Damage model - depth

[cartier90 0]

Hi all, long time visitor - first time poster - thought I should actually contribute a post or two as release is near. Have been a OFP fan since 03' , skipped ARMA and have been excited by what iv'e seen.

I have a question on damage (health ) of a player or an enemy and the fidelity of the damage model employed. Are various 'zones' on a body given fixed values ?, i.e headshot hit meaning certain death, leg shot perhaps .25 of health gone?. Or is it a little more sophisticated....

Truth be told, I think I already know the answer, most likely a continuation of OFP and I assume what was present in ARMA1 - say 4 hits in the leg meaning death, with no delineation of 'critical' areas on a body (organs - spine - artieries ).

It would be interesting to know what a round was 'thinking' on the way to a 400 yard off target. Does a higher poly LOD model load from 'its' perspective to differentiate between one area of a target to another ?. I.e, at said distance a target of a human is perhaps 3/4 pixels high, lets says you aim for the 'top' pixel' - does the game engine assume that the head was your target and go directly for that ?, or is it more dynamic than that ?.

Perhaps this is not really a ARMA2 focused q and could apply to any FPS game, given though BIS's obvious commitment to accuracy - I could be forgiven to think thata more realistic damage model was employed.

The flight sim IL - Sturmovik 1946 improved on its predecessor by having each round from a gun modelled independantly - rather than the older game giving essentially random values to each round and distributing them within a pre scripted 'cone' of fire. Should I assume this is modelled in ARMA 2 ?

Edited May 16, 2009 by cartier90

[maddogx 13]

The damage system in Arma2 will probably (and unfortunately) be the same as in ArmA1. So yes, you can assume that a few shots in the leg will kill a soldier. As for your your question about LODs and pixels - OFP/ArmA/Arma2 models have special geometry LODs to handle damage.

Thinking about better damage models though, it would really be great to get something more complex, though it would probably put too much strain on the engine. Just imagine a system where the human unit models actually have their organs represented as geometry objects inside the body. ArmA1 already has a bullet penetration system, so you could make the bullets actually penetrate the body (with realistic penetration values) and actually see if they damage the "organs". That would mean a bullet that just barely scratches the torso geometry would no longer cause the same damage as a bullet straight into the heart. Also, it would finally be possible to model body armor properly, making it less penetrable etc.

So instead of the engine saying "Oh dear, torso shot. That causes 0.8 damage. Soldier is dead", the engine would make the bullet penetrate the unit geometry and see where it hits. No vital organs damaged? Great, soldier is bleeding and can be bandaged. Bullet hit the heart? Tough luck.

Like I said before, a system like that would probably kill the engine performance in large firefights, but I wish it were possible.

[chrismvts 10]

I think if your hit in the head its death on impact but if your shot in the leg other players can treat your wound and get you back in the fight. It may be that only some units are able to perform medical treatment though, at least thats what Igathered from one of the videos I watched.

[maddogx 13]

I think if your hit in the head its death on impact but if your shot in the leg other players can treat your wound and get you back in the fight. It may be that only some units are able to perform medical treatment though, at least thats what Igathered from one of the videos I watched.

That's already possible in ArmA1 for wounded soldiers. In A2 it seems that downed units (normally beyond help and considered "dead" in A1) can still be saved if you get to them in time. Not sure how the system will work exactly, but I'll go out on a limb and assume it'll be similar to revival in the Battlefield and Enemy Territory series, just not as quick and unrealistic.

[cartier90 0]

I suppose its too much to ask of current hardware then...Is body armour to be introduced ? or was this already in ARMA1 - if so, again, is it too much to ask that 9mm rounds do not hurt you and 7.62 does - as is often seen IRL with body armour.

[TeRp 1]

Well, a lot of games can actually proper armor, at least for vehicles,

Even most arcade games today do (e.g. the Battlefield series, including Battlefield Heroes), yet I don't think BIS has improved their damage & hitpoint system.

