Really? A crosshair for a "realistic" sim?

[maxter 10]

I'd like to see the crosshairs slightly less accurate.

But most of all, I'd like to be able to turn my own crosshairs off, regardless of what settings the server is using. Being forced to have them on is ridiculous, and you shouldn't have to search forever for a server with higher difficulty settings just to get rid of them.

This should be true for all the settings for that matter. The server's settings should only restrict, not enforce, IMO.

Edited July 7, 2009 by maxter

[An Fiach 10]

I agree, the server settings should restrict elements that could give a player an advantage, not force them to use settings they might like to turn off that would give them a disadvantage by doing so. Also the crosshairs should not be accurate for firing over 50m and shouldn't have that center pip to aid in accuracy.

So far as the movement, a trained soldier makes his weapon follow his head, so yes, walking casually it might be quite loose (this is actually depicted when jogging and running in game) but when at the ready, their weapon will always follow the head and we have freelook for those times when it shouldn't. A bigger issue IMO is the prone turning. If you turn more than 60 degrees in any direction it should require that your avatar shift position with a quick crawling animation. The whole rotating wih your pecker in the dirt thing is absurd.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

The floating feature itself is completely unrealistic. I'll have to play with it some more but so far have found it to behave in an utterly absurd manner. I am not even quite sure of its purpose. f it is intended to simulate natural barrel sway it is a good bit over exaggerated, making the soldier appear as if his arms were naught but soggy noodles.

Back in the days of OFP we all had to use floating zone, and we all enjoyed it. ;)

Its purpose is seperate head from arm movement, a feature all humans (should :eek:) have IRL. That and to keep the noobs in their place... :j:

(I used too many smilies in this post...)

[galzohar 31]

Separate head from arm movement is done by freelook, not floating zone.

Seperate body movement from leg movement is simulated by freelook while aiming, not floating zone.

Aiming at one place while looking at another is simulated by floating zone, but is practically impossible IRL (when pointing at things that you don't remember their location due to seeing them earlier).

A very small floating zone when not aiming to simulate not perfectly aligning your weapon with your eyesight is alright, though far from a perfect solution and might be better off without. Major floating zones like OFP just feels clumsy and dumb and doesn't provide any realism. Same with crosshairs.

Making the crosshairs less accurate will require adding random bullet spread, as right now center-of-the-screen shooting is already too accurate.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Separate head from arm movement is done by freelook, not floating zone.

Why can't it be both? Freelook is different, it's what allows you to look in all directions. Floating zone is there to convince us that we are not robots with fixed arms. Floating zone also allows you to make fine adjustments to your aim without moving your entire body. Why bother arguing over this? It's a feature that defined OFP, so it shall continue to be a default feature in ArmA games.

As for people who claim crosshairs are too accurate, again crosshairs have nothing to do with accuracy. Maybe if some of you people actually tried using them for a bit you could realize that they don't really improve your aim much at all, do to the fact that they also partially obscure your target.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Big Dawg KS

[xxbbcc 6]

Separate head from arm movement is done by freelook, not floating zone.

You still don't get it, do you?

Master gamawa is right, it's not upper body, it's arm movement. (Just for the record, I did write arm movement in my post.)

When you move your arms just by themselves, it's

- faster than a full body movement

- less visible than full body movement

The crosshairs have absolutely nothing to do with accuracy. You're not even supposed to shoot with them. In the rare case when it happens, it's an indication that you fucked up. Even if you survive the incident, it shows that you weren't thinking and got into a bad situation where you had to shoot from the hip. (Sure, this happens to me every once in a while, I'm not perfect either. But in principle, it's the wrong thing to do.)

You're supposed to shoot from behind cover and using the sights/scopes. The crosshairs have nothing to do with it. They represent the point where you look, where your weapon points to and your fatigue level in a very efficient manner. When floating zone is enabled, you need this information otherwise you wouldn't know where your weapon points to and you wouldn't be able to select objects.

And once more: if you don't like the crosshairs, turn them off. No one forces you to use it.

[maxter 10]

And once more: if you don't like the crosshairs, turn them off. No one forces you to use it.

Yes they do.

And don't give me the whole "find a server that doesn't use it" or "host your own server", seriously, it's ridiculous that you can't turn them off when playing on a majority of the server. Just make the option clientside and let those of us who wants to enjoy a game with minimum HUD do so.

This might not be what the thread starter was after, but I personally realise crosshairs won't be permanently removed from the game. My wish is just that it should be fully optional.

