When should AI subordinates use the "bounding overwatch" movement

[santafee 10]

Should the AI allways copy your stand? Cause my AI is actually not doing that with the new Beta..

[maturin 12]

Should the AI allways copy your stand? Cause my AI is actually not doing that with the new Beta..

Only when told to Keep Low.

I assume that AI-controlled units will also switch to Danger mode automatically? Because I have sniped half a unit set to move somewhere Carelessly and they remained tranquil.

[Alex72 1]

They remain tranquil until they get fired upon i guess? Not when you shoot someone.

I have yet to test this. Going in now.

EDIT: Definate problems with latest beta. SAFE will make my AI start walking headless away and around. COPY MY STANCE works as in 60588. They dont crouch when i crouch.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Alex72

[mr.g-c 6]

As a next step to make AI control cleaner, based on this poll, rev. 60718 will contain following changes:

- AI now goes to Combat behaviour automatically only when under fire, not when player is prone.

- AI follows leader stance, but does not switch to combat behaviour when player is prone.

Hi i tried the latest beta and now the first of the two changes is true, however the stance change ONLY works for going prone....

It would be highly appreciated if your AI follows also crouch-stance! :D

[twisted 128]

this is awesome to have such discussion with devs.

take cover should be a reaction to an order or to incoming fire.

bounding overwatch should be movement default while in danger mode while moving from cover to cover (if possible).

would love to see more control over squad via context sensitive quick commands on space bar command screen. including fall back, take cover, assault <XX> with xx being any enemy, move up, etc. things really useful in combat - the closer to real commands used in military situations the better.

Edited December 2, 2009 by twisted

[nomdeplume 0]

• Manually-commanded Combat ("Danger") mode should use bounding overwatch as it does now.
  
• Automatic Combat mode should only occur when under (effective) fire - not when attacking the enemy.
  
• Automatic Combat mode should be canceled (back to Aware) as soon as possible, i.e. when not under fire for even just a few seconds. By then the group leader should have come up with some kind of response and be issuing new orders, and the AI needs to be able to follow them without delay.
  
• Find Cover command should cause all units to immediately:
  
  1. Assess immediate threat to the individual unit.
     
  2. Assess immediately-available targets (i.e. within LoS - things they can shoot "right now").
     
  3. If they have an immediate target AND the unit isn't in immediate danger (i.e. no enemy is able to shoot them right now), they can open fire. This repeats until either there's no targets left (all dead or in cover/concealment and no longer easy targets) OR the unit is in imminent danger of being shot itself, at which point:
     
  4. Unit sprints to the nearest cover. If there's concealment on the way, they should move via that; however it's more important to get to cover. If there's no cover, they should find concealment instead and at least one group member should yell something to the effect of there being no cover ("we're sitting ducks out here!"), to alert the player to the situation.
     
  5. Once in a 'safe' position, the unit would then start trying to engage the enemy, absent of any other orders from the group leader, but without putting itself at too much risk.
     

  [*]Find Cover could then be the automatic response to coming under fire from an unexpected enemy source. Find Cover would break formation following, similar to ordering a unit to move to a location. This means a "return to formation" order is required to get units to regroup. Once this happens, the enemy would no longer be "unexpected" and therefore a regroup issued while under fire would still be obeyed.

The above should handle most combat scenarios, and also make tactical retreats more possible: order the group to Aware mode (if they're not already), and to regroup, and as you leave they'll follow you quite quickly. If they come under fire they go to Danger mode and move to cover/shoot back if they can. Either they're unsuccessful and get killed, or they kill the enemy, or they move to a position where the enemy can no longer kill them. Either way, they can be out of automatic-Combat mode in a few seconds, and resuming running/sprinting back to the formation.

Find Cover could be shortened to just steps 4 and 5 if the preceding ones are too difficult or taxing on system resources. Individual unit skill should probably factor into their response: unskilled units will be less likely to immediately return fire. However, one can argue that unskilled units should be more likely to immediately return ineffective fire rather than taking cover.

