ArmA2 and Bohemia Interactive

[Michael_Wittman 0]

When i was growing up i used to make model tanks and collect armys of plastic soldiers. then i made battlefields for them to go on, then i found a book on table top wargame rules and tried to simulate stratergy using tape measures and dice. Then it got really complicated and i wrote my own rules which included armour thickness and angles of impact etc. All this was very complicated and a small skirmish could take all evening. Many years later i saw operation flashpoint advertised and bought it. This was just amazing. nothing else has been able to recreate that immersion i used to get. The point being there are lots of other people out there like me always trying to recreate that relistic and strategic war game. There is nothing else that can compare and i have tried them. Bis is doing a great job and to me it looks like Arma2 is fantastic. It is a development and it gets better and better.

Ooooh! good lord...you MUST try Combat Mission ... its old ... but still kick ass

[ricbar89 0]

When i was growing up i used to make model tanks and collect armys of plastic soldiers. then i made battlefields for them to go on, then i found a book on table top wargame rules and tried to simulate stratergy using tape measures and dice. Then it got really complicated and i wrote my own rules which included armour thickness and angles of impact etc. All this was very complicated and a small skirmish could take all evening. Many years later i saw operation flashpoint advertised and bought it. This was just amazing. nothing else has been able to recreate that immersion i used to get. The point being there are lots of other people out there like me always trying to recreate that relistic and strategic war game. There is nothing else that can compare and i have tried them. Bis is doing a great job and to me it looks like Arma2 is fantastic. It is a development and it gets better and better.

Ooooh! good lord...you MUST try Combat Mission ... its old ... but still kick ass  

I used to play combat mission, the very first, Operation Overlord or somehing i think

[maxqubit 1]

^^ But i'm 99% that if you throw ArmA2 at a casual gamer he won't like it.

A casual gamers simply won't 'understand' a game like ArmA  (heck they have even trouble to 'understand' a big map like GTA4 or FarCry2 and want a 'fast travel' system)

Now try to explain 'ballistics' to a casual gamer, a gamer who is used to laser like shots.

Now try to explain that you could be shot by an unseen bullet/enemy after a 15 minute 'walk' without having fired 1 shot

Above are just a few simple examples, besides the usual gfx stuff.

Trying to sell ArmA2 to casual gamers you should first make sure ArmA2 is a good GAME ... which is a heck of a task if you want to keep the 'difficult' (realistic) bits. Tbh, i don't see that happening and therefor i said that ArmA2 will be a niche game, unnoticed/unwanted by the CoDMW masses.

And your point is wrong. You see casual gamers as dumb asses who understands nothing out of your "casual gamer" stereotype. That is pretty elitist view and wrong.

How come they still buy and play (and enjoy) those games? GTA is hard as nails to learn to play well, atleast back in days of Liberty City. ArmA's flightmodel is eaaaasy compared to it.

Try flying 15 minutes and then crash to ground just before you were to finish that mission. Aaaaaand re-start from start after getting out of from hospital, stealing car and be chased by polices.

What is realistically difficult in ArmA??? Sniper AI performing shots which world's elite snipers would not be capable of? Thru darkness without NVGs.

Sure wrap in you niece-gamer wrappings. However reality has already proven multiple times that you are wrong.

I don't know what you are on about???

ArmA2 will be a small game compared to the CoD or GTA franchise. So, a niche game built by a small dev team.

I would really be surprised if masses of 'casual' gamers would pick up ArmA2. Why would they? Even the name Armed Assault doesn't ring any bells for casual gamers arma2 360 on gf

If you think that is an elitist view? I just think that it is plain common sense.

[Alex72 1]

*First off, DirectX 10 hasnt been a tremendous success - alot of games designers haven't bothered implementing in, or have left it as part of some "Very High Detail" graphics setting, not least because of the fact that only about 20-30% of PC users have computers capable of supporting DirectX10, and much less have the right hardware to run a DX10 game well. So BIS is little different to a large majority of companies that have released games since Vista came out.

*Damn right... I know people who would sell their own mothers to have a game like Rogue Spear remade with modern graphics  

So true - both statements.

[Second 0]

maxqubit:

Do you remember how well OFP sold   I wouldn't call that niece. Sure xbox might be different, but Elite wasn't most hottest game from reviewer's standpoint if i remember right, and that somewhat means that it doesn't get name and it doesnt' get sold. But in PC markets changes for good sales for excellent game are big, granted not in scale of COD as EA can muster with it's marketing-skillz and -powerz to sell game which was like a lot by reviewers. But i could think that BIS doesn't even expect that (but hoping it ofcourse). I don't know single shooter which would have got high scores but yet be doomed to remain as a niece game with low sales. That is problem of more marginal game-genres.

