Are Hellfires etc really this innaccurate?

[TheReddog 0]

Well are they?

I have been flying the attack choppers a lot lately and it's funny. While everywhere on the internet hellfires and their equivalents are listed as being capbale of taking out a vehicle at 1000's of meters in the game it seems to be completely random whether you hit or miss.

Example, I can load the editor and place a bunch of Abrams in the middle of a desert plain and a Ka-50 5Km away. I spawn in the Ka-50 and fly over, I acquire a proper lock and bam my first two missiles will hit home and I'll knock 2 Abrams out, on my next run even at short range my missiles will wildly fly off, above, below or either side of my target.

It's like you score a few kills and then suddenly you can't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside. It happens to me with both the attack helos in the default game and all the addon ones (eg. RHS Hind etc).

Is this a bug or what?

[klamacz 448]

its happening when you have moving target and/or too small distance to target. You need to aim your chopper close on target also. Its happening because Hellfires, AT5 and so cant just turn around in place.

[Maddmatt 1]

Hellfires in ArmA rarely miss. If you can't score a hit with those then there is no hope for you

The missiles in the KA-50 are Vickr (or something like that). They are a bit messed up in ArmA. Just aim about 10 degrees above the target and you will almost always score a hit.

[subs17 9]

IRL Hellfires rarely ever miss.

[Daniel 0]

I also found I couldnt hit much with the RHS Hind, but I gather that isn't a final release. Make sure you arn't strafing too close for your missiles to have chance to curve into a target. Havn't had any issues with the hellfires.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Those Kamov-Vikhr's are special ArmA variant. Maybe BIS doesn't want to much beef from US "addicted" players

IRL:

Quote[/b] ]The laserbeam-riding Vikhr missile is stated as having a target hit probability close to one, against a tank at a range of up to 8km, and the capability of penetrating all types of armour, including active armour up to 900mm thick.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Those Kamov-Vikhr's are special ArmA variant. Maybe BIS doesn't want to much beef from US "addicted" players

IRL:

Quote[/b] ]The laserbeam-riding Vikhr missile is stated as having a target hit probability close to one, against a tank at a range of up to 8km, and the capability of penetrating all types of armour, including active armour up to 900mm thick.

Fired under what conditions/direction/speed/etc?

[max power 21]

I think that the missiles in ArmA are much easier to use, especially at a gallop, than they are IRL.

[cozza 24]

Well are they?

I have been flying the attack choppers a lot lately and it's funny. While everywhere on the internet hellfires and their equivalents are listed as being capbale of taking out a vehicle at 1000's of meters in the game it seems to be completely random whether you hit or miss.

Example, I can load the editor and place a bunch of Abrams in the middle of a desert plain and a Ka-50 5Km away. I spawn in the Ka-50 and fly over, I acquire a proper lock and bam my first two missiles will hit home and I'll knock 2 Abrams out, on my next run even at short range my missiles will wildly fly off, above, below or either side of my target.

It's like you score a few kills and then suddenly you can't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside. It happens to me with both the attack helos in the default game and all the addon ones (eg. RHS Hind etc).

Is this a bug or what?

from reading that it seems ya flying over them and firing. I find the best way is to hover just outside there range. They cant see you but your rader will see them, and lock on with the hellfires and FIRE AWAY!!!! I do that all the time and can destroy a platoon on abrams

[LtCmdrBoon 0]

the KA50 lock-on missiles are crap imho (i dunno if this reflects real life or not)

however, the hellfires are brilliant.

as mentioned above, here is a couple of additional times that they will not deystroy a tank in 1:-

Armour is moving around in a town (ie a building may block the missile at some final stage)

Multi player lag - sometimes a tank may warp a few meters (especially when someone connects with a stack of custom sounds) although i only found this to be a problem on those servers that allow customs. Obviously the missile is firing at something that is acutally somewhere else, and it warps at the lsat second.

Also if u have 8 targets and 8 missiles, if you fire-tab-fire-tab-fire etc sometimes it will lock onto a target you already have a missle going towards, so 2 or more missiles hit the same tank

[subs17 9]

IRL the Vihkrs follow a spiral path to the target as they have just one control surface. They also can be used against aircraft.

[max power 21]

IRL the Vihkrs follow a spiral path to the target as they have just one control surface. They also can be used against aircraft.

