ka-52 flight

[POTS 0]

We all know that the ka-50 in ArmA was under done as far as flight capability goes. So it appears that there is a new helicopter here, ka-52. Now, i have no idea if the ka-50 will also be in, but please make sure the flight is to spec. The ka-52 and ka-50 are both capable of doing a full 360 flat spin (pedal) turn at FULL speed. Yes, it can fly sideways and backwards at full speed. This is why it exceeds so many helicopters, it can turn around in less than 3 seconds. It's turning makes up for it's limited auto cannon. It can spin around at whatever speed and remain at it's speed because it is wind resistant. Most people found the ka-50/52 pointless and inaffective in arma because it has a limited turn capability like a normal helicopter. Now that we have the new ArmA2 coming up, and the engine is being upgraded and worked on, PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Fix the pedal turn limitation! I believe the ka-52 is a little slower in flight speed than the ka-50 but it's turn capability is exactly the same. If this isn't fixed I will find a way to do a triple face palm, however that works.

[max power 21]

I know it has a very high yaw rate, but I find the premise that it can fly in any direction with equal ease highly unlikely.

[aus_twisted 0]

It can spin around at whatever speed and remain at it's speed because it is wind resistant.

Sorry but there's no such aircraft in the world that is "wind resistant" unless you take it into space. The reason why the KA-50 can spin around at speed is because of it's twin rotor design, a typical chopper with 1 main rotor needs a tail rotor to counter for the torque generated from the main rotor.

[Inkompetent 0]

As far as I know the Ka-50 can not turn the aircraft without changing its direction of flight at speeds over 100km/h. At faster speeds the fuselage catches too much wind for that to be possible.

Non the less it can indeed turn around its axis at even higher speeds. It is not immune to the law of physics though

But indeed - a better flight model would be nice. It is good for the helicopters as it is already, but there are always room for improvement. Especially for the Ka-50 and its lack of tail rotor that makes it quite different from the rest of the helicopters.

[ricnunes 0]

The reason why the KA-50 can spin around at speed is because of it's twin rotor design, a typical chopper with 1 main rotor needs a tail rotor to counter for the torque generated from the main rotor.

Just as a side note:

I was assured by real helicopter pilots, that the "more conventional" helicopters with one main rotor and one tail rotor always have tail rotor authority at higher (and all) speeds. This is one thing that's very wrong with ArmA helicopters where we don't have any tail rotor authority at higher speeds.

[max power 21]

Yeah, it should have some good yaw authority at all speeds because it has a rudder. I think the best addition to the helicopter that could be made is an autonomous turret, though.

[Alex72 1]

Dont know how hard it is in arma to make a heli "side-fly" without being forced forward too hard. But its commonly known that the KA50 can fly on the side in speeds faster than "slow" (dont got the correct info).

Check the whole of this video (3:22 min): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucTjZsp6hVM

Would be nice if it was possible to fly side ways a bit easier than arma1 just to get a more realistic feel of the kamov. imo anyway. If we can get VTOL on the JSF then why not KA side flight.

[POTS 0]

It can spin around at whatever speed and remain at it's speed because it is wind resistant.

Sorry but there's no such aircraft in the world that is "wind resistant" unless you take it into space. The reason why the KA-50 can spin around at speed is because of it's twin rotor design, a typical chopper with 1 main rotor needs a tail rotor to counter for the torque generated from the main rotor.

I ment wind resistant as in it's rotor system, I was typing it pretty fast and forgot to put some things in. Sorry for wording it badly. Anyway, it can do a full pedal spin (flat spin) in the full flight speed range. I think thats simple enough for BIS.

