Petition for mouse fix ~!

[dmarkwick 261]

Are you really saying that in real life aiming goes like this? Mouse smoothing can't simulate "weight and gravity" for weapon, it's dependant on FPS. People with FPS above 100 have that twitch shooter flick shot control over mouse, while people with 50 FPS are aiming all over the place, so wtf?

It's just plain stupid to keep saying it's there to "simulate weapon weight".

That video looks fine to me. There's a real life lag in deciding to move, and actual move. You might not realise it but it's there. In fact you're "programmed" NOT to realise it.

[Dwarden 1125]

this is being looked into ... {just You don't feel ignored}

but with these requests it would be nice to tell us what hardware it was tested:

what helps with the mouse is:

+mouse with own onboard chipset processing the signal (instead of CPU)

+mouse with great dpi and signal polling rate

+monitor with lowest possible input lag (yes many LCDs got very bad delays which are way higher than 50ms)

+no DPC latency spikes

and ARMA 2 related

+high framerate ingame

+vsync off (for some users for others not needed to disable depends on the hw used)

using lower Render Frame Ahead (NVIDIA) and Flip Queue Size (AMD.ATI) than default

Edited July 1, 2009 by Dwarden

[MachineMadness 0]

Tip:

Turn float zone to 0.

[thefoolio888 10]

Arma2 isn't and never will be a twitch shooter.

Amen to that.

I've been waiting yonks for a game that favours team work and tactics over bunny hopping a lightning reactions...and now someone wants to take it away.

Boooooo!!!

[maddogx 13]

The aiming in Arma2 is exactly as it's intended to be. Yes, I acknowledge that some people have a mouse lag problem, I experienced it myself in ArmA once upon a time, but this is a completely different issue that indeed needs fixing.

Bugs aside, the mouse movement in Arma2 is fine though. Not perfect, but it's playable once you've adjusted to it. Of course it's not the same as all the twitch shooters out there. I've played enough of those, some even competitively, so I am fully aware of the differences. Compared to games like Counterstrike, the aiming in Arma2 does in fact feel clunky. Especially if you're trying to wield a machine gun...

I have just one word to say about that: inertia. Look it up.

Edited July 1, 2009 by MadDogX

[Blakey 10]

Amen to that.

I've been waiting yonks for a game that favours team work and tactics over bunny hopping a lightning reactions...and now someone wants to take it away.

Boooooo!!!

Whats wrong with having teamwork and tactics AND lightning fast reactions.

Just because you may be naturally slow, doesnt mean people who are a bit faster than you should be punished by awkward controls.

The people in this thread seem to think that "twitch gamers" = solo players, averse to teamwork and strategy. I think you will find, any decent twitch player relies so much on their team mates, communication and ability to think on the fly to the point where it makes your co-op squads look silly.

We "twitch" gamers are looking at Arma 2 (im loving it btw) seeing a potentially great online shooter, and then seeing a fundemental problem, and trying to address it.

If it was fixed, and you didnt like it - just coat your mousemat in syrup.

[Leopardi 0]

What are you talking about?

Most people who liked OFP, don't like ARMA & ARMA 2 because of the mouselag that makes it unplayable for most. You need a super system +2000€ to play ARMA2 like it's meant to be played because the mouse smoothing is clearly designed for 100 FPS+.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Leopardi

[llauma 0]

I like it the way it is. It's not very realistic to have a precise mouse movement because weapons tends to have some weight which makes instant starts and stops impossible unless you have industrial robot arms.

[robmuzz 12]

...Just my 2pennyth,

ArmA and ArmA2 do a pretty good job of simulating firing a weapon im opinion, when you keep in mind that, it is simulating a gun, that has weight - a lot of weight!

FPS games, seem to me, to do a better job of simulating the ability to "look" at an enemy and kill it, rather than the physical process of Brain -> finger -> trigger -> fire -> flight -> impact!

Simply, I don't think ArmA2 is, or was never intended to be a tourniment style FPS in the same sense as CS,Quake,UT and all that.

[CplBlakeman 10]

I'm fine with the mouse being fixed if there is a problem, but if it was programed like that to simulate realism then it needs to stay in the basic game because that is what it is, a sim shooter. I play a few twitch games as well that use teamwork and realize that a lot of those type of gamers are looking into this type of shooter for the first time. I hope a lot of them can understand what the sim aspect means just as much as the folks here can understand where the more twitch style fps guys are coming from.

If it really wasn't supposed to be that way and folks with great systems have smoother controls where those with medium systems have slow controls, then it needs to be fixed. If it is supposed to be that way for everyone, it needs to stay (and maybe get fixed for the high end systems).

Either way, the more folks that are interested in this game the more money flows into BIS and the more they can focus on getting things fixed/updated/improved/expanded. So lets not let this become a pissing contest about what type of shooter is best.

[Blakey 10]

I like it the way it is. It's not very realistic to have a precise mouse movement because weapons tends to have some weight which makes instant starts and stops impossible unless you have industrial robot arms.

its not very realistic to be able to "heal" 4 legshot wounds in a couple of seconds, and have the guy get up and jog across 5 miles of woodland to the next objective.