[dayglow 2]

FYI there is a mod that will get rid of the redicle even on servers that have it:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=74133

Also TrueMods had the option as well, I hope it comes out for A2 soon.

[IronTrooper 0]

...When floating zone is enabled, you need this information otherwise you wouldn't know where your weapon points to and you wouldn't be able to select objects....

I just wanted to say that you don't really need a crosshair to know where your gun points.

Look at this game: http://dslyecxi.com/botg_infiltration.html

It also has a floating zone (freeaim) but a little larger FOV, so you can see more of your gun and thus very well 'guess' where it points, when you're not looking down the sights.

But I don't really care about this crosshair problem as long as the floating zone can be turned off. When you have it off and even the crosshair, you can still shoot pretty well simply because the gun points 99% of the time in the screen center.

[galzohar 31]

Sure you can aim at different directions without moving your body, but you can't do it without also moving your head+eyes+view. You just can't. Take a rifle and try it, tell me if you hit anything. Aiming (sighted or not) should always be either towards the center of the screen or be inaccurate, nothing else.

If you actually ever fired a real weapon and moved around with a weapon and/or if you actually played Infiltration (linked above), you would understand why what I'm saying is most likely as good as it can be in a game.

Please don't give me that BS about "but you can turn them off" or "but you're not supposed to aim with them". The fact is with them I can save myself from going through the repeated "aim/unaim weapon" animation, and can fire a scoped weapon the same as a non-scoped weapon whenever I choose to, while also being able to use it scoped. It's just not right to be able to do that. And again, please at least try practice some on expert difficulty with 0 floating zone before you go and bash it. I tried playing on recruit difficulty a LOT more than I would've liked. Turning them off client side is also silly because you're just giving yourself an unfair disadvantage.

[dmarkwick 261]

Please don't give me that BS about "but you can turn them off" or "but you're not supposed to aim with them". The fact is with them I can save myself from going through the repeated "aim/unaim weapon" animation, and can fire a scoped weapon the same as a non-scoped weapon whenever I choose to, while also being able to use it scoped.

Hey look, how you decide to play the game is up to you. The option is there to turn it off, if you feel you cannot stomach this I really don't know what to suggest.

It's just not right to be able to do that. And again, please at least try practice some on expert difficulty with 0 floating zone before you go and bash it. I tried playing on recruit difficulty a LOT more than I would've liked. Turning them off client side is also silly because you're just giving yourself an unfair disadvantage.

I guess what you're moaning about is not the system, which works fine what with all it's various options & all, but everyone who hosts a server. If you really expect to jump onto a public server and see realism, well good luck with that :) the crosshair problem is nought compared to online idiocy :D

Unfortunately, finding a server with the right settings is all you can really do, like it or not.

[xxbbcc 6]

The fact is with them I can save myself from going through the repeated "aim/unaim weapon" animation, and can fire a scoped weapon the same as a non-scoped weapon whenever I choose to, while also being able to use it scoped. It's just not right to be able to do that. And again, please at least try practice some on expert difficulty with 0 floating zone before you go and bash it. I tried playing on recruit difficulty a LOT more than I would've liked. Turning them off client side is also silly because you're just giving yourself an unfair disadvantage.

This is exactly why I said you don't get it. First, even according to you, you use it because you want to. I don't use the crosshairs for targeting almost at all.

Second: if you play the game the right way, it doesn't matter whether others have it or not. I said already: if you get into a situation where you need to rely on your crosshair to quickly shoot, you fucked up. In a real-life situation you'd most likely be dead. Not for sure, but most likely.

Having your crosshair on against the AI doesn't matter - they use information from different sources than human players.

I'm not a particularly great player in ArmA, but I can tell you this: if you play against me, I don't care whether you have your crosshairs on or off. It doesn't give you any advantage against me, because I use tactics; I don't rely on you running into my position at ~50m to take you down with the stupid crosshair. (It's flat out unusable for that purpose beyond that distance anyway.) I use the sights/scopes for targeting all times.

Sure, as I said, I sometimes mess up, too, in which chase I do use the crosshair for shooting. But that's a mistake that I'm trying to avoid and so should you.

[kklownboy 43]

crosshairs for targeting is for loosers and noobs. should always be off. But if you want them they are there like your mommy and some coco.... crosshairs! omg. Some servers have them on because then the kids wont show up at there EASY server, and all the rent is for not, so load up a evo turn on crosshairs and play a looser version of this game, but atleast you have the option to be a noob. And if its on in PvP.. wow thats a poop pvp server, those should be banned, but then its still a option for admins to have a reason to pay rent for a server full of noobs.