On a bit of a tangent, I think the game would really benefit from being able to order your squad (or members of it) to cover a particular area. The units would then move to a position of cover/concealment where they have LoS to the indicated area. This would be useful for setting up ambushes, defensive positions, and so on.

For example, suppose you want to ambush a convoy moving through a valley. Currently, you might walk your team up to a ridge in "line" formation, tell them to hold fire, and then walk forward until most of them are at or near the top of the ridge, then tell them to stop. Then you have to faff about moving individual soldiers to position, and finally have everything kind of reasonable-looking.

Then the enemy shows up, and everyone goes "Danger!" and starts moving to cover/concealment. This potentially results in them becoming exposed, but also means that when you give the order to open up, half the team are still relocating and unable to shoot.

Now imagine doing the same thing, but with the "Cover area" command available. You move near to the hill crest in line formation, tell the group to hold fire, then you point at the valley where you expect the enemy to be and tell everyone to "cover that area". The group moves up the hill and then finds cover/concealment, potentially goes prone (if ordered to do so or in stealth mode etc.), and waits with their weapons trained on the area.

With the above suggestions (only use 'combat' mode if under fire), when the enemy appears, they all maintain their position, reporting they have a target. When you order them to open up, everyone does so. Any incoming fire may trigger a 'combat' mode response, but your guys are already in cover/concealment so that's not so disruptive.

Additionally, you can order most of your team to cover the valley, while ordering others to cover your flanks. The command would be an incredibly powerful "tactics enabler", and I think just about everything needed to make it happen is already present in the game engine.

And best of all, the player feels like they're commanding trained soldiers!

[Inkompetent 0]

I voted for Crouch and Take Cover. I'm not certain if ordered Danger is the same as AI simply being in Aware mode. That is what I assumed, and I would want the AI to stay in formation if Aware unless told otherwise.

I also think that Crouch (running or walking) is a good way to tell "keep your heads down", whether fired upon or not.

A lot of the time I move, or want to move, in bounding overwatch even when not recieving fire, simply because I MAY get fired upon and don't want the entire team in the open.

If Danger is NOT the same as being Aware, then it sounds like a better option than Take Cover though.

[maddogx 13]

The most natural (instinctive) reaction to incoming fire is to take cover. Bounding overwatch is the equivalent of taking cover while moving, so I feel the AI should automatically switch to bounding overwatch when under fire.

I am generally opposed to the AI changing combat modes just because I crouched or went prone.

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

I voted for "when i order them take cover", I think I would like it better this way.

If I could keep the squad moving in formation and benefit the danger mode at the same time I would like that. then when i would order 'Take cover'(because contact has been made or is about to be), we would move in bounding overwatch.

[Bouben 3]

@some kind of guy: Perfect reaction. I really hope that BIS will read and look into your idea. Everyone should read what some kind of guy have written. The most constructive and versatile opinion here. Great.

[Heatseeker 0]

I just tried it and its working the way Suma said, its much better this way.

Now how about stealth? Shouldnt the a.i. crawl around and move slowly under stealth behaviour? ;)

[nomdeplume 0]

I'm not certain if ordered Danger is the same as AI simply being in Aware mode. That is what I assumed, and I would want the AI to stay in formation if Aware unless told otherwise.

There's 5 movement behaviours available in the game. In the mission editor, these are referred to as Safe, Aware, Combat, and Stealth. There's also a Careless mode, but it's not something you can order in-game.

Within the game, you can order the four main behaviours, using At Ease (Safe), Stay Alert (Aware), Danger (Combat), and Stealth (Stealth).

Units that are in "Safe" mode behave in a more relaxed manner, since they're not expecting contact. Units in "Aware" mode are I suppose a bit more alert; I'm not sure on the specifics, but likely they have an increased detection range vs. units in Safe mode. Combat mode is for actual contact with the enemy, and is the mode in which bounding overwatch becomes active in Arma 2. Stealth is for sneaking, and seems very similar to Combat; presumably it has a higher emphasis on staying low.

