When should AI subordinates use the "bounding overwatch" movement

[maturin 12]

No need for an example mission, here is how it stands.

While driving back to FOB Manhattan in Bitter Chill, I take fire from a Chedaki jeep. I escape to the base and go through the cutscene with Simmons from Team Saber. Cutscene over, I order my team to get in the humvee.

Well, they're still in automatic Danger mode. It takes a good thirty seconds for them to load up. They drop on their stomachs, stare at the jeep, then take turns running tactical circles around it and scanning the horizon. The machinegunner is dead to the world, preparing to suppress the enemies a mile away who shot at him five minutes ago. After an interminable period of ducking and weaving or doing plain nothing, after spamming "It's SAFE, it's SAFE, LOAD UP DAMNIT!" commands, they manage, with herculean effort, to get in the car.

This is unplayable, BIS.

By all means, make the AI act realistically as they can when under someone else's control (although so far that means moving at the speed of a large slug), but when I'm in charge, I want them to be drones.

[froggyluv 2130]

I have to agree with Maturin. Although maybe not unplayable, there hasn't been a SP mission I've played since the AI was changed some 3 months ago, where the mission doesn't come grinding to a standstill over one of these "freezes".

Please BI, take the steps needed to either turn the AI back to it's previous state or add some meat behind the "disengage" command so that we can once again have some control over the pace of the mission.

[Eclipse4349 0]

Bounding overwatch would probably be ok if it was only when in a firefight or when ordered into "danger" mode, as long as they can be ordered out of it, and as long as when they are in bounding overwatch, the one doing the bounding MOVES, as in, runs, not walks slowly while out in the open. Bounding overwatch with slow, careful movement is only really useful in a CQB environment. In other situations, out in the field, being out in the open and moving slowly while not behind cover just get you targetted.

Glad to see you guys at BIS taking our opinion into account. The current bounding overwatch, especially the fact that the AI never stop doing it once you make contact, is a game breaking issue when you have subordinates to command!

[CarlGustaffa 4]

AI should react better to being put in aware or safe modes, and break overwatch procedure. That should be fairly easy to implement, if it isn't already. But what I often experience when I'm assuming command over units after leader is killed after an engagement, is complete lack of formation. Something is severely broken here.

The other night I spent an insane amount of time waiting for my units to return to formation. I put them at safe and stand up, but nothing seemed to happen. I finally gave them a "move to" order, right in front of me. Then they came running. Now, doing a new return to formation order, they would walk like morons around me never being able to find their spot.

Question: Are the (assumed) "problems with overwatch" related to (or caused by) the problems with units not being able to find their formation location?

[Eclipse4349 0]

In my experience, the AI rarely line up in formation properly. They start out ok, but at some point they just lose their minds. After that, they never line up oriented in the direction the leader is facing, they line up in a column when you put them in a line, stay in a column when you subsequently put them in a column trying to get the line, form a wedge that is facing 90 degrees to the side of where the leader is oriented, etc etc. I have found nothing to fix it, and it seems to be a totally separate issue than the neverending bounding overwatch.

Even with all the bugs that are still around, the AI is much better than other games that I have played that put you in control of AI squadmates. Good luck fixing the issues, BIS!

[mchide 0]

If i crouch and only if i raise my weapon

[Protegimus 0]

This clearly needs some thought, as consideration must be given to the circumstances when bounding overwatch is used. fabrizio_T gave very good recommendations, so I'll use them as a reference and try to expand:

- When somebody is firing at us:

If the fire is effective (i.e. people are being injured/dying) or anything but small arms, then don't fanny about making pretty formations - get behind any available cover as fast as possible and start returning fire if appropriate

If just suppressive fire from small arms, then use short, quick bounds to counter or withdraw according to orders, with the caveat that if under control of a human player, take cover, return fire and only move to where the human player has ordered.

If under suppressive fire from a heavy calibre weapon or any kind of artillery, then the priority should be to get in hard cover.

- When we see an enemy (being not too far!):

Maybe 600m or less, so that it will be only area suppression from small arms

Longer bounds to be used, only when not under fire

- When I order them "Danger"

- When I order them "Take cover":

If under fire, then as above.

If not engaged then larger 15-20m, quicker bounds should be used, especially on open ground.

When i lay down or crouch i wish my squaddies simply doing the same:

perhaps this can be controlled to when the squaddies are within 20m of their section leader, avoiding the problem of having guys changing stance at inappropriate times or places.

Another extremely important factor is that AI are currently using compact column formation during their bounds, presumably to avoid the hold up caused by them using concealment when moving in any other formation - this needs to change to a compact line formation as AI are killing each other when the rear covering party fires (the advancing front party is directly in their arc):

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and also because it makes them very vulnerable to enemy fire.

Slow movement in urban, except when crossing open ground.

