Why doesn't AI use "Step Over" and why sometimes NPCs can run through obstacles?

[Alex72 1]

Fences i dont care about but big objects is a bit of a let down.

[cossack8559 10]

I only noticed this today when i was playing around with a custom mission i made... i had put down sand bags and walls all around an airstrip... the a.i just walked through... was very disappointed :|

[r3volution 0]

Yeah having the AI able to walk through virtually anything is a bit of an immersion killer for me and has been since I started playing Arma. I'd hoped they'd fix the issue for Arma2 but so much for that hope, I have to say in fact due to the fact that the Arma2 gameworld is so much more object rich than the Arma one, the bug becomes even more glaringly obvious in Arma2. What is the point of having all this stuff in the game world if it only really exists in physical reality for the player?

[wiper 0]

Lets treat this sensible folks.

I'd rather live with a litte immersion killer than with a huge gamestopper...

..as it was in Arma for me which I completely stopped doing anything with after I realized that the AI was practically helpless stuck in literally every area with fences, walls and somewhat complex "podesta" buildings.

Yes, I too wanna have an AI stepping over and crawling. But only if it does it 100% perfectly !

If it doesn't in 5% it immediately brings the game 5% closer into a gamestopper, my guessing.

[zeep 3]

What i can't understand is why the AI doesn't have a check for solid routine. The ARMA2 AI is one of the best, BIS clearly can code, but checking for solid object is too difficult? Too cpu consuming?

[rekrul 7]

They could've at least made a T:1000 animation for when they move through walls.

[Touch Off 10]

It does seem as if it isn't really noticed by many.

You really have to want to make a base that you feel shouldn't be able to be got at, unless enemy have tanks or helis etc, for it to really hit home. Just to see em walk through....I was with a mate and we spent a good 30mins building this base then the next 30 trying to get the AI to attack from a specific location. We wanted them to find the 'way in' that we had made.

'Screw that, we'll just walk through the wall'.

This coupled with the fact that AI can't drive, at lest, they can but they drive like Maureen or whatever her name was.

Another : Set an OPFOR jeep and have it 'move' to your location, why doesn't the enemy AI driver get out and start shooting? Does he see that you're an enemy but just can't be arsed to get out of the car? Maybe his seat belt has stuck?

I dunno. Frame rates and performance issues aren't important to me. Mine has pretty much run the same since day one. Only very slight differences here and there..

I thought this was meant to be a realistic military sim with clever AI!

Yes, ok we need to use the editor because the game is maybe more enjoyable that way, but to then have people sorta justify that certain bugs are 'no big deal' is very annoying. It's no big deal to you, maybe, but to anyone else who actually wants this game to be what it tries to be, it's a bit of a shame.

[galzohar 31]

This is happening all the time in towns and cities. It's not uncommon at all. It just doesn't seem to happen in combat which is why people miss it, but when you actually make missions (and check them out by playing a soldier on the enemy's side to make sure positioning/patrols work properly) or look at bots without shooting them, then you definitely notice it very quickly.

[zeep 3]

Is it fixable?

Or likely to get fixed?

[rübe 127]

sadly I have to agree with `Touch Off`. This wall-hack-solution (poor hack to fix bad pathfinding), the poor driving of AI and again pathfinding (the problem with AI and inland watermasses/lakes) are HUGE problems.

The reason for the fact that not that many seem to bother is quite simple: in multiplayer - thus with no or barely any AI (yeah it depends...) those problems aren't visible. But for singleplayer missions (or COOP) this is just frustrating (read: limitating). No convoys, no missions near any lakes, no usefull bases/walls, most buildings aren't enterable at all, barely useable civilians/females...

Details DO matter afterall. :rolleyes:

[NeMeSiS 11]

Or likely to get fixed?

No, and almost certainly not by modders.

[Touch Off 10]

What makes you so sure, NeMeSiS?

Why do you think BIS overlook this problem?

[NeMeSiS 11]

What makes you so sure, NeMeSiS?

Why do you think BIS overlook this problem?

I think its a rather complex problem to solve since you need to detect if the AI is near a fence they can climb over/crawl under and have them play the correct animation. But only if the AI actually planned his route over/under that fence and not when they just walk past it.