Infact i wouldnt' call even ArmA a niece game. We don't know official figures, but i'm prone to think that it sold reasonably well. Not superb but definedly not bad. It's said to be still sold with relatively big price for it's age (i've seen this in few stores, every time i'm surprised how high price it has), which suggests that game still has value. Not that i would know damn about what defines game's price, but some seems to think that this is the case.

One fascinating myth to bust would be smallness of BIS. I tend to think it's more medium sized than small sized, but all i can do is guess.

[lockjaw-65- 0]

Do you remember how well OFP sold   I wouldn't call that niece. Sure xbox might be different, i don't know. But in PC markets changes for good sales for excellent game are way bigger. I don't know single shooter which would have got high scores but yet be doomed to remain as a niece game with low sales. That is problem of more marginal game-genres.

Infact i wouldnt' call even ArmA a niece game. We don't know official figures, but i'm prone to think that it sold reasonably well. Not superb but definedly not bad. It's said to be still sold with relatively big price for it's age (i've seen this in few stores, every time i'm surprised how high price it has), which suggests that game still has value. Not that i would know damn about what defines game's price, but some seems to think that this is the case.

One fascinating myth to bust would be smallness of BIS. I tend to think it's more medium sized than small sized, but all i can do is guess.

I remember buying games before flashpoint such as delta force, and playing them for a couple of months before moving on to another. played flashpoint on and off for 4 years. Been playing arma since german release and still playing now. Well got my monies worth lol.  

I would call it a niece game though, Think of how many times you have talked to regular gamers who have never heard of flashpoint and arma

Having said that now and again i get a surprise from someone who i would not have thought had heard of it, but they got it in there collection..

[Second 0]

I would call it a niece game though, Think of how many times you have talked to regular gamers who have never heard of flashpoint and arma

Having said that now and again i get a surprise from someone who i would not have thought had heard of it, but they got it in there collection..

Where all those million(s) of sold copies of OFP then went? Did BIS and 300 BIS-fans buy them? I just don't understand what is so hard in this? Someone care to explain?

OFP wasn't first game which was unknown title but from it's release it "skyrocketed" and earned it's name... And sold quite well too. And it is not last of that kind either.

[maxqubit 1]

I would call it a niece game though, Think of how many times you have talked to regular gamers who have never heard of flashpoint and arma

Having said that now and again i get a surprise from someone who i would not have thought had heard of it, but they got it in there collection..

Where all those million(s) of sold copies of OFP then went? Did BIS and 300 BIS-fans buy them? I just don't understand what is so hard in this? Someone care to explain?

OFP wasn't first game which was unknown title but from it's release it "skyrocketed" and earned it's name... And sold quite well too. And it is not last of that kind either.

So HOW MANY copies did ArmA sell?

Take THAT number and you can have a pretty decent prediction how ArmA2 will sell. Of course consoles could help a bit if the game will be any good (like in FUN, possibly a forbidden word)

There is a change that CM's OFP2 will sell a million copies. That game will probably be a bit more 'gamy', will definitely be multiplatform, will have the NAME, a bigger dev team, and the DIRT/GRID engine fame to add to their marketing strategy.

Thinking 1 million OFP = 1 million ArmA2 is just much and much too simple (and dangerously romantic)

[mr.g-c 6]

I would call it a niece game though, Think of how many times you have talked to regular gamers who have never heard of flashpoint and arma

Having said that now and again i get a surprise from someone who i would not have thought had heard of it, but they got it in there collection..

Where all those million(s) of sold copies of OFP then went? Did BIS and 300 BIS-fans buy them? I just don't understand what is so hard in this? Someone care to explain?

OFP wasn't first game which was unknown title but from it's release it "skyrocketed" and earned it's name... And sold quite well too. And it is not last of that kind either.

Arma sold afaik (according to some press interview with BIS pre-summer 2008) 300.000 copies worldwide.

OFP1 for PC sold (according to what i read somewhere some time ago and what i can recall now) 1.400.000+ copies.

Edit: can find sources anymore, so please correct me if i remember it wrong.

Now take the worldwide economic situation into account as it was really really bad as OFP1 came out (11. September, Dotcom bubble-burst with following recession, etc.) also there were not yet the "new markets" available in the form as they are currently and around Arma1 release (China, old eastern-europe, russia, countries in south-america, etc.).

Furthermore OFP was one of a kind, it was the first game creating a new genre of military simulations, it felt "complete", "polished", whatever (unlike Arma).

And yes, nearly everyone of old friends/classmates i had at the time OFP1 was released, did own the game - in fact around 3/4 of the classmates bought it at the time.