They have a high hit rate though. If you nose up about ten degrees before you launch a vikhr in ArmA, it won't spiral and will hit every time.

edit: to add to my previous comment, real missiles are harder to use properly.. ie. if you're using them out of their envelope, you're likely to miss. The same thing goes for ArmA's missiles. If you're trying to get them to make 180 degree turns and such, you're likely not going to get much out of them. You'll notice in most guncam footage, helicopters launch missiles from what looks to be nearly stationary. This isn't necessary in ArmA, but the more still you are and the more carefully lined up the target is to where the missile is initially pointing, the more likely you are to hit.

[TheReddog 0]

Guys I am talking moderate speed shooting from above the minimum range while directly approaching targets, I'll have to make a video, it just seems really, really wrong.

[Rommel 2]

Those Kamov-Vikhr's are special ArmA variant. Maybe BIS doesn't want to much beef from US "addicted" players

IRL:

Quote[/b] ]The laserbeam-riding Vikhr missile is stated as having a target hit probability close to one, against a tank at a range of up to 8km, and the capability of penetrating all types of armour, including active armour up to 900mm thick.

Fired under what conditions/direction/speed/etc?

oh be quiet lol, stop stirring people up haha.

Just got to remember that a lot of people (including my self) TAB spam and just fire when a lock pops up, then complain if it misses, its always best to know the terrain around the area and account for possbility of a moving target, if it moves quick enough and smartly enough, it can out maneuvre the missile given the right situation.

[subs17 9]

IRL the Vihkrs follow a spiral path to the target as they have just one control surface. They also can be used against aircraft.

They have a high hit rate though.  If you nose up about ten degrees before you launch a vikhr in ArmA, it won't spiral and will hit every time.

edit: to add to my previous comment, real missiles are harder to use properly.. ie. if you're using them out of their envelope, you're likely to miss.  The same thing goes for ArmA's missiles.  If you're trying to get them to make 180 degree turns and such, you're likely not going to get much out of them.  You'll notice in most guncam footage, helicopters launch missiles from what looks to be nearly stationary.  This isn't necessary in ArmA, but the more still you are and the more carefully lined up the target is to where the missile is initially pointing, the more likely you are to hit.

Thats because the spiral effect is not yet modeled the distance to target will effect accuracy as it will take a while for the missile to straighten its path enough for a good hit. An observation from FC is sometimes they don't hit due to the spiral effect. IMO the missiles aren't really modeled that well the whole lock and launch process is quite arcady there really should be a proper sight/laser and lock system to allow more accurate launches of the missiles.

Heres an apache sim showing some more detailed avionics.

http://www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/EECH/arnehs_apache/clip05.wmv

http://www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/EECH/arnehs_apache/clip04.wmv

http://www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/EECH/arnehs_apache/clip05.wmv

And theres more info/videos here

http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_313c.html

Heres video of the SU25T in FC using vhkrs.

And real vhikr launches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z03y04imhQg&feature=related

[max power 21]

Thats because the spiral effect is not yet modeled the distance to target will effect accuracy as it will take a while for the missile to straighten its path enough for a good hit. An observation from FC is sometimes they don't hit due to the spiral effect. IMO the missiles aren't really modeled that well the whole lock and launch process is quite arcady there really should be a proper sight/laser and lock system to allow more accurate launches of the missiles.

Heres an apache sim showing some more detailed avionics.

http://www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/EECH/arnehs_apache/clip05.wmv

http://www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/EECH/arnehs_apache/clip04.wmv

http://www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/EECH/arnehs_apache/clip05.wmv

And theres more info/videos here

http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_313c.html

Heres video of the SU25T in FC using vhkrs.

And real vhikr launches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z03y04imhQg&feature=related

I think it's because they have a terminal homing phase in real life. What is FC?

[Inkompetent 0]

FC = Lock On: Flaming Cliffs

[subs17 9]

I think it's because they have a terminal homing phase in real life.  What is FC?

Vhikrs are laser guided and require the tgt to be painted throughout the flight of the missile. Another thing is the SU25T had a limit of 90secs with the laser before it had to be coolled down. I'm not sure if the Ka50 or other helos have the same limitation.

[max power 21]

I think it's because they have a terminal homing phase in real life. What is FC?

