R.I.P to the 5 British soldiers and the 13 U.S soldiers

[welshdude 10]

R.I.P to the 5 British servicemen that were killed in Afghanistan thoughts go out to your friends and familys.

R.I.P to the 13 U.S soldiers that were murdered in texas thought go out to your friends and family.

Just posting my respect since it just feels right to do so and they deserve it.

R.I.P

[AndresCL 10]

My respect for their families

[icebreakr 3114]

/salute

[riffleman 20]

Tribute to all of them.i know what feeling have there relative.

[vilas 473]

before you will hate me :P ask yourself one question "why someone did something"

it is for me hard to understand/belive that major of US army (man with money, position) just like that takes weapon and wastes his life (all what achieved all life) and makes something which will cause paying highest price and loose all ??

it is simply makes no sense, that someone who have position, family, do action which ruin his life, it simply makes no sense

according to Russian journalists - he even wanted go retired ! to avoid going to Iraq and was abused by other soldiers for being arabic

http://www.gzt.ru/topnews/world/270374.html

why man which DO NOT want to go on fight and who wants to be retired is ordered to go somewhere ? why ? is there in america slavery still?

why man who was (according to press) abused by other soldiers for being born not white, why man who want to go retired - must go to place 10 000 miles away ( in my country soldiers must give agree to go to war outside country borders, cause soldier is to protect country own borders) ?

i cannot understand why he couldn't be released to be retired ? why ? was he slave in ACU ? or he lives in "freedom" country ?

america always use "freedom", hell, why than man who is "free" cannot be retired ? TV says he hired lawyer to become retired to avoid war :(

if all what TV says is true, than it is very sad :(

i would rather be mistaken, cause if all those tv reports are true...

the only think i would like to know about this case - what is truth and reason for such behaviour and are Russian journalists words true

on one Russian forum i found wise words:

"who is guilty ? man who was forced to go on war against other people ? or people who not allow him to resign from work and force to go there"

i know you may be angry on my post, but rethink yourself what i told

cause i am man who try to find "why something happened, what is cause of this"

i just would like to know "why it happened and are Russian TV words true", it would be better that Russian TV is mistaken, but other countries journalists say he was harm by others for his roots and he was refused to go retired

i wish to know, what you would do, if you will be badly treated and forced to go somewhere where you not want (normal people do not want to go to war, cause real world war is "ugly") it is not "fun in game", but real people suffer, like Iraq children suffer of cancer because of uranium ammo

but it is maybe too hard to understand , cause you are all white, native US, UK etc.

for me it is easy to understand, cause i am living among people who have problems with spelling my name (Lithuanian in Poland and atheist not catholic and it caused few times problems in school or studies, my girl was atheist and had problems too "why you not cross, why you eat meat on friday, why you not kneel when you are visiting church, take off your hat, you are in church..., why you refused priest to visit your home and not payed him..." etc. ) and if for example Polish army would force me to go against Lithuanians - hell, have no idea what could i do :|

i hope Russian tv is wrong, i hope in USA there is no slavery in army and you have right to say "i will ONLY defend my country in its borders"

I DO NOT MEANT TO HURT US PEOPLE FEELINGS

but i wanted to find "why something happened"

i had some Police-work experience, half of my friends are police

every policeman asks "what was motive" by the "motive" you find - why someone made something

i do not justify him, maybe he wanted to show problem of arabic forcing to go to other country ? he should commit suicide , he should not kill anyone, if i was in his shoes probably i would rather shot myself but people differently react on situations

i never was in army that go to war

and i will never be, thats why in 2002 after graduating i went to police, to "serve and protect", not to leave borders of my land, over 70% of Poles want Polish army go back and not be outside our borders

i think he should gone retired as he asked unless US is "freedom" not "slavery" - if all what Russian media, internet and etc. say is true

i always try to listen both sides : con and pro to judge from 2 sources

when i read news - i read "right and left side" newspapers, i read "commie newspaper" and "catholic" to find common area on facts

Edited November 7, 2009 by vilas

[red oct 2]

there is no conscription in the US, you have a choice if you wana be in the military. so i don't know where the slavery part comes in other than it being the usual russian propaganda. if you do enlist, you can get your colledge education and medical coverage all payed for by the government. however, in exchange for all that you right there owe the military your time. seems like a fair enough deal to me. if you don't like the idea of going to war or getting sent far away from home than maybe it wouldnt be a good idea to go and enlist.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Red Oct

[vilas 473]

so why he couldn't go retired ?