I know no-one which did not knew or at least has heard of Operation Flashpoint - it impacted really like a bomb (at least here in germany).  

[maxqubit 1]

Arma sold afaik (according to some press interview with BIS pre-summer 2008) 300.000 copies worldwide.

300k? Hmm not that bad (but still only 20% of what OFP did)  Perhaps 500k for ArmA2 could be possible (with the other million+ to CM's OFP2?)

We'll see.

(And to make it clear, i wish both companies the best of luck/sales and i will buy both games ... on 360!!! that is)

[sparks50 0]

Timing is everything. OFP came to a empty table back in its time.

[mr.g-c 6]

Timing is everything. OFP came to a empty table back in its time.

You mean in relation to Codies game?

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps 500k for ArmA2 could be possible (with the other million+ to CM's OFP2?)

We'll see.

Actually thats even way to less compared to what the "game-idea" (free open world, nearly endless modding possibilites, etc.) deserves.

If they had made Arma1 in a stage comparable with OFP 1.96 and not so much Problems with Publishers, they would maybe could have cracked the 750.000 already.

Also why should Codemasters sell more copies automatically? Because of the "name" (OFP)?

If Arma2 will go back to the roots on the one side, but offering this time really something new and exiting additionally (there are 10.000 suggestions here to improve infantry combat), then there should be 1.000.000 copies or more possible alone on PC-Platform.

And the community really needs many customers/players - 0,1% of them are potential modders/mission-designers

Hopefully they found enough publishers worldwide.

[Lou Montana 101]

OFP1 for PC sold (according to what i read somewhere some time ago and what i can recall now) 1.400.000+ copies.

Edit: can find sources anymore, so please correct me if i remember it wrong.

IDEA Games informations found it  

Over 1.700.000 OFP copies sold !

BTW,

Quote[/b] ]The research and development team of Bohemia Interactive has more than 40 experienced developers at studios in the Czech Republic and Australia.

Edit : and from http://www.hoovers.com/, BIS are only 5 in Praha (Prague) !

[ck-claw 1]

Surely you can't compare sales?

Ofp 7 yrs?

Arma just over 2?

[mr.g-c 6]

Surely you can't compare sales?

Ofp 7 yrs?

Arma just over 2?

Of course you can! Come on' you are not serious are you?

OFP1 was already not widely buyable anymore in 2005 (exception the Xbox Elite version of course) and if they were a version then it was a GOTY 15€ lowbudget-Version.

Also the major difference is that OFP1 was "awesome" and Arma1 only "average" if not worse - every major game-press (online-)Newspaper have written exactly that.

You know that OFP1 got OVER 90%/Gold/Platin ratings in (german) gaming magazines, and Arma1 only between 55% and 72% ? Not even bronze....

You know that two major Gaming Magazines in Germany have voted Arma into the Top5 of the "worst games 2006&2007" ?

You know that Community People in a german Game Magazine voted Arma into the top10 of the "most bugged games ever"?

Do you know how people in many many german gaming communities call Arma? Its called "Alpha Assault" or "Bug Assault" there

You know what happens in many German Forums if a noob asks in 2008, if its worth to buy a 10€ Armed-Assault copy?

They say: "Use the money for a bucket of beer or go to cinema - there you have more fun".

So, the above said is not really good for selling rates, don't you think?

I would even say that even when Arma1 would be available for another 10 years, that not more than additional 10.000 copies would be sold.

BTW: It's absolutely not my opinion what i written above, i play Arma (only modded) even today and enjoy it with my two brohters/some friends.

I'm also not sure if its just the german "closeminded-ness / perfectness" which is responsible for all the hard words against Arma which you can find in german community/comments to Arma2 Videos/Interviews....

So i just posted that to make clear that there won't be any major selling-rate increases for Arma1 anymore (at least not in Germany).

"Der Zug ist bereits abgefahren" (This train has already departed - like we would say here in germany)

[Second 0]

Where all those million(s) of sold copies of OFP then went? Did BIS and 300 BIS-fans buy them? I just don't understand what is so hard in this? Someone care to explain?

OFP wasn't first game which was unknown title but from it's release it "skyrocketed" and earned it's name... And sold quite well too. And it is not last of that kind either.

So HOW MANY copies did ArmA sell?

Don't you read what i wrote?

I think ArmA scored averagely about 80 maybe bit more.

OFP scored way over 90.

OFP: Elite is more unknown to me, but i'd believe not better than ArmA, possibly even worse. I've seen one review, by magazine which insight i mostly appreciate, scoring it lower than 80.