Vhikrs are laser guided and require the tgt to be painted throughout the flight of the missile. Another thing is the SU25T had a limit of 90secs with the laser before it had to be coolled down. I'm not sure if the Ka50 or other helos have the same limitation.

yeah, what I mean is I think the missiles have a different flight program for when they are close to the target.

[whisper 0]

I think it's because they have a terminal homing phase in real life. What is FC?

Vhikrs are laser guided and require the tgt to be painted throughout the flight of the missile. Another thing is the SU25T had a limit of 90secs with the laser before it had to be coolled down. I'm not sure if the Ka50 or other helos have the same limitation.

yeah, what I mean is I think the missiles have a different flight program for when they are close to the target.

What do you mean by "flight program"?

AFAIK the flight itself can't really be different because of the single control surface of the missile. It'll always be spiralling around the beam painting the target, trying to keep its rear detector into the laser beam.

But sure, the control surface inputs calculation may be different during the last stage of flight to avoid the missile oversteering to keep surfing the beam and thus missing the target in too large spirals in the end.

[wipman 1]

Hi, the AGM-114's aka Hellfire aren't really this inaccurate; they're

very accurate and have a decent range of fire, but some times

they just don't explode because they get smashed againist the

tank/target surface and in some cases they're "repeled" by the

angle of atack that they've at the time of hit on target (aka HOT =

Hit On Target). I don't know how accurate the russian missiles are,

but with the latests generations of Hellfires they made 'em to atack

from upside increasing the oportunities of neutralize completly the

target and reducing to almost zero the posibilty of that they get

deflected by the angle and resistence of the surface where they're

hitting. The ArmA's helicopters "guided" missiles are a joke. Let's C ya

[frederf 0]

I think it's because they have a terminal homing phase in real life. What is FC?

Vhikrs are laser guided and require the tgt to be painted throughout the flight of the missile. Another thing is the SU25T had a limit of 90secs with the laser before it had to be coolled down. I'm not sure if the Ka50 or other helos have the same limitation.

yeah, what I mean is I think the missiles have a different flight program for when they are close to the target.

What do you mean by "flight program"?

AFAIK the flight itself can't really be different because of the single control surface of the missile. It'll always be spiralling around the beam painting the target, trying to keep its rear detector into the laser beam.

But sure, the control surface inputs calculation may be different during the last stage of flight to avoid the missile oversteering to keep surfing the beam and thus missing the target in too large spirals in the end.

Oh yeah it can. Even the laser beam hellfires have very complex flight plans with altitude sensors and such. I thought hellfires had a weapons release envelope of the platform, mostly not-too-fast.

My favorite ArmA hellfires were the ones I made myself using the Mapfact AH-64s. I made them lockable to laser targets and thus you had to use the co pilot's laser turret to make a target for yourself. It prevented a lot of tab spam, was just as effective, and made it so you had to lase it all the way in (like real life). Only the longbow type hellfires are fire and forget.

[subs17 9]

Yeah the AH64D uses the LOAL for hitting targets while hiding behind trees. It would be cool just to have it modeled upto LB2 level of avionics maybe the next version of Arma might support aircraft with that much detail.

[whisper 0]

Err, we weren't talking about Hellfires but beam-riding Vikhr (not simply "laser beam", but beam riding, see description below)

Totally different missiles.

Vikhr doesn't have LOBL/LOAL differentiation, doesn't have an active seeker in the nose locking on laser target, but a laser detector in the rear and it tries to stay inside a laser beam that the shooter emits toward the target, and finally, unlike Hellfire, it only has 1 mobile control surface.

So I was wondering how you could change your flight "program" with only 1 control surface.

Ofc hellfire can (and will, mainly in LOAL mode) change its flight pattern.

[max power 21]

Err, we weren't talking about Hellfires but beam-riding Vikhr (not simply "laser beam", but beam riding, see description below)

Totally different missiles.

Vikhr doesn't have LOBL/LOAL differentiation, doesn't have an active seeker in the nose locking on laser target, but a laser detector in the rear and it tries to stay inside a laser beam that the shooter emits toward the target, and finally, unlike Hellfire, it only has 1 mobile control surface.

So I was wondering how you could change your flight "program" with only 1 control surface.

Ofc hellfire can (and will, mainly in LOAL mode) change its flight pattern.

The aircraft's fire control system transmits data to the missile through the laser beam throughout the course of its flight.