Really? A crosshair for a "realistic" sim?

[teach 1]

First off, I really like this game. I've been playing BIS games since OFP1. However, isnt it time they get rid of the onscreen crosshair for first person view?

I mean, you can use this thing all day long to make well aimed shots...shots even over distance; shots that should require the basic principles of marksman ship such as breath, posture, and aiming using a sight picture.

One should be forced to use the actual iron sights or optics to do that. Having an onscreen reticle is absolutely ridiculous no matter how you argue or defend it.

Some will say that it is there to translate a "feel" of the gun's aim to a player to overcome the loss of a 2d representation of a computer game played on a keyboard and mouse.

However, this can be still achieved without the crosshair as proven in another of my favorite games, Project Reality. But more than that, one can still get a "feel" for aiming center w/o a crosshair just by knowing the rounds will hit near the center of the screen (unless you are looking elsewhere - but why would you shoot then?). Doesnt that accomplish the same thing?

But, even if you all at BIS were really "married" to the (Id say very wrong and very arcade) on screen reticle (which lessens immersion), then why not change it to something like a big circle that expands and contracts based on fatigue, health, etc? That way, one still gets that "feel" that you all are aiming for (no pun intended) and will satisfy those that will argue why its there. This will also prevent players from making aimed shots at distance without using any sights; any real shooting mechanics. Honestly though, the circle idea would still suck...Im just looking for a compromise.

BIS, its time for some soul searching here and new discussions in my humble opinion. This has to be reconsidered.

There is no way a fine game like this can defend putting a reticle on screen like it is. A reticle that even looks like iron sights no less.

There is no way one should be able to right click, zoom, hold breath, and make an aimed shot while not using the real weapon sights (and thereby being affected by a loss of periphreal vision too - see realism).

I hope there are more diehard realism players out there who think, "You know what...its time to lose this". I hope BIS reconsiders and actually removes it from this fine game.

Not to spam here, but for anyone thats actually played Project Reality (a mod for Battlefield 2), the game plays just great WITHOUT an onscreen, cheesy, crosshair. You actually have to take a second to get behind your sights for an aimed shot...a second you may or may not have....and therein lies added realism for a game that prides itself as having a ton of.

And I know some people will troll in here and yell realism means this and that and wearing pain vests to translate the feeling of getting shot to the player (Ive read them before) so lets keep our feet planted in reality okay. I know the limitiations and sacrifices made for games....this just isnt one of them that needs to be made.

And I know there will be others who will troll in and say, let BIS fix the game first (which I happen to agree with). So, Im asking anyone who wants or cares to comment (if there is anyone out there) to please keep this on topic and refrain from flames, or posts about patches first, or go play somewhere else. I dropped 50 bucks on this game so I think I can ask a question.

I just dont see a place for an onscreen reticle in this sort of infantry sim. Do you?

Edited July 5, 2009 by TeachDJ

[Mc Speedfreak 10]

some players like it or find it helpful... for those that dont... theres always the option to turn this and 3rd person off :)

[teach 1]

True, but what about multiplayer? Is that a problem?

And options aside, why is it even there to begin with? I know some people like it but what about turning it off by default? Is this some sort of Xbox360 thing?

Still, I find it a reality killer that BIS has this in game...even if some folks like it.

Edited July 5, 2009 by TeachDJ

[Mc Speedfreak 10]

in multiplayer it depends on the server settings... it an be enabled or disabled... this can not be bypassed clientside.

the option has always been there... simply set it to veteran or go into your profile settings... you can customise the settings to an extend rarely seen in any game...

[galzohar 31]

True, but what about multiplayer? Is that a problem?

And options aside, why is it even there to begin with? I know some people like it but what about turning it off by default? Is this some sort of Xbox360 thing?

Still, I find it a reality killer that BIS has this in game...even if some folks like it.

Crosshairs, as well as 3rd person, is off by default (and is impossible to turn on) if you play on Expert difficulty. However most people seem to want to play COD with driveable tanks and airplanes so most servers are on the lowest (or 2nd lowest) difficulty, where those arcady realism-wrecking options are available.

Player VS player servers often turn off 3rd person, though, as it allows you to look around obstacles which is practically cheating, but often still allow crosshairs, again to appeal to the masses who prefer COD-style gaming.

[bravo 6 0]

I understand you opinion, i respect it and i also use no cross hair. I hate that little mark in my screen.

Though i think its ok the way it is. Because it can be moded and removed like in the Truemod for ArmA1.

Also you can remove it in the difficulty options. So i think its ok to exist for those who want it on. This game is also about several options to the players.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

I find the crosshair extremely useful in BIS's games. How else would I be able to quickly point at say, an ammo box in order to activate the action menu and rearm?

I know it's not realistic to be hip shooting out to 400m, but your body has a sense called proprioception that allows you to know where your limbs are pointing without being able to see or touch (close your eyes and wave your hand around in-front of you and you'll always know where it is). This ability means you can at least point an object held in your hands in the direction of another distant object quite quickly in real life.

ArmA's crosshairs facilitate proprioception, in a way in which it would be otherwise impossible to do.