and concerning going to army : when i go to army - i go to defend MY country borders before enemy attack it

but i don't go to invade other country , i would kill if someone attack my country, but i would not step foot outside of my country border - cause there is another country

you can get your colledge education and medical coverage all payed

muthaf**** capitalism

in socialism we had free study and free education

those thins should be free for everyone, not to "go to war to have medical care"

man, it is sick "kill&die or get no medical care" - this sound like "economical blackmail"

so you have no medical care in America ? if you have no money but you wanna learn, you cannot do it without being soldier ? maaaaan it would be sick :( and i would feel sorry to all young people who would like to study and have choice "be soldier or nothing" :(

really looking back i think, maybe this "communism collapse" was not that good ?

you live in US, i live in eastern Europe and belive me - i had free holidays (payed by state in 50% or more), free school, books were from library , i borrowed them, nothing had to buy (cause i was from poor family) , i was good student so i had "scholarship/stipend" , people here even were getting flat from state

[red oct 2]

you have to serve so many years before you aloud the option to reinlist or leave, thats just the way it is. and capitalism has nothing to do w/ the public health care and education. its about what everybody in this country wants. there are ALOT of people who are just happy with their private insurance companies taking care of their of them and they get very nasty when somebody mentions plans to raise taxes to make public health care available. you can see just how much people are up in arms about this on youtube.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Red Oct

[vilas 473]

than maybe not he, but your country army system is guilty in this shooting ?

man not wanted to go to war, wanted be release and they not allowed him to leave army

you know - i cannot understand that someone could order me to go to war outside my borders

looking at this shooting i see "system is guilty, not man"

cause "system" blackmails someone - go to army or get no medical insurance and school

so it is some kind of slavery (economical) not "freedom" "land of free"?

but from the other side - major is big money ?

than why major could not just gone from army and for example worked in civil place like hospital (he was doctor) ?

why ?

sory, but for me it is slavery, if your army not allowed him to leave

he should go to civil and than pay his debts (financial) to army from his new work

than i could call "freedom"

but it cannot understand that someone HAS to serve before ALOUD (or allow)...

you are not "land of free", you are "slaves country" if you cannot just leave job and pay your debt from new job money

he was major, so even working in hospital, shop, whatever he could pay back his studies ?

now even Polish TV says he took lawyer to leave army but he was not allowed :/

but why the hell he shoot colleagues , not for example general which not allowed him to leave ?

he definitely made wrong decision, if his boss refused to retire him, why usual soldiers payed the price - this is bad and evil :/

it is wrong when people turn their reaction (on situation) to random people , it is worst in this

cause those boys probably were not his bosses who stooped him - and thats why he is guilty , cause aggression should not touch someone random, it is very ugly that this man turned his aggression at random people :/

Edited November 7, 2009 by vilas

[red oct 2]

well way i see it, its a hell of a lot better than countries where military service is still manditory and you don't have any say in the matter. do you even at least get a good paycheck for manditory service? cause i don't think you do.

the shooter did have a choice of wether or not he wanted to join the army. he chose to do so, he got a house and a education for volunteering. and went on a shooting rampage when he was exected to uphold his end of the agreement. and i don't know how long it is you must stay in the service before getting the option wether to reinlist or call it quits but im sure after having spent 8 years he had his chance to leave and chose to stay.

[Blackhawk 0]

Feel sorry for those 5 British men who died, That policeman used such a cowardly tactic, strike them at their most vulnerable moment....

[Hans Ludwig 0]

you have to serve so many years before you aloud the option to reinlist or leave, thats just the way it is. and capitalism has nothing to do w/ the public health care and education. its about what everybody in this country wants. there are ALOT of people who are just happy with their private insurance companies taking care of their of them and they get very nasty when somebody mentions plans to raise taxes to make public health care available. you can see just how much people are up in arms about this on youtube.

Bro, can you please use spell checker? If you can't master American English, then please don't post until you have. You just give ammo to people that can't wait to bash America or add your grammar to the list of why Americans are stupid.