I guess it could be done, but it would require constant checks for fences and if the AI is planning to move to the other side of the fence. Which is unreliable, very heavy on the CPU and a pain in the ass to do.

I think that it could only be done properly by BI. The AI currently uses the pathway LODs in/on objects and roads but they should also be able to be forced to use a specific animation when on an objects pathway on a per objectclass basis.

EDIT: Im not even sure if the AI is actually on a pathway when walking trough those small flimsy wooden fences or those small old stone walls so in that case it would probably need some more work. But i guess it could solve the problem for the walls where you can only crawl under as a player.

Edited September 16, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[B17gunner98th 10]

Too bad we can't take Battlefield series AI driving skills and put it together with the ARMA2 bots, lol.

[Touch Off 10]

@ NeMeSIS, Agreed.

Don't get me wrong, I see the game for what it is and how enjoyable it can be, especially if you learn just past the basics of the editor.

I just would love this to be paid attention to, I'm guessing Bohemia will concentrate on issues related to these problems so I'll just have to wait and see I guess.

It's not as if the walls always seem non existent to the AI, that's the strange thing. It can sometimes take em a while to gear up to just waltzing through, mostly they'll be stuck within a boundary untill some point where an AI will prone and his gun will peak through, or a missile will be launched through a fence to them actually just randomly finding the gap somewhere. Maybe it's a placement issue, I have the walls overlapping by a small amount in the editor, maybe I'm doing that wrong??I wonder if there's a certain placement to make sure the fence is 'seen'..and not 'missed' due to the game having problems with where one fence/wall ends and another begins?

They do also find a route quite well at times if put in this predicament, place a fence that maybe links up to an already placed fence on the map and the AI will move off at 90° to find another gap somewhere. Walls will also look to do their job, for a while.

I wondered whether it was because I'd placed walls on the concrete part of the map near the main airpot, whether the unrestricted movement of what is supposed to be a road was overiding any placed objects that may be in the way?

I dunno, cheers Nemesis.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Touch Off

[rübe 127]

@Touch Off: I don't think you can do anything to improve the situation (at least I woudn't waste my time with placement-experiments). The key-observation is, that the AI does NOT wallhack under `normal`/easy circumstances, but still it happens every once in a while. Thus, I guess it's save to conclude, that this wall-hacking behaviour is an intended behaviour (read: poor hack) to guarantee the AI doesn't get stuck all the time...

Now riddle me this: if someone was that desperate to implement such a nasty hack to get rid of an even worse problem, how good do you think is our opportunity that this will get fixed in a reasonable time (read: at all)?

[rekrul 7]

As I've already said (in this thread) - it's been like this since OFP 1.00. It won't be fixed or they would've done it already.

[Touch Off 10]

Ok, ruebe. I see your point.

Rekrul, now I like your honest pessimism but, all I'm saying is that I'd rather have more of us making BIS aware that this is an aspect of the game that should be concentrated on and not to just left as it is.

Does the other sim, VBS2 have this problem aswell?

I'll get over it but it does put me off playing. You don't have to agree with me but I'm not as interested in computer games all that much anymore. I like what ARMA2 has to offer and enjoyed the previous series and am learning scripting so I can explore the creativity in mission making, but it sorta takes a feeling away from the game.

Is there anyone from BIS who would let us all know that this issue is a part of the game for some time to come due to the fact it isn't being worked on at all?

Do the studios know that working on this problem would take too much time and would probably require the game to have large portions of its code rewritten?

Does the other simulation have these issues or are they resolved?

[zeep 3]

Touch Off, maybe pm/email one of the devs and ask? I'd like to know their intentions too.

[rekrul 7]

Rekrul, now I like your honest pessimism but, all I'm saying is that I'd rather have more of us making BIS aware that this is an aspect of the game that should be concentrated on and not to just left as it is.

By all means, it's not like I don't want it fixed - I just don't want you to get your hopes up. :) I don't think it's because BIS doesn't care, I think it's because the entire engine, or big parts of it, has to be reworked.

[lightspeed_aust 681]

a year later and has anyone worked out a fix for this?

[galzohar 31]

I think Rekrul summed it up pretty nicely :(