Operation Arrowhead : no gun sway in crouched position

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

Please BIS, don't port this gameplay issue into the upcoming Operation Arrowhead.

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/2288

It is nothing but a source of troubles for people who play without crosshair.

Shooting in the crouched position should be as 'comfortable' as it is in stand up and prone position : without the gun swaying uncontrollably.

Furthermore, if the player sets aiming deadzone=100% and/or if the target is at a different height than the shooter then aiming correctly is made even more difficult.

It is truely a pain in the ..gameplay that should be fixed now (in ArmA II) and not ported into Arrowhead.

[An Fiach 10]

Isn't this why weapons have sights or am I misunderstanding the problem?

[Mudkip 0]

OR... they could make proper reflex sights but leave the swaying.

[Beagle 684]

Shooting in the crouched position should be as 'comfortable' as it is in stand up and prone position : without the gun swaying uncontrollably

No, it should not, Grab youself a gun and just try it. Its much easier to have a steady aim standing compared to kneeling. ArmA is anbsolutely right in this department.

Also in sports marksmanship the kneeling position is considered the most difficult to be mastered, and therefore the problem very well known to me..

Edited November 28, 2009 by Beagle

[HyperU2 11]

No, it should not, Grab youself a gun and just try it. Its much easier to have a steady aim standing compared to kneeling. ArmA is anbsolutely right in this department.

lol what?

[An Fiach 10]

lol what?

Must mean for people with inner ear problems.

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

Isn't this why weapons have sights or am I misunderstanding the problem?

The problem is the gun sway in crouched position causes optics/ironsights misalignment and there is no proper solution against this misalignment.

For example, go into the mission editor, place yourself as a basic infantryman (no scoped weapons), place pop up targets on the map at various distances & height, make sure you are not playing with crosshair enabled, bring the 3d sights up and shoot the targets each time in a different position (stand up/crouched/prone).

When you are in the crouched position (and only when you are in the crouched position), you will notice that the optics/ironsights will sway like a pendulum with a horizontal movement (sometimes horizontal+vertical movements), this makes aiming correctly in crouched position artificially difficult.

OR... they could make proper reflex sights but leave the swaying.

-I agree with you concerning proper sights, it would be great. Unfortunately I read sometimes ago that it wasn't feasible within ArmA II.

-Imho, the sway should be removed unless BIS gives us a way to realign the sights in order to aim correctly.

Currently, even 'hold breath' doesn't do anything against this sway.

If you really want to realign the sights, you must use a trick : you must restart the animation by pressing quickly and lightly one of the movement key (needless to say this must be done very often).

No, it should not, Grab youself a gun and just try it. Its much easier to have a steady aim standing compared to kneeling. ArmA is anbsolutely right in this department.

Also in sports marksmanship the kneeling position is considered the most difficult to be mastered, and therefore the problem very well known to me..

There is nothing realistic with this uncontrollable sway in ArmA II.

In real life, whenever the optics/ironsights are misaligned, you use your arms & hands to realign the sights onto the target before shooting.

In ArmA II, as soon as you crouch the gun starts dancing on the screen and you can not do anything to adjust the sights, you become a spectator and have to wait until the optics/ironsights realign correctly (or you can use the annoying trick posted above to realign the sights ^).

[jw custom 56]

As it is now aim upwards from crouch is a real pain and should get fixed. It's like the front of the sight is staying in position but the sight part closest to your head is moving in all directions. Thats the best way i can describe it.

It's really annoying when you prefere to play without crosshair!

[TimRiceSE 10]

-I agree with you concerning proper sights, it would be great. Unfortunately I read sometimes ago that it wasn't feasible within ArmA II.

Its possible, it was done in ArmA1, iirc the problem was it wasnt compatible with all video cards... I wonder if anyone knows the situation these days given that the requirements for ArmA2 are considerably higher, maybe pretty much everyone has a card modern enough to not screw it up.

[An Fiach 10]

I notice the movement but personally can't see any misalignment. I do find it odd that it would sway more crouched than standing. Don't forget to hold your breath.

[Master gamawa 0]

I have never noticed any swaying in crouched position. I always use crouch when I want to be stealthy and I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

[Inkompetent 0]

How long distances do you shoot at in that case? Five meters? Sit crouched for a while with iron sights up (no need to Hold Breath) and try to aim at something 200m away? The rear and front sight with misalign back and forth and it's practically impossible to get a good shot off. Have to be standing or prone to get good accuracy.

[Alex72 1]

In real life we have so much advantages like tensing our muscles, moving our head and eyes. Slight mis-alignment i guess happens, but we compensate that IRL down to sway instead. We have very limited ways of compensating in the game. Holding RMB doesnt help much.

