Binoculars

[benreeper 0]

My vote is to not make them easier and quicker to use. There should be "risk versus reward" when using them.

--Ben

[dslyecxi 23]

Taking sidearm should take time it isn't instantly in your hand.

I could drop any object in my hands and both move out of the way and draw my pistol in a ridiculously short period of time compared to how ArmA "models" it. Same with my rifle.

The current binocular behavior is an animation issue with how ArmA was done, and the ArmA animation system. It probably wasn't high-priority to fix, or was too difficult to do after-the-fact.

I hope that ArmA2 addresses this. It would be a welcomed change.

Really, though, all the arguments in this thread so far about the "realism" of being locked in one place while drawing/putting away binoculars are completely and utterly ridiculous. It's almost as absurd as the arguments about how you can't reload and move at the same time in reality - utter nonsense arguments that attempt to justify a "feature" that is actually an oversight, bug, or simply an underdeveloped aspect of the game.

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]Good luck with that. In my experience its not possible to remove the NVGs from the action menu, so I'm surmising it will be the same story with the binoculars, that is, unless something monumentally huge has happened in the last 5 days that my absence has caused me to miss.

That actually may be the case. There are special tags that specify if a weapon isBinocular and certain use actions. There's a lot of room for flexibility there that may or may not be able to achieve that rather small point. Never-the-less move enabled binoculars are a possibility. A tricky possibility but one all the same.

I'm going to try to code some new binoculars tonight to see if I can improve anything.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The problem with binoculars isn't the time it takes to do the animation, I can live with that. The problem is that it in certain cases has to go through a *series* of animation during stowing, in which you are killed in the meantime. This complete standstill thingy is also a major pain, since what you see through binocs differ from what you saw before you pulled them out -- all of a sudden there is a branch or leaf in the way. Leaning might not help either. Then you have to go though this animation sequence before you can shift 10 cm in order to maybe get the binocs view better. My "solutions":

* Direct change animation from binocs to previous weapon, not via main weapon first. OR, ALWAYS change to main weapon instead of through mainweapon to tube weapon (unsure what the problem here is, except that there ARE some issues )

* Allow micro strafing without "walking animation" while binocs is being used. This way, you obviously can't "move" properly if this is the creators intent, but it should allow you to actually use the binocs through bushes etc and get a good view without constantly changing from weapon to binocs.

As for animation goes, all animations should be able to break out from. I.e a slow Javelin deployment (which is waaay too fast in the game btw), should be able to quickly cancel to hit the dirt when needed. I like the attemts of not giving us insta-changes, but not when it gets us killed doing them because the game engine design prevents us from doing the natural things.

[.kju 3244]

How does that look like guys?

A.C.E Binocular

We will try to make the standing anim not look so strange.

Also we are still working on AI use. AI will probably use the BI

binoc and players the A.C.E one.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Looking very good to me. I care less about how it "looks", although I admit having a smile on my face when I watched it

Will this be moddeable in terms of possible zoom levels (even maybe turn zoom completely off) without having to change the whole package? I remember a scopefix mod having a few options available within the same package.

Is it possible to have two binocs within a mission or will this cause problems? Reason I'm asking is that some of our guys are complaining being stuck with iron sights (although G36s are usually available) and no binocs, but I have made my own trueview version so that binocs can zoom quite powerful, to "simulate" spotters equipment. But this is "too powerful" for the casual grunt. Having two available would have been better. The point being *how* he can utilize the binocs, not how "good he looks" while doing it

[Quenaelin 0]

Taking sidearm should take time it isn't instantly in your hand.

I could drop any object in my hands and both move out of the way and draw my pistol in a ridiculously short period of time compared to how ArmA "models" it. Same with my rifle.

The current binocular behavior is an animation issue with how ArmA was done, and the ArmA animation system. It probably wasn't high-priority to fix, or was too difficult to do after-the-fact.

I hope that ArmA2 addresses this. It would be a welcomed change.

Really, though, all the arguments in this thread so far about the "realism" of being locked in one place while drawing/putting away binoculars are completely and utterly ridiculous. It's almost as absurd as the arguments about how you can't reload and move at the same time in reality - utter nonsense arguments that attempt to justify a "feature" that is actually an oversight, bug, or simply an underdeveloped aspect of the game.