"who is guilty ? man who was forced to go on war against other people ? or people who not allow him to resign from work and force to go there"

His Imam - Muslim spiritual leader - said he wanted to join the U.S. Army right after 9/11 to show his support for "his country." His Imam said it was a good chance that what led to him doing what he did was that he had no family or social network in place to help him out (e.i. family, friends, and was lonely)

And you don't retire when you want in the US Military. If you signed a contract that said they will pay for you to go to college in return that you serve X years. In his case, he became a doctor, which is highly expensive and the tax payers of the United States expect something in return for their hard earned money to be used for the benefit of our society. Even though the US Army can be majorly boring, you get paid 100 times better than Russian and Eastern European soldiers. You get the best health care and military equipment. You get a sh!t load of four (4) day weekends and plenty of days off, minus if you are in country/theatre.

i do not justify him, maybe he wanted to show problem of arabic forcing to go to other country ? he should commit suicide , he should not kill anyone, if i was in his shoes probably i would rather shot myself but people differently react on situations

i never was in army that go to war

and i will never be, thats why in 2002 after graduating i went to police, to "serve and protect", not to leave borders of my land, over 70% of Poles want Polish army go back and not be outside our borders

i think he should gone retired as he asked unless US is "freedom" not "slavery" - if all what Russian media, internet and etc. say is true

Can you cut your communism is l33t speech? Do we really need to prove to you that it's a failed system? In North America and Western Europe, we have freedom to make the choices we do. No one is forced do to do anything they do not wish. If it was such a great system, why was West Germany better off than East Germany? Why does Eastern Europe and Russia lag the rest of the world in poor, degrading infrastructure? Why were there bread lines in Russia and food rationing? Pick up the British magazine The Economist to educate yourself. It seems years of communist propaganda has brain washed you and made you completely ignorant to US, Canada, UK, France, Australia ways of life.

man, it is sick "kill&die or get no medical care" - this sound like "economical blackmail"

so you have no medical care in America ?

Once again you are showing your ignorance. In the United States anyone can buy medical insurance. That's not the problem we are having. The problem is we are trying to tackle the rising cost of medical insurance so that people can still afford it like they used to. And when I mean "we", I mean whoever is buying the medical insurance: Business you work for or our of your own pocket. The reason we can't use models that work for other countries is that we have way more people than Canada, Britain combined.

No one saying Capitalism is great, but when it operates in a democracy, the citizens can have public policy changed to insure that Capitalism stays some what ethical, produces safe products, does not cook the books, and many more things. In communism, you only have one industry/company producing one thing. Because of this, no one gets to choose if you want a pink car or a red car; you are told you will only be able to buy only one model of car in one color. Look at all the apartments in Eastern Europe and Russia. Notice they all look the same inside and outside? It doesn't matter what city you live in.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Hans Ludwig

[derk yall 0]

...text...

Please, dont be so offensive.

Pre) When someone say something bad about USA, or its governament it doesnt mean he is a american hater. For example I say bad thing about my country governament. It's mean that i hate my country and all people living in it?

1) The eastern block is not only the eastern europe, but also the central (ex. czechoslovakia, poland etc.) and it is a little anoying when someone place your country to a different area.

2)state youre quotes. You say that the governament dictated to the people what to do. You say there were lines for bread and food rationizing. I want proof, not propaganda! I live in one of the "eastern country" so I want to know about something I hadnt knew.

3) eastern block != russia or USSR

4) I think that stating wich health care and equipement is the best is very dificult so.

5) State where the payment is 100x bigger than in ex-eastern block countries.

6) About the apartements in the eastern block, yes they look the same from outside, totaly diferent insibe, but when I look everywhere around the world I see same type of building builded. Also the current architects countinue to make clone-wars buildings. The cities are not the same. Sure that these areas with the buldings from the socialistic era look quite the same. Look at cities like Prague, Warsava, Bratislava, do they all look the same?

7) State where you had found that people could only buy one type of cars in only one colors.

For end this I dont want to acuse you. If the text I wrote seems in that way I am sorry. I am only interested in your statement. I live in an central europe country from ex-eastern block. But many thing that you listed were never there.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Derk Yall

[Deadfast 43]

Look at cities like Prague, Warsava, Bratislava, do they all look the same?

The prefab districts from the 70's do and that's the point.

[derk yall 0]

I know but from his post it seemed a little that all cities there are from these prafabs. a little aside. I am very afraid of historitians, wich will once protect these uglynese, because they are architectonic relics.

On-topic:

Every life is precious. Never one could tell if the death had a sense or not. People die in every minutes for diferent reasons.

Still R.I.P. to the ones wich voluntered into the service of their country wich they had in their hearts forever till the end. Hope the humanity will once enligth and will find no difference betwen themselve So these will no more be these conflicts.

[sparks50 0]

Offtopic much? Vilas..

Anyway, threat people with respect(its free), not necessarily because you fear them going all Columbine, but for being a good person in general.

Private CCW should in my opinion be, as all other places, allowed in bases where one does not carry as a routine.