But of course it is in the game this way, because gameplay > 100% realism

Having an easily accesible, responsive interface does so much for the gameplay.

[ebud 18]

its not very realistic to be able to "heal" 4 legshot wounds in a couple of seconds, and have the guy get up and jog across 5 miles of woodland to the next objective.

But of course it is in the game this way, because gameplay > 100% realism

Having an easily accesible, responsive interface does so much for the gameplay.

You have your priorities, others have theirs. Mine is crying like a baby to keep this game as fucking far away from CS/BF style gameplay as possible. You want to sidestrafe, bunnyhop or run through a town precisely hipshooting targets 100m away with a flick of the mouse while relying on you mouse skill rather than worrying about getting shot due to poor RL tactics then I'll fight you and and every other twitch-ARMA wannabe every step of the way.

[Leopardi 0]

That video looks fine to me. There's a real life lag in deciding to move, and actual move. You might not realise it but it's there. In fact you're "programmed" NOT to realise it.

You can't be serious....... your real life lag is equal to something 0.00001ms which is the time it takes for the message go through nerves to the muscles.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Are you really saying that in real life aiming goes like this? Mouse smoothing can't simulate "weight and gravity" for weapon, it's dependant on FPS. People with FPS above 100 have that twitch shooter flick shot control over mouse, while people with 50 FPS are aiming all over the place, so wtf?

It's just plain stupid to keep saying it's there to "simulate weapon weight".

If this realy causes major problems then floating can indeed change a lot about it. :)

[alan.rio 18]

Most people who liked OFP, don't like ARMA & ARMA 2 because of the mouselag that makes it unplayable for most. You need a super system +2000€ to play ARMA2 like it's meant to be played because the mouse smoothing is clearly designed for 100 FPS+.

2000 euro system? No. i built mine for 900 jan 2008 and it runs arma just fine on high.

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------

You have your priorities, others have theirs. Mine is crying like a baby to keep this game as fucking far away from CS/BF style gameplay as possible. You want to sidestrafe, bunnyhop or run through a town precisely hipshooting targets 100m away with a flick of the mouse while relying on you mouse skill rather than worrying about getting shot due to poor RL tactics then I'll fight you and and every other twitch-ARMA wannabe every step of the way.

*cheers loudly*

[whisper 0]

this is being looked into ... {just You don't feel ignored}

but with these requests it would be nice to tell us what hardware it was tested:

I'm quoting this because it's the most important piece of information in this whole thread :

BI is checking the issue.

They need help.

Is there a bugtracker issue raised about this. Where we could post configurations that have the issue?

Next : Could BI explain a bit if any smoothing element, additional mouse input treatment, etc... is made and if yes, for what reason? Just so that cries and whines wear off a little and people understand what's going on :)

[dmarkwick 261]

You can't be serious....... your real life lag is equal to something 0.00001ms which is the time it takes for the message go through nerves to the muscles.

I'm not talking of the actual signal speed from brain stem to muscle, which is an irrelevance, but the actual small lag in deciding to move, to actual move, and your mind assuming an instantaneous action, when it is not.

As I said, you're programmed not to notice it :)

However, as I don't wish to get bogged down in such esoteric issues, I'll just put it down to inertia shall I? ;)

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

Whats wrong with having teamwork and tactics AND lightning fast reactions.

Just because you may be naturally slow, doesnt mean people who are a bit faster than you should be punished by awkward controls.

The people in this thread seem to think that "twitch gamers" = solo players, averse to teamwork and strategy. I think you will find, any decent twitch player relies so much on their team mates, communication and ability to think on the fly to the point where it makes your co-op squads look silly.

Nobody mentioned anything about teamwork until you did :)

We "twitch" gamers are looking at Arma 2 (im loving it btw) seeing a potentially great online shooter, and then seeing a fundemental problem, and trying to address it.

If it was fixed, and you didnt like it - just coat your mousemat in syrup.

We "tactical" shooters like the fact that we have to rely on tactics & stance, movement, concealment & coverage. Why not ask a "real soldier" how important twitch shooting is?

1. It simply cannot be done to the extent that it's done in video games. (Which is as good a reason as I've heard yet.)

2. It leads to behavior that precludes judgement & accuracy (in the "real world") and promotes accident & tragedy.

[von_paulus 0]

I like it the way it is. It's not very realistic to have a precise mouse movement because weapons tends to have some weight which makes instant starts and stops impossible unless you have industrial robot arms.

Exactly.

But I understand some people criticism. The main problem with mouse, IMHO, is the rig's performance. If you have 30/40 fps no mouse lag only natural inertia induced by the game physics. That's fine and really helps to delimit/establish the frontier between ARMA and other shooters, and to be more precise, between a milsim and a FPS.

So for me the problem will be solved when ARMA II will be more optimized and lower specs machine can run the game at higher fps.

