Bayonet/knife poll

[Prydain 1]

Where are they? Why is it that the most realistic shooter game does not have this feature? When you run out of ammo, when you are up close or when your team-mate starts singing Lady Gaga you need a weapon like this.

Hand to hand combat is obviously extremely hard to implement realistically so why not just have it in a similar fashion to arcade games like CoD4's knifes -- a quick thrust with perhaps randomised animations to keep it fresh.

If ArmA2 has an expansion with bayonets or at least the ability to fight when you run out of ammo I would go to BIS and give every dev a ball massage.

[chaplainDMK 10]

Last time there was a bayonet charge was in WW2 i think...

But having an simple ability to kill at close range (for spec ops) without making too much noise and wasting ammo would be nice

[zordak 10]

Close combat weapons!!, we really need a knife.

[Prydain 1]

Last time there was a bayonet charge was in WW2 i think...

Bayonets where used in the Falklands, British soldiers use bayonets often in Afghanistan. (looking for links now)

But having an simple ability to kill at close range (for spec ops) without making too much noise and wasting ammo would be nice

No, I don't want this to turn into another "ZOMG DELTASAS FASTROPE ASSASSIN!!!1!!" suggestion.

[GoOB 0]

One link pertaining to British soldiers using bayonets to effect in Afghanistan. Along with another reference to what seems to be a rather famous incident. Rather interesting to read about these, I remember reading other reports of bayonets being used to some effect by British soldiers in Afghanistan, though I can't find any other links than the two above. The recounting of The battle of Mount Tumbledown in the Falkands war is also a fascinating read, and a reminder of that the bayonet is hardly dead.

Oh, another link about British bayonet use. Goes to show that air support and fancy sights still aren't always match for a good pair of legs and a sharp piece of metal mounted to the edge of a (thunder)stick: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1138046]/posts.

Edited July 3, 2009 by GoOB

[stevevcb 3]

Oh god yes, we need the cold steel. Seconding Prydain's offer of ball massages if this gets implemented.

[Jonny_LI 10]

British troops ARE fixing bayonets and getting stuck into the enemy daily in the Greenzone in Helmand. Before that 4 Brits fixed bayonets and stormed dug in insurgent posistions in Basra.

Bayonets form a big part of our doctrine in the Brit Infantry, fixing them gets the lads focused and prepared mentally that they're about to close in with the enemy and it's also something thats usefull for smashing the enemies morale - a Section of sweaty angry looking Scotsmen or Fijians running at you with a lump of metal with a blade on the end will sh!t anyone up!

---------- Post added at 04:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 PM ----------

And Pry, you are my enternal love child for airing this suggestion.

When Chris get's back I'm going to slap him constantly till he revives the UKF Bayonets :D

[Sulu 10]

Huzzah for bayonet charges! In the world of modern warfare we still need a knife and some guts behind it.

[Jonny_LI 10]

Oh and in 2001/2 a Royal Marine stormed a room with nothing but a Browning 9mil and a Bayonet in his hand, killed one guy the other sh!t himself and threw his gat down.

[GoOB 0]

As said, this renissance of bayonets is really fascinating to me - The best part is that it seems to work so bloody well, both considering morale and counter-morale. But also considering terms of casualties for those who take to the charge.

As for the bayonets use in ARMAII, well... I'm not too sure about it - It would be a thing to see for sure, but how it would work in game is another matter.

[chaplainDMK 10]

I guess, but i think that a half trained soldier with a PK in his hand will just mow their ass down in a charge...

This is probably cuz of the bad training of the insurgents, but id be scared shitless if i had a crazy brit running towards me with a bayonet attached. :D

But seriusly, their use in a game would suck, we aint scared for our lives, a typical player would be like "oh look their charging... (aims for the officers head, shoots)... that was fun"

[Baff1 0]

It's not so much about scaring them, (Carry On Up The Kyber stylee), as providing a real and useful melee weapon system.

Soldiers can expect to meet enemies at point blank range in any number of combat scenarios. They can and they do.

It's not just the Brits that use them regularly.

U.S.M.C. were deploying bayonets in Fallujah, they were used extensively in the Vietnam War.

In the First Chechen War, Chechen Rebels would heat up their bayonets in campfires before they assaulted.

The French Foreign Legion bayonet attacked the Ghurka's in a training exercise in the alps this year.

The Hondurans in Iraq.

In game Tactics? The same as in real life.

In ArmA, indoors.

Bayonets = FTW.

Also in those trench emplacements that you capture in ArmA PvP.

Bayonets=FTW.

Anywhere you can expect to get close to an enemy during a high mobility engagement. Overrunning a position, or being overrun/defending a position the enemy is attempting to overrun.

FIBUA.

Are there any really tall crop fields in ArmA 2? The soldiers in those 6 ft high cornfields in Afghanistan all deploy them.