[galzohar 31]

Crossharis for targeting is for losers and noobs and those that want to be on equal grounds with the other players on the server. Should be always off in the settings of servers that aren't meant for absolute beginners/arcade players. Most servers have them on because kids prefer the server that runs what they're used to from other arcade games... etc (I'd just reword the rest to seem more civil but saying practically the same stuff).

If you play the game the right way, you WILL shoot with your crosshairs rather than your sights most of the time, and will always prefer a scoped weapon. At least if you're doing your best to win. You're right, though, in COOP you can avoid doing unrealistic things since nobody really cares and you'll win anyway, but in PvP it just doesn't work when the opposition knows how to play the game in the difficulty the server is set to. If you're doing what's best for winning, crosshairs are far from a last resort. They're the primary aiming method for typical combat engagement ranges.

It doesn't matter if you use tactics or not. Tactics stay almost the same, except with crosshairs you can shoot much faster and better (under ~200-300m) while having a better view of the world.

[dayglow 2]

crosshairs for targeting is for loosers and noobs. should always be off. But if you want them they are there like your mommy and some coco.... crosshairs! omg. Some servers have them on because then the kids wont show up at there EASY server, and all the rent is for not, so load up a evo turn on crosshairs and play a looser version of this game, but atleast you have the option to be a noob. And if its on in PvP.. wow thats a poop pvp server, those should be banned, but then its still a option for admins to have a reason to pay rent for a server full of noobs.

Sad that you base your self worth on a video game

[frederf 0]

Perhaps he bases his self worth on an ability to perform complex difficult tasks in an environment where unconscionable, unnecessary aids are available but chooses not to use them. Perhaps he is the type of person that would look up his own Google directions to the restaurant instead of bothering his friend over the telephone to describe them, even though bothering his friend would be slightly less work. Perhaps this larger outlook on life merely has a side effect on his opinion of certain video game aspects.

Nah, he's probably just a tool like you said.

[dayglow 2]

No he's the type that doesn't call for directions, arrives at the restaurant and then stands on a table, takes his shirt off and waves it over his head loudly announcing how much of a man he is for getting there.

[teach 1]

Making the crosshairs less accurate will require adding random bullet spread, as right now center-of-the-screen shooting is already too accurate.

Anything shot "from the hip" without sights should have some sort of random spread IMHO. The only way the engine should allow for a precise shot is when sights are used. That would keep people from using that lame crosshair with pip to make accurate shots at distance. Like someone else said, why use your sights and obstruct your view?

With the crosshair gone, trust me, players would quickly adapt. Also, why the lame bullet counters (I say again)? It is just so darn funny to me that they are there. Something are needed to compensate for a translation to a flat panel monitor but that aint one of them. Its just so arcade.

---------- Post added at 02:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ----------

No he's the type that doesn't call for directions, arrives at the restaurant and then stands on a table, takes his shirt off and waves it over his head loudly announcing how much of a man he is for getting there.

Nah. Its more like this:

No crosshair - drinking a beer at the bar.

Crosshair - drinking a beer at the bar through a sippie cup.

Edited July 8, 2009 by TeachDJ

[max power 21]

Cross-hairs are all of a sudden unconscionable, and are somehow now associated with being helpless? Calling your friend to ask him a question is bothering him?

[abs 2]

Anything shot "from the hip" without sights should have some sort of random spread IMHO. The only way the engine should allow for a precise shot is when sights are used. That would keep people from using that lame crosshair with pip to make accurate shots at distance. Like someone else said, why use your sights and obstruct your view?

With the crosshair gone, trust me, players would quickly adapt. Also, why the lame bullet counters (I say again)? It is just so darn funny to me that they are there. Something are needed to compensate for a translation to a flat panel monitor but that aint one of them. Its just so arcade.

---------- Post added at 02:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ----------

Nah. Its more like this:

No crosshair - drinking a beer at the bar.

Crosshair - drinking a beer at the bar through a sippie cup.

So, what exactly would be the difference between Recruit and Veteran mode if you had your way, then?

Abs

[xxbbcc 6]

It's a pointless argument. This one paragraph really has it all:

It doesn't matter if you use tactics or not. Tactics stay almost the same, except with crosshairs you can shoot much faster and better (under ~200-300m) while having a better view of the world.

