"Realistic Reticles" should change their size with zoom!

[mr.g-c 6]

Just watched the latest Arma2 footage from that Czech TV today and i was overall pretty impressed by Arma2 prettiness :D:eek:, however there is one mistake that BIS makes still since OFP1 times:

When you zoom, your reticle must change its size with the zoom to be still valid - otherwise calling it "realistic/real" is only half-true. :p

I agree maybe not that important for "casual gamer", but many fans of your series definitely care about:

For instance if later mods will make realistic sight-adjustments for sniper rifles or Tank Fire-Control-Systems, the reticle must change its size too with zoom-level, so you can still PROPERLY aim and estimate distance with mildots/chevrons and others, no matter how far you zoom - thats how its done in Real Life!

I really hope you will change this for the Final game or make this time a very easy method for modding this - thanks for reading this @ Devs! :D

Also, i hope there will be a option with configs/scripting to jump between certain zoom levels/magnifications - because in RL not all Optics have a "continuously variable zoom", some can only jump between magnifications (many electronic ones) .

Best Regards, Christian

Edited April 11, 2009 by mr.g-c

[dunedain 48]

I tried to watch the video, even at low quality it's a slide show .. :'(

[SaBrE_UK 0]

I agree about the reticle zooming thing, although a modder could work around this by making the reticle part of the tank's model (internal LOD only), hovering just in front of the optics. This wouldn't work for all vehicles, though- just AFVs.

[Takko 10]

Hi there,

Except for the

but many fans

(I think everybody should speak for himself and not others) its a good suggestion, but for me just low level if even.

[nodunit 397]

I agree about the reticle zooming thing, although a modder could work around this by making the reticle part of the tank's model (internal LOD only), hovering just in front of the optics. This wouldn't work for all vehicles, though- just AFVs.

I don't see how that would be a good idea with the tank, remember todays systems are mostly digital so it's unlikely the reticle and other various information displayed would change size regardless of zoom.

[opteryx 1562]

I don't see how that would be a good idea with the tank, remember todays systems are mostly digital so it's unlikely the reticle and other various information displayed would change size regardless of zoom.

They do actually, both on the GPS and GAS.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Opteryx

[bravo 6 0]

is that video available somewhere?

I have not seen it.. damnit. :(

[opteryx 1562]

is that video available somewhere?

I have not seen it.. damnit. :(

Hmm, just search some YouTube vids of Steelbeasts.

[nodunit 397]

They do actually, both on the GPS and GAS.

Oooh okay I see what you mean now, though I think using the optic as part of the geometry would be a bad idea since the size in high zoom would be ridiculously big, enough to pretty much block your view almost entirerly.

@ bravo6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s06NFgH6qw 2:13-2:20

Edited April 11, 2009 by NodUnit

[mr.g-c 6]

Hi there,

Except for the

(I think everybody should speak for himself and not others) its a good suggestion, but for me just low level if even.

Actually my thinking behind that "claim" was this:

Fans = people playing Arma/OFP still today (majority modded versions).

My observations = Most Arma players switched to ACE-Mod (counted in peak times over 80 servers having "ACE" in their name).

ACE Mod = Realism = Realistic Reticles + Realistic ballistics + Realistics Zooms/maginifications (both vehicles and personal weapons) - rectile zoom = Proper aiming/ranges estimations with Mildots/similar is quite useless when not in default zoom.

But forgive me if i excluded you :p

So alone for those many fans i think it would be of use to have it properly/realistic.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Oooh okay I see what you mean now, though I think using the optic as part of the geometry would be a bad idea since the size in high zoom would be ridiculously big, enough to pretty much block your view almost entirerly.

@ bravo6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s06NFgH6qw 2:13-2:20

Err... That wouldn't be a problem if it's correctly sized in the first place.

[mr.g-c 6]

Err... That wouldn't be a problem if it's correctly sized in the first place.

Agree!

Also (if i consider Steel beasts as "realistic") BIS can see that like i written before, not all Zoom able optics have a continuous variable zoom - the M1 and Leopard2 optics can "only" switch between different magnifications.... this is unrealistic since OFP1 and when its apparently not fixed for Arma2 in stock, please give modders the possibility!!!

[SaBrE_UK 0]

please give modders the possibility!!!

That's something I'd like to see. Even if it's after the full release, if the game gets an expansion, once they've got the KÄ they might be able to indulge the fans in a few things they've been asking for since 2001. Even if it's only opening the code up, or giving us a module system or whatever, it'd allow so much more content.

[headspace 0]

Real riflescopes actually come in two flavors, first focal plane and second focal plane. Second focal plane has the reticle in, you guessed it, the second focal plane. With this system, the zooming works much like it does in ArmA, with mil-dots and other artifacts subtending an angular distance that's dependant on the level of zoom.

First focal plane, found on most scopes that are procured by the military, has the feature where the reticle scales with the level of zoom.

Oooh okay I see what you mean now, though I think using the optic as part of the geometry would be a bad idea since the size in high zoom would be ridiculously big, enough to pretty much block your view almost entirerly.