The interesting thing is that groups will automatically transition to Combat mode whenever they detect an enemy, if they're in either Safe or Alert. Which effectively means if there are enemies detected, you have two modes available: Combat or Stealth, which are very similar.

Hopefully that clarifies the discussion. I think the devs and mission editors are more likely to refer to the "Danger" mode as "Combat", and "Stay Alert" as "Aware", since that's what they're called in the mission editor/scripting parts of the game.

Careless mode is like Safe, however there's no transition: units will completely ignore enemies, even if they're being shot. So it's not useful in normal gameplay, but can be good for scripted sequences.

Also, you will pretty much always start a mission in "Aware" mode (i.e. "Stay alert").

I also think that Crouch (running or walking) is a good way to tell "keep your heads down", whether fired upon or not.

Possibly it should be a case that stationary AI will copy the stance of their leader, while moving AI would only keep low if they're in combat/stealth mode? I just think it would look kind of strange if every time the leader crouched everyone else immediately did too, regardless of what they're doing... would make it seem quite artificial. I quite often crouch when scanning and I wouldn't want the rest of my team to go OH MY GOD HE'S CROUCHED WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!! every time I did...

[Scrub 0]

Typically it's the leader ordering the type of movement through a terrain and condition, unless under direct fire, right (call danger)? Or do troops choose to just do it as well?

Funny and true crouch discussion going on here. 'I don't wanna die!'

Edited December 3, 2009 by Scrub

[NeMeSiS 11]

I do not like AI changing their behaviour depending on my stance.

The 'Take Cover' command should make them go to cover as fast as possible, so no bounding overwatch.

IMO they should only use it in the 'automatic' combat mode (Which starts when you are under fire or something) and when i order them to go into combat myself.

In stealth mode they should cover eachother, but should leave more space between eachother because priority should be being in cover, not covering other people.

EDIT: By the way, looking at the map makes you crouch, would be rather annoying when your squad goes into combat mode because you look at the map. :p

Edited December 3, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[Bouben 3]

I do not like AI changing their behaviour depending on my stance.

The 'Take Cover' command should make them go to cover as fast as possible, so no bounding overwatch.

IMO they should only use it in the 'automatic' combat mode (Which starts when you are under fire or something) and when i order them to go into combat myself.

In stealth mode they should cover eachother, but should leave more space between eachother because priority should be being in cover, not covering other people.

EDIT: By the way, looking at the map makes you crouch, would be rather annoying when your squad goes into combat mode because you look at the map. :p

+1 you're right :)

[boneboys 0]

When I order them Danger.

Simple reply.

[twisted 128]

tried out the new AI improvements and used troopmon2 to observe them.

they use cover nicely, but there are things about bounding overwatch they do not seem to do.

they should work as a team, this is very important. With a few guys moving forward together to cover/concealment while getting supporting/suppressing fire from the guys behind. then repeat with the guys in front providing support with the guys from the back moving up. right now the ai sort of stay close but do not provide cover and move sort of independently.

as an example. i watched an ai guy walk up the hill while 50m behind him his wounded buddy also tried to move up the hill. the wounded buddy should have provided covering fire or suppressed the enemy allowing the guy in front to move much more safely.

also a note about formations, each guy in the formation is supposed to keep an eye out in a direction, that way danger from many angles can be spotted. each member in the formation should serve a function.

of course you have read this, but look at page 51 for examples with pictures. http://ofp.umbr.net/Other/milpubs/Combat%20Skills%20of%20the%20Soldier%20%20%20(FM%2021-75).pdf

[Franklin 0]

if contact is taken then, yes bounding overwatch would be used. However in order to move towards the enemies flanks, they must first be fixed by suppressive fire, and blinded by smoke. using m203s to put smoke in their faces, and smoke to cover our movements, not our machine gunners line of sight...

a little off topic, but since were in the department of AI improvements...

as far as movement, giving the "Danger" command should definetly put them into bounding overwatch.

to simplify, the traveling technique is used when no contact is expected. Traveling overwatch is used when possible contact is expected, and bounding overwatch is used when enemy contact is expected.