[bospor 0]

If they plan on adding the REAL Ka-52 into Arma, they would have to change the game engine a bit. That chopper is really a wonder of helicopter industry. It can fly forward at 300 km/hr and 80 km/hr sideways or backwards. One of the coolest tricks it can do is circling around its prey at 80 km/hr and blast it the hell out of it. There was nothing like that available from Ka-50 in Arma. IMO it was the most useless OPFOR addon in Arma after Shilka (the latest patch Shilka). The real cannon of the Ka-52 is a son of a bitch. They gave it a hell of a punch and mounted it to the body of a chopper for higher acuracy. The counter-rotating blades give way less "shaking" in the chopper (there must be a better term, sorry, can't think of it) than the traditional helicopter with a tilt rotor. For these reasons Ka-52 must have the most acurate cannon among all the modern gunships. In Arma it was almost exactly the opposite. Even a little tilt forward for aiming, resulted in moving forward, therefore loosing the aim and getting closer to the enemy that just easily blasts you with MGs. Sorry, but Arma in NO WAYS was a military simulator for all these little reasons. If Arma2 developers spend more time on game engine and less time on graphics, we might get closer to a true military simulator. Lets hope they are listening...

[max power 21]

Well, with the KA52, you have a gunner to control the cannon so it should be less of an issue.

[POTS 0]

80km/hr? I hear things that range from 120km/hr to 220km/hr, but 80km/hr is a new one. It says that it's capable of doing a flat spin in the full flight speed range, so i highly doubt it's 80km/hr.

[max power 21]

It says that it's capable of doing a flat spin in the full flight speed

Oh, I doubt it.

[POTS 0]

It says that it's capable of doing a flat spin in the full flight speed

Oh, I doubt it.

oh really...

EDIT: Well, I found some sights that said 80km/hr sidewards, and 90km/hr backwards, but that doesn't mean it cant break out of it's speed. Which is what I think they mean now. So I guess it may slow, but it isn't stopped by it's current speed like in arma.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-50.htm

[Maddmatt 1]

It says that it's capable of doing a flat spin in the full flight speed

Oh, I doubt it.

oh really...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-50.htm

I read that and nothing I saw proved your point. Maybe I missed something?

The closest I found:

Quote[/b] ]The HOKUM is fully aerobatic. It can perform loops, roll, and “the funnelâ€, where the aircraft will maintain a concentrated point of fire while flying circles of varying altitude, elevation, and airspeed around the target.

Due to aerodynamics I doubt it would be able to maintain top speed while turning. If it tried to fly sideways at top speed it would, at least, decelerate.

The KA-52 is heavier and maybe less aerodynamic than the KA-50, so it wont be quite as fast and/or maneuverable.

I do agree that the KA-50 in ArmA lacks the maneuverability that makes it special in the real world. Hopefully ArmA 2 will improve on that for the KA-52.

[POTS 0]

"Because of this, this aircraft is unaffected by wind strength and direction, has an unlimited hovering turn rate, and gives a smaller profile and acoustic signature, while allowing a 10-15% greater power margin. The HOKUM is fully aerobatic. It can perform loops, roll, and “the funnelâ€, where the aircraft will maintain a concentrated point of fire while flying circles of varying altitude, elevation, and airspeed around the target. "

- website i had just posted before

"Absence of the tail rotor enables the helicopter to perform flat turns within the entire flight speed range."

- http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka-50/ka50_en.htm

[max power 21]

Flat turns, if that is even a term, does not seem to imply flat spins.  It seems to mean it has yaw authority at all speeds, and its fuselage and vertical stabilizer provide enough aerodynamic force to alter its course.  This likely has more to do with the fact that it has a rudder than anything else.  Also, 'flat turns' does not imply sideways or backwards flight at all, and hardly even implies a large degree of fuselage deflection- only that it is capable of turning while maintaining a semblance of level flight.

[mr.g-c 6]

72 @ Oct. 11 2008,06:57)]Dont know how hard it is in arma to make a heli "side-fly" without being forced forward too hard. But its commonly known that the KA50 can fly on the side in speeds faster than "slow" (dont got the correct info).