As long as bad guys can bring guns, so should you.

Sad incidents both of them.

[GoOB 0]

In his case, he became a doctor, which is highly expensive and the tax payers of the United States expect something in return for their hard earned money to be used for the benefit of our society.

In my country a physician pays back his or her debt to the society that afforded him or her education by working and paying taxes so that another person that wants or needs an education can get it - For free, without tuition charges. Personally, I am against armies using "free education" and "free healthcare" to lure or dare I say it exploit potential recruits - The army is about one thing, and one thing only when it comes down to it, and I am sure you all know what that one thing is. I am also sure everyone who signs enlistment papers know what that one thing is - The problem is when there is no other choice viable choice for survival but to sign that paper.

But really, this topic isn't the proper place to debate politics or the practices of the American Armed Forces - It was started so we could pay our respects to the families who lost husbands, brothers, sisters or wives to these gruesome events. My thoughts go out to everyone who needlessly lost someone to either of these attacks.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

In my country a physician pays back his or her debt to the society that afforded him or her education by working and paying taxes so that another person that wants or needs an education can get it - For free, without tuition charges. Personally, I am against armies using "free education" and "free healthcare" to lure or dare I say it exploit potential recruits - The army is about one thing, and one thing only when it comes down to it, and I am sure you all know what that one thing is. I am also sure everyone who signs enlistment papers know what that one thing is - The problem is when there is no other choice viable choice for survival but to sign that paper.

But really, this topic isn't the proper place to debate politics or the practices of the American Armed Forces - It was started so we could pay our respects to the families who lost husbands, brothers, sisters or wives to these gruesome events. My thoughts go out to everyone who needlessly lost someone to either of these attacks.

You communist make me laugh. Well what you do in Sweden is your thing. Just don't go ramming your liberal crap down ours. I seem to remember why the US, UK, Canada and Australia do pretty damn well is because we believe in working hard for the things we want in life and not having it handed to us because we are too lazy or lack the motivation to make things happen. Communist want to be told what do, how to do it, where to do it, all because they want job/economic security. Freeloader much?

I read an article in the Economist a few years ago that gave all the Eastern European, Ukraine and Russia's higher education institutions failing grades. Why? They don't teach the same way they do at Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, USC. I strictly remember reading a few times from the article that it's not uncommon to have classes that teach you to "memorize" instead of using critical thinking and objecting in class when you can make a valid argument. So they are institutions of memorizing, which leads to a poor work ethic and not so great products.

I do actually believe this because look at Russian military technology. The Russian MiG (??) Foxbat was a copy of the US F111 that had some parts flown back to Mother Russia after they were shot down over North Vietnam. The B29 that mad an emergency landing was dismantled and copied. The list goes on and on. All of this is because communism is unable to produce the engineers that are needed. It stifles competition, which leads to better products for the consumer. It also creates a welfare state that stifles risk taking and an entitlement complex is created within the society.

TU-4

B-29

F111 Russian copy. This is the SU 24.

F111

Edited November 8, 2009 by Hans Ludwig

[MehMan 0]

I do actually believe this because look at Russian military technology. The Russian MiG (??) Foxbat was a copy of the US F111 that had some parts flown back to Mother Russia after they were shot down over North Vietnam. The B29 that mad an emergency landing was dismantled and copied. The list goes on and on. All of this is because communism is unable to produce the engineers that are needed. It stifles competition, which leads to better products for the consumer. It also creates a welfare state that stifles risk taking and an entitlement complex is created within the society.

What about the mig-29, su-27, Sputnik, su-33. And lets not forget the mig-35 and the su-35. Oh and the Mig-25 and Mi-24. And the An-124 and An-225. You list two planes out of many and then apply your flawed logic to everything.

The reason we can't use models that work for other countries is that we have way more people than Canada, Britain combined.

You also have a bigger GDP per capita and you also spend around 17% of your gdp on your current healthcare system and yet your healthcare is rated lower than that of the UK which spends a mere 10% of their gdp on healthcare.

Your logic is flawed.

Try harder and stop being ignorant.

[GoOB 0]

You communist make me laugh. Well what you do in Sweden is your thing. Just don't go ramming your liberal crap down ours. I seem to remember why the US, UK, Canada and Australia do pretty damn well is because we believe in working hard for the things we want in life and not having it handed to us because we are too lazy or lack the motivation to make things happen. Communist want to be told what do, how to do it, where to do it, all because they want job/economic security. Freeloader much?

