 2002,15:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Rocks may not be as deadly as bullets but a well placed rock still can do serious damage to a person<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Before we leave, we visit the office of Dr. Mahmoud al-Madhoun, the hospital's director. He hands us plastic bags filled with bullet fragments he has taken out of his patients. All have the dates, the types of wounds, and the names of the victims printed neatly on the outside. Of the 1,206 killed and wounded, he says, 655 were under the age of eighteen. He cannot understand why soldiers would fire at children.

"In thirty years of practice," he says, "I have never treated a patient who died after being hit by a rock."  Chris Hedges article

<span id='postcolor'>

[bn880 5]

Yes it's very hard to kill someone with a rock (throwing by hand) from a distance. Obviously if you are sitting on someone a large rock will be a diffrent story.

I suppose if they threw some sort of lumps of metal with good practice that would be fatal from a good distance. Rocks are too light, especially on soldiers with body armor.