I think this should be made with proper sway as in back and front sights are aligned, but swaying. Could even be a slight slight mis-alignement, but not as much as it is now. Sometimes the front sight goes outside of the back sight completelly, and you cant even see the front one. I think thats too much personally.

Remember we are supposed to be trained soldiers in the game. :)

[jw custom 56]

I think this should be made with proper sway as in back and front sights are aligned, but swaying. Could even be a slight slight mis-alignement, but not as much as it is now. Sometimes the front sight goes outside of the back sight completelly, and you cant even see the front one. I think thats too much personally.

Agree, we should of course keep sway but that anormal misalignment needs to get rid of.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

I don't understand why it sways this much in crouched position too. I tried IRL and aiming standing and crouching shouldn't be too different (as both are without support).

[Alex72 1]

It is more sway when crouching IRL. I cant explain it good enough in english, but it is. BIS did a good job caturing that, but like some other things its a bit overdone.

[jw custom 56]

I don't understand why it sways this much in crouched position too. I tried IRL and aiming standing and crouching shouldn't be too different (as both are without support).

Just to make it clear, this problem is when you use iron sights not the crosshair! Also it's not the sway itself thats the problem but the misalignment between front and back sight.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

To illustrate:

Left is crouched, at it's worst point, right is standing. You can get the same results as the left picture by just planting yourself as a USMC crewman, crouching and looking down the sights, eventually you'll see an "animation" which misaligns your sight by that wide of a margin.

Other postures have a tiny bit of misalignment aswell during animations as you can see, but nothing major like the crouch anims. Combine this with aimpoint-style weapons where you don't have such a clear indicator that the sights are missaligned so much in crouched and longer distance shooting, and you can end up making very very bad shots.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Sniperwolf572

[jw custom 56]

Combine this with aimpoint-style weapons where you don't have such a clear indicator that the sights are missaligned so much in crouched and longer distance shooting, and you can end up making very very bad shots.

And specially when aiming upwards, i have been screaming sometimes lol :p

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

As it is now aim upwards from crouch is a real pain and should get fixed. It's like the front of the sight is staying in position but the sight part closest to your head is moving in all directions. Thats the best way i can describe it.

It's really annoying when you prefere to play without crosshair!

Indeed. Upwards, downwards, on the left, on the right

Optics misalignment (downwards) :

this awkward shot: screenshot 1, resulted in a headshot: screenshot 2

notice the difference between where the bullet goes and where the dot is...

Ironsights misalignment (upwards):

screenshot 1, after a few moments: screenshot 2

Some more illustrations for optics misalignment :

This awkward shot resulted in a hit : screenshot 1 (see the tracer about to hit the target)

This one resulted in a hit too : screenshot 2

But this one was a miss : screenshot 1, screenshot 2 ....I thought I had it...:o

(tracers :mod Pistolfied's Tracers, puff of smoke : mod WarFX Particles by OpticalSnare)

Sometimes, hitting your target in crouched position is a real feat ! :party:

I have never noticed any swaying in crouched position. I always use crouch when I want to be stealthy and I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

I use crouched position a lot and each time I play ArmA II, the sway is present and I must realign the weapon by myself with the cheap trick mentioned previously. We must have different style of play & different settings, because I don't understand how you have never experienced it.

Don't forget to hold your breath.

'hold breath' doesn't do anything against the misalignment of the weapon in crouched position,

if you want to realign the weapon correctly, you must use the cheap trick mentioned previously.

Thanks Sniperwolf572 for posting the scheme.

[jw custom 56]

But this one was a miss : screenshot 1, screenshot 2 ....I thought I had it...:o

(tracers :mod Pistolfied's Tracers, puff of smoke : mod WarFX Particles by OpticalSnare)

Thats some good illustrations of the problem :)

[Inkompetent 0]

In the end I think a system like America's Army 3 would be pretty neat. A moderate amount of sway while just holding the weapon up, then you can hold breath to dramatically stabilize the weapon, and there's a stamina meter starting to get drained. Once that meter runs out your avatar HAS to breathe and the sway becomes terrible, and after a moment the stamina meter starts to refill again.

ArmA2 is somewhere in that direction, but it can probably be improved some more (aside from fixing the annoyingly broken animation in crouched stance causing all that sway)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Bah such things like "stamina meter" will make OA more arcady - better improve/change the animations and alignments instead of implementing such artificial & gamey features. Keep those UI features away that constrain the view and reduce the atmosphere.

[Inkompetent 0]

As with a lot of other things: Keep it toggleable! Since one can't hear a soldier's breath get heavier because he's obviously not breathing (holding breath is called holding breath for a reason) some kind of graphical representation could be needed. At least as long as one depresses the button for 'Hold Breath'. When releasing it can just as well disappear, since it's not needed any longer :)

[Jex =TE= 0]

I don't have an issue for visual aids in games either. They let you know what your body would tell you anyway.