I consider the statements on arma2.com (like "including material penetration") to be for marketing only, as they were for ArmA 1, and expect ArmA 2 to have the same system for damaging calculation as Armed Assault and OFP had.

[max power 21]

Some kind of infantry armour is already included in the original ArmA.

[kt187 10]

Operation Flash Point 2 is going to have a pretty graphic damage system where if your hit with a quad 50.cal you wont have much left of your body. You can be dismembered in OFP2 and bleed out. Also I do belive your body armor is realisitic in that it can stop Ak-47 and under rounds.

From the screen shots and video it looks like Arma2 has some new damage models, and ballistics so they should and if not then OFP2 will beat them.

[chrismvts 10]

So is Arma 2 basicly Arma 1 but with better graphics? Or are there extra things in the 2nd instalment?

Ive never player Arma 1 so bare with me please :confused:

Im really only interested in human coop against AI enemy.

[max power 21]

Operation Flash Point 2 is going to have a pretty graphic damage system where if your hit with a quad 50.cal you wont have much left of your body. You can be dismembered in OFP2 and bleed out. Also I do belive your body armor is realisitic in that it can stop Ak-47 and under rounds.

From the screen shots and video it looks like Arma2 has some new damage models, and ballistics so they should and if not then OFP2 will beat them.

Yeah, with a look at the media DR has out right now I'm not sure that some unconfirmed wounding system is going to be the difference between whether or not it beats ArmA 2.

So is Arma 2 basicly Arma 1 but with better graphics? Or are there extra things in the 2nd instalment?

Ive never player Arma 1 so bare with me please

Im really only interested in human coop against AI enemy.

Well, if you've not played the first one, then you have nothing to compare the differences to.

New units, more factions, better campaign, the world is not an island, better AI, better tracers simulation, new flight model for converti-planes, Coop campaign, better LOD system for plant life, non-tide affected inland bodies of water, a medical 'revive' system, the ability to carry and/or drag wounded or dead men, 'plug and play' game logic for native civilian and animal life, WARFARE 2.0, smoother game-play with a revised animation system, a much higher fidelity sound engine, new GUI with simple and complex command layers, a 3d editor... and those are just what I can recall off of the top of my head for the non-graphical differences between ArmA 1 and ArmA 2.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Max Power

[cartier90 0]

Sounds good ^^ - almost glad I skipped ARMA - the step up OFPR should be a significant one. Slightly off topic, I am intrigued how flying jets will work over a 'small' area. Small in regard to the amount of ground covered - surely the whole of Chenarus would be covered in 2 / 3 minutes...

[cm 0]

Sounds good ^^ - almost glad I skipped ARMA - the step up OFPR should be a significant one. Slightly off topic, I am intrigued how flying jets will work over a 'small' area. Small in regard to the amount of ground covered - surely the whole of Chenarus would be covered in 2 / 3 minutes...

Yep... 2-3 mins sounds about right ;)

[EricM 0]

That's OT, but you can fly endlessly in arma... it's just that you're over water after those 2-3min of flight (more in sopwith camel)... but you don't get shot like in BF2 if you go out of the map.

Regarding the damage model, I think the engine could supports organs and limbs perfectly, because that's already doable for vehicles : tracks, tires, electronics, tank fuel etc... It should be just the same : named selections on the fire geometry lod.

[Baff1 0]

I'd certainly like to see more advanced damage models.

Particularly with vehicles, most especially with tanks.

The full body eviscerations, or gibs as we used to call them in the Quake days, that is described in OpF 2 sound really rubbish to me.

Pandering to the teen/"I'm an adult" crowd.

I much prefer the ArmA, OpF way. No need for gore. Just a blood splot on the area of the body hit to demark that it has been and where, and then game effects like poor aim, lowered stamina, inability to walk...bleed outs etc.