Notice the pattern here. Now:

If ArmA2 scores over 90 ... I leave it up everyone to decide what that means to sales.

ck-claw: i read from game-box of OFP GOTY that CWC itself sold million that would suggest that those were bought in side year of release (however how reliable that info is?). And games tends to reach their peak pretty soon. I believe i've read that average main sale time is just weeks (even days) from release and that includes mega-hits as well. after that cash-flow starts to grow smaller and smaller.

Lou Montana: Thanks. I've never got this BI and BIS axis. Just how seperate they are? How much do they work on same stuff (= ArmA2). Or is ArmA2 mainly just BIS's projects. If 5 men is most workforce ArmA2 has, then... Damn, they are small.

[sparks50 0]

Do you mean BIA?(Bohemia Interactive Australia) BI and BIS is the same thing.

[mr.g-c 6]

Do you mean BIA?(Bohemia Interactive Australia) BI and BIS is the same thing.

And actually from a monytary point of view, BIA is the same thing too...

It's a 100% daughter company from BIS, that means every profit goes direct into BIS pockets

[sparks50 0]

I wish they could cooperate more and share solutions. I don't think the army would mind(or at least I wouldn't, and cooperation could cut down on the costs of the simulation)

I guess being on different sides of the globe complicates this a bit.

Anyway, its dumb to speculate in another mans business. Better keep my mouth shut

[Serclaes 0]

It's a 100% daughter company from BIS, that means every profit goes direct into BIS pockets  

Oh really? You gotta tell us sometime where your sources are from. Have you ever thought about funding your theories with proof? Or maybe you just project.  

[mr.g-c 6]

It's a 100% daughter company from BIS, that means every profit goes direct into BIS pockets  

Oh really? You gotta tell us sometime where your sources are from. Have you ever thought about funding your theories with proof? Or maybe you just project.  

Lol theories....go learn some business related stuff...

Seriously:

I was reading that numerous times when for any "press-event" about Arma1 or Arma2, an Author of an press-article "short cuts" into BIS history.....

They often write something like "Back in 200X, Bohemia Interactive founded BIA in Australia, to offer Solutions for the military based on their game-engine"... and so on and so forth....

Now, i don't know what you think, but when they say that they "founded BIA", does it mean for me they founded it (gegründet).

Now for what else of my "theories" you need proof?

Do you want to say i "make things up" when i write here?

Trust me i don't!

[W0lle 1048]

Alright so BIA is a subsidiary company of BIS (or even not). So what? What you want to achieve with this discussion?

What this fact has to do with ArmA2? Except that some models currently used in VBS2 are being used in ArmA2 too.

We really don't need another endless discussion of BIS is evil because they get money from BIA (allegedly) which in return makes money from developing a military training simulation.

We all know where this ends at:

1. People coming up demanding that everything from VBS2 must be in ArmA2 (and be it just because ArmA1 was totally bugged upon release).

2. Next might be insults because it's clear that 1. never happens.

3. The thread gets locked because 1 or 2 or both.

So, end of discussion re. BIS and BIA relationship. It's pointless, really.

[maxqubit 1]

Also why should Codemasters sell more copies automatically? Because of the "name" (OFP)?

No, because of the name CODEMASTERS:)

'From the makers of the very succesful DIRT and GRID games, now comes the ultimate military simulator, the sequel to the million seller OFP ... we present Operation Flashpoint 2'

Or something along those lines. With simultaneous release on PC, 360 and PS3, with demo's and stuff to boot and a lot of marketing ... i think you get the picture here:)

(otoh, CM needs to sell more, cause i guess they have invested more in developing OFP2 ... and those bills have to be paid ... i think the target should at least be 1 million copies)

[sparks50 0]

Alright so BIA is a subsidiary company of BIS (or even not). So what? What you want to achieve with this discussion?

Well, a wise man said its not a discussion until someone disagrees.

I'm just trying to understand what Second is saying, not starting ww3

[EricM 0]

What's a niece game ? Do you mean niche ? like in targeted at a smaller audience ? Or is it a typo for Nice ?

I don't see it as a hardcore sim. It's no instant run and gun, it needs commitment to show it's true potential, but it's not really "niche"... it's rather "rough".

The thing is that many casual gamers don't bother downloading content (missions or addons) and don't dive in the editor or scripting, therefore they can't grasp the richness of the title.

If there was an official mission repository and an "auto update" button, like for World in Conflict, were you can get new maps and patches on a regular basis without the hassle of scouring the forums, it would surely help to spread the game among casual gamers.

I mean I bought the game for my brother and we play it regularly. He truely enjoys it when I make or download a great mission, but he never plays alone or with other people because he doesn't want to spend time in the editor or looking for stuff in armaholic and other forums. He'd probably play a lot more if there was an official ingame browser to download officialy approved missions and stuff...