There's probably more, please feel free to expand where necessary.

Protegimus

Edited June 6, 2010 by Protegimus

[Eclipse4349 0]

Bounding overwatch has little usefulness in open ground, and most of the time is only a hindrance. Unless you have the enemy pinned and are in relatively close quarters, it is largely useless unless the bounds are much, much longer. Short, slow bounds in open ground just make you a target. The AI either need to SPRINT from cover to cover over much longer distances while in bounding overwatch, or need to not use it at all unless the leader orders them to do so.

[nkenny 1051]

Simple Solution:

:: AI should at all times try to maintain squad cohesion with teamleader.

:: AI should only attempt ot utilize bounding overwatch when ordered to MOVE or ATTACK independently of the squad.

This way you avoid the nasty 'suicide squad leader' tendency and the sheer frustration of having to wait on your squad. Ideally this should keep them moving on open ground as well.

-k

Edited June 7, 2010 by NkEnNy

[fabrizio_t 58]

After having played quite a bit with ArmA2 AI here is my compromise solution for AI movement, case by case:

1. GROUP COMMANDED IN DANGER MODE, NO THREATS IN SIGHT

When a leader (player) arbitrarily puts its group in DANGER mode with no enemy in sight, any single unit should:

a) case leader not moving or slightly moving:

• Unit should completely ignore leader's "micro" movements. No need for constant formation adaptation in absence of some sensible leader movement;
  
• Unit should step into nearby cover/concealement, loosely respecting formation, when leader is stopping;
  
• Unit should go prone or crouch when in cover or mimic player stance;
  
• Unit should scan horizon and be ready to open fire;
  

b) case leader moving quickly:

• case leader "near" (*): Unit should follow the leader, crouched, through default "bounding overwatch" movement, loosely respecting formation; it should prefer "crouched" stance to "standing" stance when moving.
  
• case leader "far" (*): Unit should catch up individually with the leader, sprinting if necessary, loosely respecting formation, ignoring "bounding overwatch" rules; it should move the same way as in "AWARE" state, but it should prefer "crouched" stance to "standing" stance when moving. "Standing" stance should be used for sprinting only.
  

(*) "far" mean individual unit distance from leader exceeds a predefined distance threshold, viceversa for "near".

2. GROUP NOT IN DANGER MODE, SPOTTED NEARBY THREAT

When a threat is spotted and it's close enough, automatically group should go in "DANGER" mode while still being able to react to leader's movement.

When a threat comes into sight while the group is still undetected, units should act as above ("GROUP COMMANDED IN DANGER MODE, NO THREATS IN SIGHT"), except that units should avoid sprinting and should prefer crouched position when moving, prone position when stopping;

• Unit should initially move to cover in prone position, to avoid detection;
  
• Unit should move slowly;
  
• Unit should not initially open fire unless ordered by the player or detected/threatened;
  

3. GROUP DETECTED BY NEARBY THREAT AND/OR UNDER FIRE

When detected and/or under fire, group should automatically go in "DANGER" mode while still being able to react to leader's movement.

Units should act as above ("GROUP COMMANDED IN DANGER MODE, NO THREATS IN SIGHT"), except that they may not care at all about formation when (initially) looking for cover;

• Unit wounded or suppressed should be able to throw smoke grenades as a countermeasure;
  
• Unit in cover may move to different cover if heavily threatened by enemy fire;
  
• Unit being fired upon should temporarily switch to prone "stance" for some time;
  

When a group is caught into fire its units may or may not be in cover, depending on situation!

Below is my a all-around suggestion for units behaviour in this case:

• Let some kind of units (eg. machinegunners, grenadiers, ..) having enemy in line-of-sight lay counter-suppressive fire from where they are (even if not in cover). In the meantime:
  
• other units quickly move into cover, stick to it and prepare to give suppressive fire themselves; finally:
  
• units in cover provide suppressive fire to allow machinegunners, grenadiers, ... to step into cover;
  

PLAYER COMMANDS

Player commands should always have higher priority thant default AI mechanics and should be able to override them.

For example you should be able to change AI behaviour to "AWARE" even if in "DANGER" mode, if really needed.

SOME MISC SIDENOTES

• AI units will benefit from getting faster animation transitions, as Solus already showed with SLX mod;
  
• AI units will benefit from getting faster movement speeds;
  
• AI units still show very weak behaviour in CQB, they react, aim and fire slowy. Things seems to be worse with 1.06 betas;
  
• AI overall aiming precision should be lessened, at least for low-to-medium skill units, or AI tactical movement routines will remain useless.
  

Another extremely important factor is that AI are currently using compact column formation during their bounds, presumably to avoid the hold up caused by them using concealment when moving in any other formation - this needs to change to a compact line formation as AI are killing each other when the rear covering party fires (the advancing front party is directly in their arc):

Hi Protegimus,

no cheap solution here, i fear: a moving group may flank or be threatened by the flank for example. In this case "compact column" would be better than "compact line" ...