I'm hoping the ability of medics to treat incapacitated soldiers in game and stop them dying, will not result in some kind of re-animation system or respawns, but will instead add a very tactical element to the game of what to do with the wounded.

Leading to medivac encouters or combat medic adventures.

Also it might lead to moral decisions about going back in to rescue them or allowing them to die in order to save more lives.

I think an off screen campaign management phase where those not rescued didn't return to combat, or were replaced by raw recruits instead of increasingly veteran ones Ghost Recon style, would be cool.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Baff1

[max power 21]

YOu lose the missions if a razor team member dies. Of course it will be a 'reanimation'.

[Baff1 0]

In Rainbow Six, your troops could be incapacitated not dead.

They were dead for all purposes in the game. They could do nothing, but they had a pulse and after skipping a few missions for R&R they could be returned to active service.

I liked it. It appealed to my sense of realism.

R6 Vegas had a re-animation system. Bloody aweful. 60 bullets to the head? Give the man an injection!

Edited May 18, 2009 by Baff1

[maddogx 13]

R6 Vegas had a re-animation system. Bloody aweful. 60 bullets to the head? Give the man an injection!

That's exactly what I'm hoping not to happen in Arma2. An arcadish revival system is all well and good, so long as it doesn't push certain boundaries.

[Lou Montana 101]

YOu lose the missions if a razor team member dies. Of course it will be a 'reanimation'.

I wouldn't say that ! I saw the (Gamestar ?) screenshot saying "debriefing : one of the team razor has been killed, mission canceled" ; but it's saying "we can't accept such a loss at this time" or so.

As dev's said, if you lose your speaking-russian-and-chernarussian-language, you won't be able further to speak to civilians.

Who's this guy ? Cooper...

OT, I don't like the idea of flying body parts being a "must have" ; I'm far more concerned about the "I shoot one Abrams with 5-6 PK magazines" problem :-/ it wasn't in OFP, it's now in ArmA...

Could be fun to have bullets crossing glasses, even some little armor doing no to few damage, but bullet crossing vehicle from left to right :

inside a M113, you would see the first impact, the bullet crossing the passengers room (and some skulls ?), and hitting the other armor plate (maybe crossing too if really powerful, but quickly "dying" to the floor after that)

You won't take M113 as cover anymore :)

Edited May 18, 2009 by Lou Montana

[max power 21]

That's exactly what I'm hoping not to happen in Arma2. An arcadish revival system is all well and good, so long as it doesn't push certain boundaries.

They said that certain things will be lethal so I'd imagine that if a razor team member gets a bullet to the noggin, you can always hit the 'retry' button.

[kt187 10]

They said that certain things will be lethal so I'd imagine that if a razor team member gets a bullet to the noggin, you can always hit the 'retry' button.

I thought you only had a minute or so to stabilize a wounded buddy, Thats the best and I hope you can shoot the wounded guys some more like Full Metal Jacket when the sniper keeps shooting the guy.

I dont want to be carry my wounded buddy he gets shot but doesnt die you know.

[volkov956 0]

well it seems I will be the bad guy in a MP game going around executing downed opponents so they cant be resurrected

[Steakslim 1]

Hehe, if you play ACE mod, then you're already used to doing that.

[max power 21]

I thought you only had a minute or so to stabilize a wounded buddy, Thats the best and I hope you can shoot the wounded guys some more like Full Metal Jacket when the sniper keeps shooting the guy.

I dont want to be carry my wounded buddy he gets shot but doesnt die you know.

They said some wounds would be lethal, so assume they would either be head shots or shots to the genitals... probably the genitals.

[Alex72 1]

They will also die after a while if they bleed etc. So it wont be just wounded lying on the ground waiting to get resurrected or executed.

[That guy 10]

I cant wait to see what ACE2 does with this new improved medical system. It will be awesome, I am sure of it :D

But, granted i would like to see limbs getting injured individually, rather than simultaneously

(IE get shot in left arm, right arm also has wound texture)