I read an article in the Economist a few years ago that gave all the Eastern European, Ukraine and Russia's higher education institutions failing grades. Why? They don't teach the same way they do at Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, USC. I strictly remember reading a few times from the article that it's not uncommon to have classes that teach you to "memorize" instead of using critical thinking and objecting in class when you can make a valid argument. So they are institutions of memorizing, which leads to a poor work ethic and not so great products.

I do actually believe this because look at Russian military technology. The Russian MiG (??) Foxbat was a copy of the US F111 that had some parts flown back to Mother Russia after they were shot down over North Vietnam. The B29 that mad an emergency landing was dismantled and copied. The list goes on and on. All of this is because communism is unable to produce the engineers that are needed. It stifles competition, which leads to better products for the consumer. It also creates a welfare state that stifles risk taking and an entitlement complex is created within the society.

Haha, mate have you ever heard of the NHS? The National Health Service, that system of health care is completly free of charge, and it's in one of the countries you mention. In Australia I remember there being some measure of free healthcare aswell, in the least government healthcare is heavily subsidized (a word that no doubt makes your eyes see red, no pun intended) Canada also provides free healthcare, so you argument falls flat on it's face dear sir. Providing healtchare and free education (the UK also provides cheap, or free higher education as tuition fees are income based) doesn't constitute laziness or a lack of free thinking. I am rather free to undertake whatever I want, even if I won't be very productive after taking my degree in social anthropology, my government pays for me to gain that degree. Precisley because they promote free thinking and knowledge for everyone - Perhaps that is why Kockums wharf were able to make submarines that frequently best American ones' or why Bofors and SAAB are such succesful producers of military technology (not that a nations armament industry has a semblance of relevance to what we ar discussing, but you brought it up for some reason).

As for educational systems in Russia and other eastern block countries, I really can't argue - But their shortcomings aren't due to them being free. Look at Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, France, The Netherlands... The list goes on, these countries all provide more or less free education and none of them can be called academical hellholes - Quite the opposite actually. Also, thank you for calling me a communist, that made me laugh. And to supplement MehMans's figures - Sweden spends about 9,3% of it's GDP on healthcare, or rather, free healthcare.

But this is still grossly off-topic :cry:

Edited November 8, 2009 by GoOB

[ShadowY 0]

funny thread is this....:bounce3:

[welshdude 10]

funny thread is this....:bounce3:

Wasn't ment to be funny.

Was ment to be a thread to show your respect to the people that died in those events.

This has gone well off topic, please could you just show your respect rather than argue about the evil c**t who caused the 13 deaths.

[jakerod 254]

I strictly remember reading a few times from the article that it's not uncommon to have classes that teach you to "memorize" instead of using critical thinking and objecting in class when you can make a valid argument.

Yeah because no one in the United States has ever had a class like that.

Ontopic:

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of the 18 soldiers. My thoughts go to their families.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Yeah because no one in the United States has ever had a class like that.

Ontopic:

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of the 18 soldiers. My thoughts go to their families.

That is a rhetorical argument that you threw out that deserves no real reply. Just because few professors deviate and has a memorization teaching approach, which falls well outside of the bell curve, does not mean Western universities are the same as Russian higher education institutions. It would be nice if you actually read up on the differences and why Russia has always been the laggard in technology and infrastructure because of their style of teaching.

What about the mig-29, su-27, Sputnik, su-33. And lets not forget the mig-35 and the su-35. Oh and the Mig-25 and Mi-24. And the An-124 and An-225. You list two planes out of many and then apply your flawed logic to everything.

Because I'm only talking about the two of the better known cases of a pure copy, not from a visual perspective, but from having the ability to study an intact bomber or destroyed F111 to copy it from each and every part. The reason the Russians had to copy technology was they were unable to produce what the US and UK were able to build. They couldn't produce the engineers that could create these technologies from scratch. So in order to stay viable and on a some what equal footing, they had to copy technology the best they could.

I love how you are trying to one-up on me because I didn't list all those aircraft you listed.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Hans Ludwig

[derk yall 0]

Hans Ludwig: Ever heard of modern contact lense? The dont came from the west if you want to know.

Sputnik was a copy of what?

AK is copy of What?

Again ex-eastern (it doesnt exist anymore) block (not east, because if you are in russia and go to east, you will end in USA - that to stop the old east-west thing) was not only russia.

You compare apples and oranges. you compare the ex-western block (several countries) against one country (russia). that is not comparable.

Sure that technology is stoled from one country to the other, but that was and still is vice-versa.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Derk Yall