If you even consider it a good idea to use the crosshairs (on your own free will) instead of the sights, you didn't even begin to understand this game. It really doesn't matter whether the crosshair is present or not, because the issue is with comprehending what this game is about. I have the crosshair on, yet it's been weeks since I last used it in a last desperate attempt to shoot at someone at ~50m.

[spandrel 10]

One thing to point out is that when you're handling a real rifle, there are all kinds of cues that you have available that you don't have when you're sitting in front of a screen. The main thing is probably proprioception-- the sense of knowing where your limbs are, and by extension the weapon that your limbs are holding. Proprioception is the reason there are marksmen who are incredibly accurate when firing from the hip. At one time I was a mean shot with a carbine and I was surprisingly accurate firing from the hip. It was starting to feel like I could hit anything I shot at from any position.

There's simply no possible way to model that with a mouse and I've always thought that having some kind of crosshair does a fairly good job. Goes rather too far though, yes, but maybe people should stop bitching about things that can be switched off in the options.

[teach 1]

You can still get that sense of aiming from the hip without the crosshair by getting a sense for where the bullets will strike using a little practice and understanding of what you are looking at and where the center of the screen is I think. So, the point of the crosshair in this type of sim is off putting and out of place to me.

Yes, it can be turned off in the options. The larger point I was trying to make and what some are talking about is why it is there in the first place for a sim with this design scope, why it is ON by default, and maybe even the larger issue, does it allow players to cheat by using it instead of forcing them to use the sights and thus lose some field of view during a battle.

Id love to mock up a photo of a real soldier in Iraq making an aimed shot at 300 yards without using his sights and holding his breath (as if he was using this crosshair). It would be utterly laughable and downright impossible. Yet there are many people here who argue for it like its some sort of security blanket or pacifier.

Theres got to be some ArmA players who have played some of the Operation Flashpoint mod for Battlefield2 (www.realitymod.com). That group was bold enought to actually remove that crosshair from the game in their mod and the game is much better for it. Players can still make snap shots not using sights and can still fire full or semi auto at close range without a crosshair and or sights accurately. But...BUT....when one wants to make an aimed shot.....one gets behind their sights. Here, BIS didnt do that. They turned them on by default, and even animated the freaking thing. Animated it! Thats a joke.

My crosshair is turned off. Guess what? I know that rapid fire without sights causes increasing inaccuracies and I dont need an animated crosshair. Guess what, I can make relatively accurate center mass shots at close range without it...and the long range ones...I have to use my sights. Guess what? I know that if I run and then try to shoot, my accuracy will be off.

I cant cheat like many do....or are allowed to.

The sights should be at the very least turned off by default. There should also be a way for players to find servers where it is off for everyone (x360 and noob PC players can go elsewhere).

/Fanboy protection ACTIVATED/

Look, BIS aint gonna change a thing here. They dont get it. They miss the point. Heck, they even give one real time ammo counters of bullets in ones magazine! That is pathetic.

/Fanboy protection DEACTIVATED/

BIS made a great game no doubt. I gave them my hard earned money for their hard work. But on this one, in my view and some others here, they missed the point by likely catering to noobs and X360 players in order for mass appeal and sales. They made a great product but fudged in some areas rather than completely breaking new ground and being bold in some areas in terms of true first person realism like its never (NEVER) been done before. Frankly, thats what the games market needs. Bold designs instead of rehashed games with new bells and whistles.

Edited July 8, 2009 by TeachDJ

[abs 2]

Do you want a tissue? You know...for all the crying you're doing.

Abs

[xxbbcc 6]

You're missing the point: you only cheat yourself if you rely on the crosshairs. You don't cheat any good player even if you shoot every time with the crosshair instead of the sights. This is why it doesn't matter that it's on by default.

Hip shooters don't last 5 minutes in ArmA, not even against the AI. If someone is dumb enough to consider using the crosshairs a good thing, it's their funeral. It's not cheating against other players at all.

My crosshair is turned off. Guess what? I know that rapid fire without sights causes increasing inaccuracies and I dont need an animated crosshair. Guess what, I can make relatively accurate center mass shots at close range without it...and the long range ones...I have to use my sights. Guess what? I know that if I run and then try to shoot, my accuracy will be off.

Guess what? You still have a crosshair, it just happens to be invisible. You have a fixed view with a fixed center of screen. That's the only reason you can do hip shooting with any accuracy. If you used a floating zone (as you should), you wouldn't be able to hit anything without the sights.

Do you want a tissue? You know...for all the crying you're doing.

Ha ha ha :)