Which is a problem with FFP scopes, particularly ones with busy reticles. There's still a significant advantage with that system, however, due to the advantages it gives with being able to use the ranging indicators (such as mil dots) at any level of zoom.

This discussion is really just academic; there are a hell of a lot more aspects of practical long range rifle shooting other than your optics to worry about that aren't modeled/would be hard to model in ArmA. Trace being one of the bigger ones, and of course wind effects.

[welcome to hell 23]

Yea the reticles are kind of too big and bad looking, hope they fix that.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Thanks for the info Headspace. What level of simulation do you think should be present in a game such as ARMA2, or ACE mod for it? I've never fired a rifle so obviously I know little about actual shooting.

[mr.g-c 6]

For personal scoped weapons:

- I would like to be able to properly estimate distance (by mildot or similar method) at any zoom/magnification like in RL (like Headspace told it wiht the military optics)

- I would like to be able to make proper quick adjustments with mildot or similar method at any zoom/magnification. For instance aiming one mildot higher, etc..

For Tanks/IFV optics/reticles its the same...

Who on earth needs "realistic reticles/optics" at tanks/IFV - like BIS advertised with on GC08 - if they turn "non-valid" or "non-working" once you zoomed and tiny bit out of "initial zoom/magnification" ?

We need this folks (in case of M1 cannon reticle):

Initial Zoomed Optics in M1 Tank

Zoomed Optices in M1 Tank

[headspace 0]

Thanks for the info Headspace. What level of simulation do you think should be present in a game such as ARMA2, or ACE mod for it? I've never fired a rifle so obviously I know little about actual shooting.

Well, let's step back here and look at a few factors that influence precision/long range rifle as compared to the infantry fighting rifle that is the core of ArmA/A2's simulation. I feel that ArmA is an infantry combat simulator more than it is a long range shooting simulator. There are certain aspects of long range shooting which, while possible to implement, could generate diminishing returns in exchange for effort spent.

The realistically dimensioned reticles that you find in ACE--most of which were derived from NWD's "accurate ballistics" mod--combined with the ability to adjust the number of clicks on your optic (also a feature in ACE) is sufficient, I think, to satsifactorily approximate what actually happens in real life. I'm not experienced with military application of scoped rifles but I do have quite a bit of experience setting up scoped rifles and developing handloads for them. While a first focal plane reticle is very helpful in ranging, it's not mandatory provided you know your reticle dimensions at a given focus.

With that in mind, the other factors such as trace and wind effects might be difficult to simulate without things getting gimmicky. Having a script that constantly affects the bullet's drift would be one solution, but I can see the opportunity there for accuracy problems (which I won't elaborate on, but is based on my experience developing the missile guidance for the AH1Z in ACE, which uses a similar type of real time scripting).

The core issue here is diminishing returns for lots of effort put in, and I think that at the point we're at with ACE, we have a pretty good platform to work with as-is.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Headspace

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Thanks for the reply. I understand compromises need to be made- ARMA2 is still a game, but if there was, say, a harder difficulty setting that correctly simulated trace and wind with all its nuances (no heavy script workarounds necessary) it could only be a good thing, right?

Obviously it won't happen, at least not in ARMA2, but a future game could do this no doubt. I can dream.

[MehMan 0]

Fans = people playing Arma/OFP still today (majority modded versions).

My observations = Most Arma players switched to ACE-Mod (counted in peak times over 80 servers having "ACE" in their name).

ACE Mod = Realism = Realistic Reticles + Realistic ballistics + Realistics Zooms/maginifications (both vehicles and personal weapons) - rectile zoom = Proper aiming/ranges estimations with Mildots/similar is quite useless when not in default zoom.

Contrary to your beliefs most people who bought ArmA don't post here.

[11aTony 0]

This isnt exacly on topic but...

Anyone knows how will it look like in A2 when you zoom in. Is it gonna be the same as in ArmA1 when you have scope cross and black around or is it going to look like using aimpoint with a difference of zoom. So you see the world around scope. Atleast acog sights could be made like that. There is a mod for GRAW1/2 (Brettzies Weapons Pack) where this is made very well with acogs. Not for 6x scopes though. Maybe I didnt explain it that well, I hope you know what Im talking about.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

3D sights can cause a massive performance drop. Maybe viable in some games, I don't know about ARMA2.

[11aTony 0]

Mmm... no performance drop in GRAW. Even Area 51 or smt (very lame game though) had this. It would be nice atleast for acog becouse it is mostly useless for targets closer then 100m. Alternative is to fire from hip... not that good without cross.

Edited April 18, 2009 by 11aTony

[NoRailgunner 0]

11aTony train to shoot without those magical white cross. ;)

[11aTony 0]

Sure, but the thing is that shooting from hip is accurate to like 20, 30m, maybe bit more. You usually get lost in acogs 4x (I think) zoom under 100m or so. Therefore, lets say 50m to 100m it is quite hard to hit targets fast without spending to much ammo sometimes. In OFP style open terrain battles it doesnt really matter, but in urban it does.