(Obviously not the "over the top" WW1 tactics that cost 1,000's of deaths per hour and have been abandoned ever since).

CQB is a traditional achilles heel of BIS games, bayonets would be a step in the right direction to address this.

Weapon collision is already calculated by the engine.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Baff1

[Cpt.Goose 10]

Yeah this game is really lacking in living up to the "combat simulation." Don't get me wrong a good game with lots of bugs, but just missing a lot of fundamentals for being a "as real as it gets" type combat game when arcade like shooters have the features.

[Prydain 1]

I guess, but i think that a half trained soldier with a PK in his hand will just mow their ass down in a charge...

This is probably cuz of the bad training of the insurgents, but id be scared shitless if i had a crazy brit running towards me with a bayonet attached. :D

But seriusly, their use in a game would suck, we aint scared for our lives, a typical player would be like "oh look their charging... (aims for the officers head, shoots)... that was fun"

Bayonets are more of a moral factor, it does encourage you to get in close and get stuck in. I don't feel it is especially hard to stab someone ingame and sometimes just shooting people at a meters distance feels not only wasteful but also uneventful since in real life it would be more preferable to just stab.

Realism was the main goal for BIS, killing from the ground up starts at hand to hand.

U.S.M.C. were using bayonets in Fallujah.

You got any proof of that? I would like to read up on it since I read here that the US doctrine was far less bayonet inclusive.

[Alpha-Kilo 36]

I am not saying anything against the tactics applied in real life, but in the game ArmA2 I have never missed a knife of any kind. If the mission design permits, I take a pistol with a silencer and 2 - 4 magazines. This is good enough for a quiet assassination and also serves as an emergency weapon. If I have to use the pistol as an emergency weapon, I either get out of trouble or die before my ammo is spent.

But then again - if someone at BIS want the offered ball massage I certainly don't want to be in their way. And if bayonets are a possibility I also vote for ceremonial swords for officers, I am just not offering a massage in return.

[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

Wasn't there a story of Brits in Iraq who responded to a convoy ambush with a bayonet charge?

[Prydain 1]

I am not saying anything against the tactics applied in real life, but in the game ArmA2 I have never missed a knife of any kind. If the mission design permits, I take a pistol with a silencer and 2 - 4 magazines. This is good enough for a quiet assassination and also serves as an emergency weapon. If I have to use the pistol as an emergency weapon, I either get out of trouble or die before my ammo is spent.

No, I don't want this to turn into another "ZOMG DELTASAS FASTROPE ASSASSIN!!!1!!" suggestion.

Just make sure we are talking about in all cases, not just when you are playing on your own. If we are talking about platoon strength building clearing I have had no end of times where a bayonet would have been more practical than firing and endangering others with perhaps stray bullets or shoot throughs.

Wasn't there a story of Brits in Iraq who responded to a convoy ambush with a bayonet charge?

I think it was one of the storys mentioned by Jonny. Although, as he says, the British really do have a cold steel obsession so it could have been just another one to add to the pile.

[GoOB 0]

CQB is a traditional achilles heel of BIS games, bayonets would be a step in the right direction to address this.

I haven't played ARMA besides the demo, but the implementations of bayonet use that was in OFP was really, really akward. Both the first attempts and the latter, both quite impractical. I can't imagine it being any different in ARMA II. Pressing "F" three or four times or fiddling with the action menu before you can use your bayonet really hampers it's practical use.

As said, it would be very nice to see bayonets ingame.... But they must be useable to effect, integrated smoothly into the game controls. And I think it's too late for that now, but lets hope either BIS or some of our extremely talented addonmakers proves me wrong.

EDIT: And there's a link some info on a 2004 incident where a group of brits rushed out from their ambushed convoy with bayonets attached in one of my earlier posts in this thread:

here

Edited July 3, 2009 by GoOB

[Baff1 0]

Implimentation is easy.

If your weapon is in collision with another player and you are clicking fire, play the stab animation and apply the damage.

You got any proof of that? I would like to read up on it since I read here that the US doctrine was far less bayonet inclusive.

There is plenty of photographs of the battle online. Sorry I don't have any ready links to hand.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/ is probably a good place to start if you want to track some down.

The reports to the Pentagon of the Marine officer in charge at the Battle of Hue in Vietnam makes for good reading on U.S.M.C. urban tactics. In particular the effectiveness of bayonets at blind street corners.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 PM ----------

I am not saying anything against the tactics applied in real life, but in the game ArmA2 I have never missed a knife of any kind. If the mission design permits, I take a pistol with a silencer and 2 - 4 magazines. This is good enough for a quiet assassination and also serves as an emergency weapon. If I have to use the pistol as an emergency weapon, I either get out of trouble or die before my ammo is spent.

And in the time it takes you to switch weapon, your bayonet equiped enemy, who does not need to switch weapon, will stab you.