Edited June 7, 2010 by fabrizio_T

[nikita320106 0]

why no one of you guys don't tried switch to "aware" mode

instead post here long ? instructions ?

how to make from arma another one COD-like-shooter????

[Fireball 16]

why no one of you guys don't tried switch to "aware" mode

instead post here long ? instructions ?

how to make from arma another one COD-like-shooter????

The problem is, if above in the poll stated "additional reasons" come to pull, you can (still) not override the "Danger Mode" (bounding overwatch) using the Aware/Safe Mode order.

IMO it should be kind of "reset" with the Aware Mode order and only (permanently) overridden with "Safe Mode" though.

EDIT:

Another problem, which the poll does not address, is that if you're getting under fire or order "Take Cover", the whole crew starts the bounding overwatch and might be pinned with slow (bad!) tactics in the middle of a large field without any cover and you can't get them to MOVE THE HELL OUT!

Edited June 7, 2010 by Fireball

[nikita320106 0]

in the middle of a large field without any cover and you can't get them to MOVE THE HELL OUT!

shouldn't think like cs player) think tactical))

~-7-8, ~-3-5,

or

WW, Z, ~-7-3, ~-1-1, ~-7-8, ~7-2, ~-3-5

[fabrizio_t 58]

3-5 means CS player to me :)

What's tactical in engage at will?

Your are basically telling AI "do it on your own" and on open terrain the result will be: team slaughtered.

[nkenny 1051]

@Nikita

Setting your squad to prone and engage-at-will is all well and good -- and not really the end all of tactics... But all the Bounding Overwatch in the world isn't going to save your squad if engaged on open ground in front of a Heavy MG or Static Grenade Launcher.

You'll also note that both myself and fabrizio argue that an AI in 'danger' mode should avoid raising stance above crouched. Automagically out of preference.

-k

[nikita320106 0]

3-5 means CS player to me :)

so what?? fusk my tactic:cool: think yourself) nothing here for share long instructions instead of share simple solutions)) all of us here already get alot combination with alot behaviours/positions/speeds/combatmodes

any combinations already available for players by ~123 and any of them is available by scrinting//

nothing for complining but alot for some free creative tactics art) or just simple scripting lessons))

if engaged on open ground in front of a Heavy MG or Static Grenade Launcher

shure:confused: sprint under mg fire is really good idea) try to play some mp)) skilled bots at least)

You'll also note that both myself and fabrizio argue that an AI in 'danger' mode should avoid raising stance above crouched

yea) I'm think is really good time for some scripting magic))

[fabrizio_t 58]

Sorry nikita, i can't understand whether you're just trolling or simply missing the whole point ;).

I'll try to explain it short and easy:

1. Some issues, such as the inability to override AI settings, are not fixable by script;
   
2. Trying to solve by script some other core AI inconsistencies will lead at best to unneeeded overhead. Way better to fix them into core / native fsm functions;
   

Edited June 9, 2010 by fabrizio_T

[nikita320106 0]

sorry I was a bit rude

but I believe that the current AI is a near best possible

and after some polishing can be near perfect

moreover

I see too many claims related to the submission

that the player should be a center of run-n-gun-game universe, somethin like uber soldiers commander

I do not think so

and I think yours motives can make wrong turn in game progress

sorry if I broke yours long list of complaints/ but all what I whant to say is

who wants - seeking opportunities

who doesn't - seeking reasons

--

this thread would be more interest in A&D DISCUSSION section

[Protegimus 0]

1. GROUP COMMANDED IN DANGER MODE, NO THREATS IN SIGHT

2. GROUP NOT IN DANGER MODE, SPOTTED NEARBY THREAT

Agreed

3. GROUP DETECTED BY NEARBY THREAT AND/OR UNDER FIRE

When detected and/or under fire, group should automatically go in "DANGER" mode while still being able to react to leader's movement.

Units should act as above ("GROUP COMMANDED IN DANGER MODE, NO THREATS IN SIGHT"), except that they may not care at all about formation when (initially) looking for cover;

• Unit wounded or suppressed should be able to throw smoke grenades as a countermeasure;
  
• Unit in cover may move to different cover if heavily threatened by enemy fire;
  
• Unit being fired upon should temporarily switch to prone "stance" for some time;
  

With the addition that if under small arms fire, AI should aggressively return fire to suppress and usually when not under a human players command, seek an opportunity to withdraw and regroup.

When a group is caught into fire its units may or may not be in cover, depending on situation!