Changing to sidearm doesn't take long time in this game, it only feels like it when you are under fire. You have to remember these are average times someone could take it faster or slower. I am usually otherside in these unrealistic/realistic arguements. I just don't want to make anykind of change for abusing binoculars in MP game, they should be used in long range observation purposes only, not in close range firefights.

[.kju 3244]

It is zoomable on purpose. It can easily get a fix zoom too.

This will be a standalone addon.

Not sure about your " two binocs within a mission".

I planned to disable the standard binoc for humans.

You will still have it in the inventory though.

So can you please got into more details here.

[Undeceived 392]

Really, though, all the arguments in this thread so far about the "realism" of being locked in one place while drawing/putting away binoculars are completely and utterly ridiculous.

But you have to admit, that not being able to move 1 meter when suddenly a leaf is in front of your sight isn't realistic at much though.

Or did I misunterstand your post?

[Col. Faulkner 0]

How does that look like guys?

A.C.E Binocular

We will try to make the standing anim not look so strange.

Also we are still working on AI use. AI will probably use the BI

binoc and players the A.C.E one.  

Yes, that looks pretty much like the thing I did.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Sure. Please PM me the code and I can make a PROPER addon.  

Sorry, I never caught this post earlier. It's very simple to do

in any case (and you seem to have got it on your own now

anyway).

[dslyecxi 23]

Quote[/b] ]Changing to sidearm doesn't take long time in this game, it only feels like it when you are under fire.

It "feels like it" when you're under fire because:

1) You cannot move while 'changing to sidearm'- you can't dodge, duck, run, or anything.

2) The animation is slow and lazy, and oftentimes you will get some odd behavior where it will go through another animation first.

In short, it's not even remotely close to anything that can be construed as realism. The sad thing is that we have people trying to justify this behavior as if it isn't an obvious game limitation/bug/oversight.

Quote[/b] ]But you have to admit, that not being able to move 1 meter when suddenly a leaf is in front of your sight isn't realistic at much though.

Or did I misunterstand your post?

You completely misunderstood my post. I said the exact opposite of what you think I said.

[sparks50 0]

Q: awesome, thats exactly how i wished it

[Average Joe 0]

Apart from the holding animation...thats bang on Q

[Quenaelin 0]

Quote[/b] ]Changing to sidearm doesn't take long time in this game, it only feels like it when you are under fire.

It "feels like it" when you're under fire because:

1) You cannot move while 'changing to sidearm'- you can't dodge, duck, run, or anything.

2) The animation is slow and lazy, and oftentimes you will get some odd behavior where it will go through another animation first.

In short, it's not even remotely close to anything that can be construed as realism. The sad thing is that we have people trying to justify this behavior as if it isn't an obvious game limitation/bug/oversight.

Quote[/b] ]But you have to admit, that not being able to move 1 meter when suddenly a leaf is in front of your sight isn't realistic at much though.

Or did I misunterstand your post?

You completely misunderstood my post. I said the exact opposite of what you think I said.

Yes I know, but if you include all these changes this game is becoming another FPS without tactical aspect. Now you are forced to take cover before you change to sidearm. Also with binoculars you are forced to search good observation spot before you use them. I don't like A.C.E's binoculars because they are too easy to use, its like designed eagle eye for close combat use, where you quickly look around corner and change back to your weapon right after spotting enemy. You should not use binoculars like that in first place.

[.kju 3244]

Quote[/b] ]I don't like A.C.E's binoculars because they are too easy to use, its like designed eagle eye for close combat use, where you quickly look around corner and change back to your weapon right after spotting enemy.

So you already played it? Cool stuff buddy

[Maddmatt 1]

Yes I know, but if you include all these changes this game is becoming another FPS without tactical aspect. Now you are forced to take cover before you change to sidearm. Also with binoculars you are forced to search good observation spot before you use them.

Animation problems are not realism, being stuck in one place to do something does not make the game more realistic.

Being able to move while holding binoculars makes them too easy to use?