[galzohar 31]

I find the crosshair extremely useful in BIS's games. How else would I be able to quickly point at say, an ammo box in order to activate the action menu and rearm?

I know it's not realistic to be hip shooting out to 400m, but your body has a sense called proprioception that allows you to know where your limbs are pointing without being able to see or touch (close your eyes and wave your hand around in-front of you and you'll always know where it is). This ability means you can at least point an object held in your hands in the direction of another distant object quite quickly in real life.

ArmA's crosshairs facilitate proprioception, in a way in which it would be otherwise impossible to do.

Fact is, I manage more than fine with no crosshair. In fact with enough practice you can actually be unrealistically accurate even WITHOUT a crosshair. With a crosshair realism just gets thrown out the window.

The only problem there is by playing with no crosshairs, is that some weapons don't have functional sights, but that's something BI needs to fix, not something that needs to be fixed with crosshairs. Crosshairs are simply dumb and are meant to appeal to the masses that are used to it from various other unrealistic games.

After you play a little with no crosshair you realize how natural and realistic it is, well, at least in comparison to playing with a crosshair. And I do have RL experience of firing without using sights.

[dayglow 2]

The ability to instinctively point and shoot is important in CQB and an onscreen pointer helps with this. I found the A1 Truemod crosshairs with the faint 4 point dianmod the best. Good enough to aim up close point spread out too much for accurate fire at distance.

Can't wait for this mod to be brought over to A2.

[Nutlink 10]

I love my crosshairs in this game. I never use them for actually firing my weapon though, only for a rough idea of how fatigued I am and to point at ammo boxes/vehicles to use. Any other game I prefer NOT to use crosshairs, although I've gotten past the point of caring whether or not people use them or not. Call it unrealistic if you will, but quit complaining about how others play the game and turn it off on your end. Problem solved.

[teach 1]

I love my crosshairs in this game. I never use them for actually firing my weapon though, only for a rough idea of how fatigued I am and to point at ammo boxes/vehicles to use. Any other game I prefer NOT to use crosshairs, although I've gotten past the point of caring whether or not people use them or not. Call it unrealistic if you will, but quit complaining about how others play the game and turn it off on your end. Problem solved.

Well, if you call complaining that something is unrealistic in a game that is supposed to take realism somewhat seriously well...

I do turn it off. My only issue is why is it there in the first place? Especially when it really takes away from realism more than it provides. Again, anyone who has played Project Reality understands that universal removal of the onscreen crosshair still makes for one hell of a game. And it doesnt steal any fun. It actually forces one and all, young and old, to man up and use the iron sights while not cheating with a X360 like schema.

Im talking about the bigger picture where BIS actually still uses it and has it on by default. I think that is a wrong. I think it is a mistake. Turn it off? I do. Am I proposing BIS remove it thus removing it from you? I guess I am. I guess I am asking people to man up for an infantry sim and play realistically.

[dayglow 2]

So it's not enough for you to play the game the way you want, but you need to dictate to others how they should play as well? Find a realism server, join a group of like mnded people and play you like, don't stay awake at night because someone else enjoys playing a different way. This isn't a contest to see how much of a man you are. This is an entertainment product so let others be entertained how they want.

[Mc Speedfreak 10]

omg....

fact 1: you can never make EVERYBODY happy. presume the option would be OFF by default other people might complain.

fact 2: BIS is a company trying to appeal to a broad audience...

fact 3: anybody can decide whether to have it on or off...

so why dont you get some common sense and grow in character, meaning, accepty it the way it is , rather than forcing your opinion on the rest of the community and demanding them to change?... no offence meant.

[Nutlink 10]

Well, if you call complaining that something is unrealistic in a game that is supposed to take realism somewhat seriously well...

I do turn it off. My only issue is why is it there in the first place? Especially when it really takes away from realism more than it provides. Again, anyone who has played Project Reality understands that universal removal of the onscreen crosshair still makes for one hell of a game. And it doesnt steal any fun. It actually forces one and all, young and old, to man up and use the iron sights while not cheating with a X360 like schema.

Im talking about the bigger picture where BIS actually still uses it and has it on by default. I think that is a wrong. I think it is a mistake. Turn it off? I do. Am I proposing BIS remove it thus removing it from you? I guess I am. I guess I am asking people to man up for an infantry sim and play realistically.

If they want to get rid of the crosshairs, fine, but make a more intuitive system for opening ammo boxes and getting in vehicles along with something other than labored breathing for fatigue. Stuff that you wouldn't have any sort of problem dealing with in real life, yet impossible to convey in a video game without any sort of aid, of which the crosshair works for me. What you're doing is kind of complaining, realism or not. It's an aid to help deal with the limitations of a 2d monitor rather than the feel of holding the rifle in your hands.

There are plenty of servers that force first person and no crosshair, and I have no problem with those (and even enjoy playing in them) but crosshairs work great for everything BUT aiming IMO.

Edited July 5, 2009 by BOTA:49

[sparks50 0]

I like the crosshair, It fixes the depth vision that a game cant recreate from real life(IRL you get a good feeling of where your rifle is pointing) and It makes TrackIR usage less confusing.