Below is my a all-around suggestion for units behaviour in this case:

• Let some kind of units (eg. machinegunners, grenadiers, ..) having enemy in line-of-sight lay counter-suppressive fire from where they are (even if not in cover). In the meantime:
  
• other units quickly move into cover, stick to it and prepare to give suppressive fire themselves; finally:
  
• units in cover provide suppressive fire to allow machinegunners, grenadiers, ... to step into cover;
  

Line of sight was mentioned but this shouldn't be a requirement. AI have enough weapons that can be used to provide indirect fire, such as GL, frag, RPG/LAW and MG and they should be used more frequently in this manner.

Hi Protegimus,

no cheap solution here, i fear: a moving group may flank or be threatened by the flank for example. In this case "compact column" would be better than "compact line" ...

To avoid any misunderstanding, I was referring to when AI were putting in a deliberate attack using overwatch, or reacting to fire, i.e. they have a good idea of where the main threat lies. Currently in these situations the risk of AI shooting their own troops in the back is far higher than the possible risk of putting an enemy on their flank while advancing or retreating and this needs to change.

What the formation is doesn't matter as much as making sure the advancing section isn't advancing in the arc of fire of the covering section - which is currently definitely the case.

Ideally formations arent' cast in stone, so the section can fluidly adjust/peel to a more appropriate formation to counter any developing threat or ambush.

Protegimus

[fabrizio_t 58]

@Protegimus:

Agree with your observations.

Sorry about misunderstandment on bounding overwatch.

@nikita

No problem.

Just consider i'm not really "complaining" here, instead i'm trying to politely give my "personal" hints to solve some precise issues, as well as considering everyone's else suggestions.

Many issues in ArmA2 were fixed within the last 10-12 months due ALSO to a handful of people taking their time to discuss problems here and posting tickets on the ArmA2 bugtracker.

So i see no reason to be overly negative on this.

Hope this clarifies, take care.

BTW: i agree this thread is probably in the wrong section.

Edited June 10, 2010 by fabrizio_T

[victim913 10]

This isn't the exact topic but it's the most recent dealing with squads. I tried searching but either couldn't find the answer or searched other words.

I have noticed at least the last couple betas that my squads keep lining up in front of me. ALWAYS. whenever i stop they keep moving until they are lined up exactly in front of me instead of behind me. When I don't use the beta they work fine.

Anyone have any idea why?

[r.flagg 11]

No need for an example mission, here is how it stands.

While driving back to FOB Manhattan in Bitter Chill, I take fire from a Chedaki jeep. I escape to the base and go through the cutscene with Simmons from Team Saber. Cutscene over, I order my team to get in the humvee.

Well, they're still in automatic Danger mode. It takes a good thirty seconds for them to load up. They drop on their stomachs, stare at the jeep, then take turns running tactical circles around it and scanning the horizon. The machinegunner is dead to the world, preparing to suppress the enemies a mile away who shot at him five minutes ago. After an interminable period of ducking and weaving or doing plain nothing, after spamming "It's SAFE, it's SAFE, LOAD UP DAMNIT!" commands, they manage, with herculean effort, to get in the car.

This is unplayable, BIS.

By all means, make the AI act realistically as they can when under someone else's control (although so far that means moving at the speed of a large slug), but when I'm in charge, I want them to be drones.

I used to play a lot of A2 offline with my own squad of AI, and this type of behaviour is why I don't play anymore.

I would love to purchase OA and get back to enjoying it all, but I'm afraid that the AI will pretty much be the same. Fair assumption? I mean, I kept checking back to threads on this topic, to see if folks mention that it's been fixed, but it never was.

Frustrating too, since I love(d) the game. I just feel strongly that if I'm all alone, playing offline with bots, they should do what I tell them - no matter what. I don't even care if I say something like 'line up and march off of this cliff', that's exactly what they should do, and without delay.

[Bouben 3]

Yes, I also can't understand the fact, that this behaviour is still not fixed. I don't enjoy laggy multiplayer so I wanna play with my AI in my custom missions.

[Baff1 0]

I'd be more intrested in having a command that stops them from being tactical and just makes them run in a straight line to wherever than I would be having a new way of asking them to do their clever stuff.

Ireally appreciate their clever stuff, but when it's time to disengage...to melt away through the forests.... or load into a vehicle...

They won't do it.

They start buggering around covering each other no matter what I say or do.

This can easily add about 30 minutes of just waiting around time into my game.

Frustrating battling the AI time not battling the game.

So my answer to the original question is not included. I would not like another option to turn this behaviour on, I would seek an option of how to turn it off.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Baff1

[subfigura 10]

Speed of automatic(aiRateOfFire) shooting decreases if to depart from shooting on 20 metres.

autoFire = 1;

aiRateOfFireDistance = 200;

soundBurst = 0;

aiRateOfFire = 0;

ffFrequency = "reloadTime";

ffMagnitude = "reloadTime";

ffCount = 5;

burst = 1;

Help!!!!!!!

I wish to hear all sounds, especially when there is a near fight