Adding 'tactics' where there are none in reality, like having to choose an exact spot before taking out binoculars, does not add to the fun or realism. And is usually pretty stupid in a game that is suppose to be realistic.

Quote[/b] ]I don't like A.C.E's binoculars because they are too easy to use, its like designed eagle eye for close combat use, where you quickly look around corner and change back to your weapon right after spotting enemy. You should not use binoculars like that in first place.

Wow, you seem to have more experience than me with the ACE binoculars, and I haven't seen you on the ACE team

Geez, it's not even finished.

How people use binoculars is up to them, if they don't want to use them the way you think they should then that is up to them.

Using binoculars to "quickly look around corner and change back to your weapon right after spotting enemy" has no relevance to the ACE binoculars. All it does is allow you do move around with them. You still need to take them out and put them away.

Someone could do that in real life too, and it wouldn't be much dumber than doing it in a game.

[dslyecxi 23]

Yes I know, but if you include all these changes this game is becoming another FPS without tactical aspect. Now you are forced to take cover before you change to sidearm. Also with binoculars you are forced to search good observation spot before you use them. I don't like A.C.E's binoculars because they are too easy to use, its like designed eagle eye for close combat use, where you quickly look around corner and change back to your weapon right after spotting enemy. You should not use binoculars like that in first place.

Sorry man, this is nonsense. There is nothing realistic about being forced to choose a position carefully to take out your binos because you cannot move with them out.

There is nothing realistic about being forced to take cover before drawing your pistol. Nothing at all. It's nonsense to argue otherwise - I have transitioned from rifle to pistol while on the move in live-fire real-steel weapon training a great number of times. It's a standard thing to practice. If your primary rifle goes down, you transition to your pistol and move to cover so that you can get your primary rifle back up and into the fight. You don't stop and casually draw your pistol, either - you move quickly off of the danger area and draw while moving.

Arguing otherwise is fine, as everyone is entitled to their opinion, but arguing it from the angle of realism is not accurate at all.

[frederf 0]

I have to disagree with Dslyecxi here. There is something realistic about the BIS binoculars in that they encourage deliberate use. Generally in real life binocular use must come with at least a few breaths of calm and forethought, not something you can do mid-jog, able to bring to your eyes in the time between shooting a rifle and the bullets landing 600m away.

Of course there are unfortunate, even ridiculous, aspects of the BIS binoculars. The person you so wholly rail against and crucify in your typical obtuse way knows this. He wants to temper people's tendency for quick-n'-easy with some real sense of clunk associated with binocular use. I know you can appreciate this.

I do have to say that bringing out your sidearm should happen in a fraction of the time required to execute a mag change. The sidearm is usually very useless on an actual battlefield and is made doubly so by fast-reloading ArmA weapons that never jam. The lack of a sling position for rifles contributes heavily to the slow access to auxiliary equipment.

That all is fine and good in arm chair general land but I must remind everyone we are community modders that have to work within engine limitations and unless anyone has a compromising picture of one or more of the development team, all useful conversation should be focused on how to produce better (not perfect) binoculars in our current development environment.

* Risk vs reward is a good mechanic to encourage players to use their binoculars in situations appropriate. Wear-n-tear such as dirty lenses, lesser zoom, complete breakage, and dropping binoculars on the ground are possible to model.

====================

* Immobility and inability to get the heck out of dodge, even during mid use must be changed for a reasonable modeling of binoculars.

* Considerations for AI use

* Animation issues

* External view aesthetics (what the binocular-carrying soldier looks like to friends/enemy) during prepared state and using state.

===================

The concept is binoculars that are put away have 0 chance of breakage and 0 impact on mobility. Binoculars in the ready to access position have notable impacts to breakage risk and mobility. Finally binoculars in the in-use position have the maximum impacts to breakage risk and mobility.

Night vision Goggles for instance have two distinct visualizations on the player. Both equipped and not-activated and activated. Such a scheme might be used to have the binoculars put-away and on-chest (ready to use).

Finally the animation for bringing to use might be a weapon that firing animates the binoculars to in-use position and firing again lowers.

I'm not quite sure about it, but I think some wisdom lies in that scheme.