Every Warfare mission in ArmA 2 is designed for bayonet use.

In the sandbag fortifications, camping around and peaking and belly crawling in the bases that need to be captured, sneaking around 5 foot to the left to look at one angle and then sneaking back 5 ft again to look at the other.

Why sneak? Just run straight in and gut the bloke while he is lagging with his frame rates, trying to turn around lying down in a tight space and trying to aim at a fast moving target at point blank.

Those bases? All of them are bayonet zones. That is the superior weapon system for the job.

The posts above refer to a story where British soldiers rush some Iraqi's with bayonets; pinned on the street and recieving incoming mortar fire, the troops have no choice, they have to move to a new position. They rush the surrounding houses and mortar emplacements.

They fix bayonets because they are running inside the tight spacial confines of enemy occupied buildings.

Advantage bayonet!

An unwelcome circumstance forces them into a nasty combat situation which they are equiped for and know how to exploit.

How many times in ArmA and even ArmA2 have you walked around a corner in a town only to find an AI enemy standing right next to you?

It happens and it happens often.

When it happens, do I......

A) left click and stab him to death?

B) press reload and hope he doesn't shoot for a few seconds?

C) draw my pistol and hope he doesn't shoot for a few seconds?

I have to confess, this doesn't often happen to me unloaded, but it would still be faster for me to run straight through him stabbing than it would be to raise my gun and aim at his head. More fluid and intuative too. Just as all those U.S. Marines did at the Battle of Hue.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Baff1

[NoRailgunner 0]

Another thread about stabbing, hand-to-hand combat... :icon_rolleyes:

Such a great landscape and some people like to dump the gameplay into CQB stabbing... -CS anyone?

Implimentation is easy....

Every Warfare mission in ArmA 2 is designed for bayonet use.

If that would be true why the developers didnt made proper animations and implemented bayonets for players and AI?

[Jonny_LI 10]

The way our UKF bayonets worked in OFP is if you were within bayonet range of the enemy the animation would play and the enemy would die.

I can assure you it'd be effective in the game as we used it all the time in VCB, it's not a "ninja stealth kilzz" thing, its a viable and aggressive CQB option. You can still fire with the Bayonet fixed which is something you can't do with a knife in your hand. Within OFP if you stormed a bunker or even a sandbagged posistion there was loads of times where you run into it and the enemy weren't killed by the covering fire or the grenade that was lobbed in before the assault went in Instead you'd run in and be presented with the enemy in the prone posistion at your feet spinning to shoot you, rather than trying to aim down and hit him before he hit you the animation kicked in and he'd be killed by the Bayonet instead. I have to say it did give me a slight twinge in my pants when it went in... The point is with ours you didn't have to change weapon for the bayonet to work, only needed to fix it. You could bayonet someone and instantly engage other targets with your rifle or bayonet them aswell!

That was back in the days of OFP - with ArmA2 it should be even easier! You'll probably ask "why don't UKF just do it again?!" Well, the person that did it has since left the community!

With regards to the ambush in Basra that was the event I mentioned previously. Off the top of my head it was the PWRR's that did it in Al'Amara, they charged one posistion, then a second. The third and final posistion had just seen there mates in the other trenches raped and were now faced with 4 angry Brits covered in there mates entrails - they decided it really wasn't meeting a similar fate and so thinned out pretty sharpish!

[Baff1 0]

If that would be true why the developers didnt made proper animations and implemented bayonets for players and AI?

You would be better served asking this question of the developers themselves than me.

[Jonny_LI 10]

Another thread about stabbing, hand-to-hand combat... :icon_rolleyes:

Such a great landscape and some people like to dump the gameplay into CQB stabbing... -CS anyone?

If that would be true why the developers didnt made proper animations and implemented bayonets for players and AI?

The same could be said about the amount of threads about "Snipers" and "Sniping", the game should embrace all aspects of modern Warfare if it's to live up to it's title of a War Simulation, whether it's munitions physics or engaging in CQB.

The fact is ninja stealth knife kills is mostly things of Holywood - Bayonets are used daily by modern armed forces and will fill in a capability gap that this game is. You can engage well at long and medium and even short ranges, but step into a room where the enemy is 1-2 meters away from you and it becomes a gang fcuk.

[NoRailgunner 0]

@Jonny_LI maybe BIS thought about it but dropped because of issues with animations, AI combat etc - nice to have if its runs smooth.

@Baff1 but you say its "easy" ;)

[GoOB 0]

Implimentation is easy.

If your weapon is in collision with another player and you are clicking fire, play the stab animation and apply the damage.

And like so, or rather similar to it I beleive it was implemented in one of the OFP variations - Usually before the stabbing anim was played through you were shot in the face by the AI feck you intended to stab dead. It would end up with both you and the AI dying at the same time.