The only problem I have is that it is way too accurate. Remove the center dot and add some inaccuracy to it(even COD has this) and the aim from hip wouldnt be pixel perfect anymore.

[dmarkwick 261]

True, but what about multiplayer? Is that a problem?

And options aside, why is it even there to begin with? I know some people like it but what about turning it off by default? Is this some sort of Xbox360 thing?

Still, I find it a reality killer that BIS has this in game...even if some folks like it.

So I guess it's an opinion thing. ArmA2, like all games, is released in a state to suit the casual gamer. It's an option to turn it off, I don't see how that's a great problem. In fact, a realism nut will probably go straight to the highest level, where, surprise surprise the crosshairs are disabled :)

As an aside, I like the crosshairs AND realism. I find the crosshairs offsets the 2D limitation of my monitor.

*edit*

And I echo the above, who says that it also removes TrackIR confusion.

[teach 1]

Easy there big fellas.

Yes, I can turn it off and I do.

Im advocating it off by default not ON by default. And in a more larger discussion, Im questioining why it is there in the first place.

Everyone needs to just relax a little bit...take a deep breath.

Thats all I am saying. Yes, I dont think it should be in game. Yes I think it should be off by default. Thats it.

Everyone can settle down.

And on another note, in regards to ammo, I liked how Red Orchestra pulled that one off. Didnt they rate the amount of ammo in a mag by its weight and not an ammo counter on screen?

Thats another one I think BIS got wrong. An actual ammo counter for each bullet. Can that be turned off? What if it can? It still shouldnt be in game and shouldnt be on by default for an infrantry sim designed on reality.

[arma2mods 10]

Keep everything in game, add more options to ppl do what they want.

[galzohar 31]

All I really want is the default difficulty for server creation will be expert. If people really want to make nub-mode servers they should be able to, but the default (for those who create a server not paying attention to difficulty) should be expert.

Also it would be really nice if the difficulties were shown on the server browser and could be used as a filter (minimum difficulty = X, maximum difficulty = Y). Right now you have to join a server to find out if it's nub-mode or not.

Point shooting is more than easy enough without crosshairs. Any kind of crosshairs only make it easier, and having random bullet dispersion is not a good way to implement realism.

[vshadow 0]

I personally like the cross hairs, gets rid of confusion when I had been using the free look mode, as well as what others have said helps with identification of things like ammo boxes.

As people have said you can turn it off, so turn it off, as all your suggestion is to force everyone not to have it because of realism, this would then mean that a lot of gamers who buy the game for something different, but still want it to be familiar to what they are use to will be put off even more, I mean have a look at people all ready complaining about things bean too hard, just imagine what it would be like if there were no cross hairs.

This could then lead to an out of business BI meaning no arma for anyone!

So keep it how it is I think is the best option for everyone, as there are options and nobodies opinions will be forced on anyone.

Just on a side note maybe at the beginning of the game an option for you to have it on or off will appear from the start.

No offence intended as its your right to have an opinion, but remember so do other people this is a two way thing.

[sparks50 0]

Another huge issue is that without the crosshair, you cant identify your team mates.

This makes "veteran" mode almost completely broken in teamwork with voice (COOP), because you cant see where the guy talking, or where your leader is etc.

In real life you would be able to recognize people in your squad who you have worked with for possibly months by faces, body language and shape, voice etc. In Arma they are all generic avatars, and nobody cares about remembering face features that are hard if not impossible to spot during a high intensity combat situation.

Edited July 6, 2009 by sparks50

[galzohar 31]

The fact that most people don't put a lot of thought into setting up their servers, and that the lower difficulties are default, and the fact I can't filter those servers are all major issues in my opinion. I don't care if you want to play with crosshairs, but people who want to play the game in the realistic way it was meant to be played shouldn't have to go through hell to do it - right now you have to convince someone to actually bother changing difficulty from default to expert, or find one of the few servers that did bother with no good way of searching.

[norsu 180]

I always use crosshair in singleplayer because some vehicle weapons have messed up sights so you can't aim their weapons properly, e.g. Pickup (PK).

rant

The need for crosshair when trying to use an object like ammo crate is there because the game is still using the antique action menu thingy for all interacting. If it would use an interacting system like in Thief or Deus Ex (useable object is illuminated or bracketed and then simply used with an action button), there would be no need for the crosshair.

/rant

[Alex72 1]

True, but what about multiplayer? Is that a problem?

And options aside, why is it even there to begin with? I know some people like it but what about turning it off by default? Is this some sort of Xbox360 thing?

Still, I find it a reality killer that BIS has this in game...even if some folks like it.

You seen DCS: Black Shark? The most realistic flight simulator. It has an arcade mode for those new to flight sims. So they can have an easy initiation etc.

Just play on veteran/expert and skip the newbie settings will ya.

[Murklor 10]

This makes "veteran" mode almost completely broken in teamwork with voice (COOP), because you cant see where the guy talking, or where your leader is etc.

That's my main concern with the difficulty levels too. Its usually a generic "all-or-nothing" situation, when in fact there are some things that you need to be able to properly play the game. Hud markers is one of them, even if the crosshair is not.