[dslyecxi 23]

(various things)

You disagree with me and then agree with me later in your post. Interesting. You also then decide to speak for someone else, explain what they "meant" (which is not what they said), and throw in a few personal attacks along the way along with a nice dose of strawman and hyperbole.

Lovely. Excuse me if I bow out of this "discussion" at this point.

[leckig 0]

Dslyecxi - I am on your side, fully and to death with this issue.

[frederf 0]

Dslyecxi - I am on your side, fully and to death with this issue.

See? This is what's the matter with Dslyecxi. He has a camp of loyal followers that take anything he says as the word of God and never are his claims doubted nor his overblown criticisms of others exposed.

You want to talk Strawman? How about this quote:

Quote[/b] ]There is nothing realistic about being forced to choose a position carefully to take out your binos because you cannot move with them out.

The person who you are responding to did not assert that being immobile was realistic (only that choosing carefully when to use binocs was), those were your words you placed in his mouth. You do this all the time. Then once you set up your foil with a ridiculous claim, you proceed to knock him down and tear him to shreds unjustly.

I commonly agree with you because your views about ArmA and realism are similar to my own. That does not mean that I approve of your rabid snapping toward people who are trying to work with you in order to extend your own myth. I don't usually differ with your opinions, but I very often take issue with how you present them.

Being immobile during binocular use is bad but it does have positive benefits in terms of encouraging tactical thinking and reducing arcade-like gameplay. These effects should be preserved and considered carefully when changing other aspects about the Binocular system.

[leckig 0]

Dslyecxi - I am on your side, fully and to death with this issue.

See? This is what's the matter with Dslyecxi. He has a camp of loyal followers that take anything he says as the word of God and never are his claims doubted nor his overblown criticisms of others exposed.

not at all - he is just being rational, that is.

I like rational people.

[dslyecxi 23]

See? This is what's the matter with Dslyecxi. He has a camp of loyal followers that take anything he says as the word of God and never are his claims doubted nor his overblown criticisms of others exposed

Congrats, Frederf, you've figured it all out. Now, if you would like to take this to PMs, feel free - otherwise I really don't see how you bitching about me is relevant to the topic at hand. I also don't have the time or inclination to argue about it with you.

I stated several points that are pretty much indisputable. I'm not going to argue about your reinterpretations of them or restate what I've already gone through. You can take it how you will. You can continue with the personal attacks if you think that will accomplish something, but I'm past the point of spending time dealing with such people in a public forum.

[ArmaVidz 0]

Q, the binoculars look great at first glance in that video.

I think what is really needed here is a lack of dialogue. Seriously, break it down, point form, without "tactical" thinking, personal thoughts or "feelings" on the subject. Forget the ifs, why's and buts...

FACT:Real Life Usage of Binoculars

•Are normally stored away? Not sure on this one.

•Person can move in any direction, at any time while binoculars are out. Possible with binoculars to eyes, but very clumsy due to not being able to see the immediate environment e.g: rocks, obstacles etc. or as in this case, my coffee table, the wall, piano etc.

•Person can have a rifle/sidearm in one hand while binoculars are out.

•Binoculars could be slung around kneck.(depending on model?)

•Person can throw binoculars down if necessary.

•Person can move(standing) while looking through binoculars and still maintain a reasonable image through binoculars. Enough to ID a target at about 200 yards.

•Person can crouch and move with binoculars while maintaining a "poor" image, but reserving "movement" recognition of the target area i.e: if something moves you can most likely see it. Image seen is very shaky, movement  is very slow to maintain even a poor image such as this.

FACT:ARMA Usage of Binoculars

•Binoculars are stored away.

•Unit cannot move in any direction except for swivelling the entire body.

•Unit cannot carry any other weapons in either hand.

•Unit cannot throw binoculars down in emergency.

•Unit can move from crouching to standing with binoculars.

•Quality of the image while a unit is moving is not factored as you cannot move with binoculars in ARMA.

Now just base your wants and needs off a list something like that.

I could write a few paragraphs to justify all the real-life abilities, but if someone couldn't see the need to implement as many real-life likenesses, there's really no point in wasting more keystrokes.