[Blakey 10]

You have your priorities, others have theirs. Mine is crying like a baby to keep this game as fucking far away from CS/BF style gameplay as possible. You want to sidestrafe, bunnyhop or run through a town precisely hipshooting targets 100m away with a flick of the mouse while relying on you mouse skill rather than worrying about getting shot due to poor RL tactics then I'll fight you and and every other twitch-ARMA wannabe every step of the way.

Excuse me, but when did i at all mention sidestrafing, bunnyhopping or precisely hipshooting targets 100 metres away.

also dont fucking swear at people for raising points, there is no need for it. did i not mention how much i am loving the game? ive "moved" to arma2 simply because i enjoy the tactical gameplay, far more than twitch gameplay. i am not a "twitch arma wannabe" i just want the game to semi-accurately portray the mouse motions i use.

What the fuck is wrong with a responsive system? sure keep the sway ( i like it), keep the weighted feeling. but fuck me, ditch the smoothing, ditch the acceleration, ditch the lazymouse and ditch the attitude that swift precision kills tactics.

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------

Nobody mentioned anything about teamwork until you did

- Teamwork and tactics go hand in hand. one is generally inferred by the other, pedantics do not win arguments, they simply make it appear you have little to no substance to add. Don't try to belittle my point with pedantics.

InBefore "i have tactics for solo play, and i work as a team online" or any other such silliness.

"We "tactical" shooters like the fact that we have to rely on tactics & stance, movement, concealment & coverage. Why not ask a "real soldier" how important twitch shooting is?

1. It simply cannot be done to the extent that it's done in video games. (Which is as good a reason as I've heard yet.)

2. It leads to behavior that precludes judgement & accuracy (in the "real world") and promotes accident & tragedy. "

I love the fact that you cant simply hipshoot, i love the fact you have to be aware of your own movement, concealment, coverage, stance etc, thats why im here discussing the game. its BRILLIANT.

1) Agreed - the extent of twitch in games like cs:s is ridiculous to even think of implementing in arma2

2) Disagree - being able to move my aim when scoped in to the right by a few degrees, precisely should come as standard, when i am prone and long ranging, and need to make a fast shot it should be possible to at least *attempt* it, rather than have some dodgy input lag tell me that i can't

Edited July 1, 2009 by Blakey

[blackettle 10]

In my opinion, the mouse is just fine when shooting. However, I wish the "mouse lag" could be toned down a bit when I am turning my head to look around (detached from weapon) as it seems that my head takes a bit to start turning after I move the mouse and continues moving a bit after I stop moving the mouse.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

just because you may be naturally slow, doesnt mean people who are a bit faster than you should be punished by awkward controls.

On the other hand, people that are trained with CS and CSS (including myself) should not get a competitive advantage either. Shooters are mostly about rapid instinctive reactions, and I dont see how this could possibly be valuable in a long-range sim like like ArmA2.

I assume it would be quite simple to develop a list of factors that should determine the success ArmA. The elements on this list would probably be "cooperation & communication, proper use of terrain & weather conditions, etc...

so the more you improve the mouse-navigation, the more irrelevant all theother previously mentioned factors will become. This is no compromise I am willing to take. And as I said before, this inacceptable lag will dissapear when you increase the floating value, so fast aiming is still very much possible, it just doesnt work like CSS.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Albert Schweitzer

[blackettle 10]

I'm not talking of the actual signal speed from brain stem to muscle, which is an irrelevance, but the actual small lag in deciding to move, to actual move, and your mind assuming an instantaneous action, when it is not.

This is handled perfectly by my brain deciding to move the mouse and then actually moving the mouse.

[ebud 18]

My attitude is from seeing countless posts over the years asking to have gameplay shift toward something similar to CS/BF2. Things such as weapon sway and inertia as well as animation speeds and movement as they are in ARMA/ARMA2 help to create a slow, methodical style of play that I would rather not lose. The problem I have is once you start losing all of the things that make this game different than games such as those I mentioned then you may as well just buy a DF/BF/CS game.

[llauma 0]

What Ebud and others who support a slightly sluggish mouse responce are trying to say is that it doesn't come down to having lightning fast aiming but making sure you don't get yourself into situations where super human aiming is required.

The structure of the game and it's aiming system is different to other games. In normal games the projectile/bullet is spawned in the middle of the screen while in the BIS games it's a 'physical' objects coming out the direction your weapons model is aiming. In other words the mouse movement is very dependant of your frame rate. Your crosshair wont move unless the actual weapon model and soldier also moves. The solution is simply to make sure you run the game with a decent frame rate. Though don't expect it to ever be as responsive as games based on much more basic aiming systems.

[DeZzErX 0]

You have your priorities, others have theirs. Mine is crying like a baby to keep this game as fucking far away from CS/BF style gameplay as possible. You want to sidestrafe, bunnyhop or run through a town precisely hipshooting targets 100m away with a flick of the mouse while relying on you mouse skill rather than worrying about getting shot due to poor RL tactics then I'll fight you and and every other twitch-ARMA wannabe every step of the way.

Well said Ebud!