Check the whole of this video (3:22 min): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucTjZsp6hVM

Would be nice if it was possible to fly side ways a bit easier than arma1 just to get a more realistic feel of the kamov. imo anyway. If we can get VTOL on the JSF then why not KA side flight.

Absolutely Awesome!

I love especially the maneuver to fly up to a hill, quick turn 180° and fly back....

This maneuver would be so great to be able to perform it in A2.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Lets hope that Arma2 AI pilots are improved and optimized too. Would be really bad if they fly those aircrafts like in ArmA. Btw has anybody tested AI in DCS: Black Shark?

[max power 21]

Lets hope that Arma2 AI pilots are improved and optimized too. Would be really bad if they fly those aircrafts like in ArmA. Btw has anybody tested AI in DCS: Black Shark?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing myself. If anyone has done at least a passable flight model for the capabilities of the real thing, it's Eagle Dynamics.

[bospor 0]

I also hope to see working ejection system on Ka-52, correct me if I am wrong, but this is the only gunship that has such system. In my opinion all other choppers in A2 should not allow the pilots to just eject. That would be very realistic and make the game less BF2 like and more simulator like.

[POTS 0]

Flat turns, if that is even a term, does not seem to imply flat spins.  It seems to mean it has yaw authority at all speeds, and its fuselage and vertical stabilizer provide enough aerodynamic force to alter its course.  This likely has more to do with the fact that it has a rudder than anything else.  Also, 'flat turns' does not imply sideways or backwards flight at all, and hardly even implies a large degree of fuselage deflection- only that it is capable of turning while maintaining a semblance of level flight.

It is commonly used for tracks, where the track turns and remains flat. So it should be pretty simialer.

[geloxo 2]

In my opinion flight improvement is really needed and most of the features to achieve it are already available on ArmA now. From my (short) experience while working on the handy tools choppers scripts what I noticed is:

1. Flight physics can be improved by a proper configuration of the default models .cpp (surfaces, flight related variables, etc) but also some intermediate solutions are possible forcing visuals on the model via scripting. For instance I played with vectorup to override chopper tilting while landing. I guess this can also be a solution to the rudder issue you have been discussing by using setdir on the unit.

2. AI should not use the same routines they use "as soldiers" when they fly. Most of the worse results I saw in vanilla were caused by too agresive speed and altitude changes on the bird when pilot needs to change direction, for instance, or when an enemy unit is engaged. In fact this can be easily solved by issuing domove, limitspeed and flyinheight commands via scripting. On the other side the formation flight supports this approach too but collision avoidance routines should be refined a little bit.

In my opinion the potencial of what is currently included in ArmA (hopefully improved in ArmA2) allows to have a pretty good combat flight simulation. It´s a matter of tunning only. Developers are the ones who know all the internals of the engine and have the chance to get the most of it, or even change them a little bit, on the next release.

I would kindly ask BIS to think about that because the result could be really impressive with not so much effort from their side. If you have the chance to take a look on what I did on my scripts you will see this is not so difficult and the result, although not perfect obiously, changes the behaviour of air units drastically (refer to point 2 above). If those comments or my code could help a little bit to Arma2 development I would be very pleased when flying the birds on the new game release

Cheers

[.kju 3245]

geloxo can to share your config changes or are these already

in the latest release of handy tools?

[geloxo 2]

geloxo can to share your config changes or are these already

in the latest release of handy tools?

No no, sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn´t mean I have made any change on the configs (if I would have done it I will share it, for sure). I just wanted to explain that this is one of the posibilities to improve, in additon to scripting. Indeed some of the already published models have diferent flight behaviours due to those small modifications on the config variables. Problem is that people usually copy the config "as it is" from any existing model or just use a parent class, such as the one of the blackhawk, to create their own, and therefore all published helicopters or airplanes more or less "share" the same flight behaviour which is similar to the game default ones.

Cheers

[.kju 3245]

Thanks for the clarification. You are right.