[fabrizio_t 58]

. With a few guys moving forward together to cover/concealment while getting supporting/suppressing fire from the guys behind. then repeat with the guys in front providing support with the guys from the back moving up. right now the ai sort of stay close but do not provide cover and move sort of independently.

Talking about groups friven by AI leaders: i am the only one thinking that with builds >=60890 things have gone worse in this regards? Does anybody thinks builds 60558 - 60819 got better behaviour ?

I see sensible changes, but in the wrong direction. What's your opinion?

[dayglow 2]

I think stance shouldn't effect behavior, the danger command works good for me. What I would like to see in a stance is that in the aware state the AI crouches when they are waiting for an order. IE when they move they walk/run upright, but once they are still they crouch down.

[Skelt 10]

This is a simulation game correct?

When a Fire Team Leader orders his men to take cover = brake formation and find the nearest solid cover, ie: trees, structures, ditches, essentially get somewhere bullets don't fly. This should also be automatic, when ever you encounter an ambush you have two options, Return fire, or Take Cover, preferably both getting a few heads to duck. AI::: Just lays on the ground, regardless of cover.

A "combat state" of Danger would be to bring weapons to the ready position, as contact is Emanate. However what this means to the AI is to act like complete idiots running around and laying on the ground, where it should be::: Combat Glide, Weapon at ready, In formation, Radio chatter next to zero :::.

In real combat we never run anywhere unless bullets are flying, or there is a specific need to run, as fatigue is an enemy too. A full combat load wears on you fast. Sappy plates + needed equipment step the weight up fast.

You should never have to set your team to Aware, as on any patrol or combat op everyone is full tilt aware, its a very surreal feeling. I would have expected Bis to have interviewed some operators (people far above my skill level) regarding this.

Bounding Movements Bounding Movements could be implemented during stealth operations, or rapid fall backs - in this case it will simulate a bigger force then is actually there, as it will allow for constant rounds down range. This is also used heavily in urban combat, but the game doesn't really allow for proper implementation. More technical research will be needed, glad to see the effort though, I'm sure Bis will get it down in the future.

Copy My Stance (Stay Low) doesn't appear to function correctly at all. Real Life: While on patrol, if stopped for a prolonged period of time, automatically go to the kneeling position, if in the kneeling position for a prolonged time go prone. This is mostly common sense, however we are dealing with AI. The stay low command should position the units in the MID, or Low stance. (Kneeling or prone) So in the game, AI will be in the middle position while moving and prone once stopped for a "prolonged time" 1-5 minutes, Unless engaged, then go prone.

However I would be just as happy if they straight up Copied my stance exactly, regardless of contact.

All in all, Great game, few quarks but definitely the best simulation out there by far** Little more difficult then real life though, as I've been in combat before and made it through 13 months without a scratch. Target acquisition for the player is a bit difficult, I get killed a lot without seeing the enemy.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Skelt

[maturin 12]

You should never have to set your team to Aware, as on any patrol or combat op everyone is full tilt aware, its a very surreal feeling. I would have expected Bis to have interviewed some operators (people far above my skill level) regarding this.

Hence it's the default setting, and you simply have the option of putting them on safe if the war spontaneously ends.

[Grizzle 0]

That poll is out of whack in terms of percentages.

[suma 8]

That poll is out of whack in terms of percentages.

This should explain it:

Multiple Choice Poll.

[NeMeSiS 11]

This should explain it:

I dont think everyone understood that, unless people really dont want them to use it when you order them into combat mode yourself? ;)