Arma guns just don't feel right.....?

[the_bengine 0]

I've just sat down when i had a break in work to play through the ramadi conflict campaign for the first time since i purchased Queens Gambit when it first came out.

One thing that has struck me when playing through the mission on the new island was how long i had to wait (half a second or so) for people i'd shot to start their "dying" animation. It generally happens if they're running. What happened to the great "running dive" animation from ofp?

It's only really noticable in urban gun fights when you're up close and your enemies are generally stood up. You fire a few shots into them then wait to see what happens next. If you're lucky, they'll eventually topple over and die. I've never shot anyone before, but i presume when i bullet hits someone at close range (or any range! the shock is pretty much instantaneous.

I've had one ongoing problem with Arma and that's that you never really feel like you're firing a real weapon. I realise all i'm actually doing is pressing a mouse button to trigger a sequence of onscreen events, but other games seem to manage the effect alright, Op Flashpoint being one of them, especially with mods like FFUR_SLX.

I tried a search for similar topics but couldn't find one....

i guess i've posted just to see if other people agree, and if there are enough of us, if there's any likelyhood of this being addressed with a mod. .....maybe there's a mod already...?

[Noraf 0]

well, unfortanly, the 5,56mm, as used in the m4\16 and a ton of other nato weponds, have a bit of overpenetrating power, witch means it's tends to go trough the body, and you might need several shots to take one down.

[MehMan 0]

well, unfortanly, the 5,56mm, as used in the m4\16 and a ton of other nato weponds, have a bit of overpenetrating power,    witch means it's tends to go trough the body,  and you might need several shots to take one down.

I have doubts that this is implemented in ArmA. Big doubts.

As for the recoil problem, I found this to be a very good solution.

[max power 21]

Bullets cause damage to the body by crushing tissue on their way through. What they call a bullet's 'permanent cavity' will result in less than 1% destruction of total body mass. Since you have so little to work with, shot placement is important. One of the only ways to get an instantaneous incapacitation or death from shooting is to shoot their CNS. All this stuff you hear about hydrostatic shot and other magical bullet effects is all hooey.

What you're experiencing with ArmA, though, is quite different. Sometimes animations have to complete before you go into the next one...

That said, it sounds like what you're experiencing all around is slow framerate. Consider lowering some of your display properties and see if your play experience improves.

[the_bengine 0]

just downloading that recoil mod. looks promising....

hi plaintiff.

framerates are fine, its up at about 30fps accoring to fraps most the time. It does appear to be a case of ai completing animation routines.

[volkov956 0]

here is an example i experienced once in arma

Shot a guy as he was taking a pistol out in the head then waited. He took the gun out put it away then pulled out his gun after he completed that he died

[the_bengine 0]

yeah, i've heard that can happen in real life.

something to do with hydrostatic shots.....

[frederf 0]

Heh, another "blindly defending engine limitations as if they were some hyperrealistic feature."

The game's animation engine either can't transition between animations or it requires so much work on the devs part that they didn't bother. It's OFP 1.5, yeah the ruskies still finish putting the RPG on their back before kealing over. Engine limitation.

[The_Captain 0]

That recoil mod really fixed the gun feel for me. Can't play without it.

Also, I haven't really noticed the waiting-for-other-anim-t-play-before-death problem since it was greatly minimized in a patch. Now they quickly transition to the death anim instead of waiting for the other anims to play first.

[frostwyrm333 1]

arma 2 will have animation blending, now its mostly one animation after another animation and so on.

[Drozdov 0]

I haven't really noticed this in ArmA, but it sounds like the kind of animation sequence problems as were present in OFP. They were most noticable for me when shooting an officer who was using binoculars - their face would go red and bloody, then they'd put their binoculars into their pockets, return to normal position, then flump down.

[max power 21]

well, unfortanly, the 5,56mm, as used in the m4\16 and a ton of other nato weponds, have a bit of overpenetrating power,    witch means it's tends to go trough the body,  and you might need several shots to take one down.

At close range, actually, the 5.56 nato rounds tend to fragment, transferring energy to the target rather quickly over a large surface area.. they don't tend to overpenetrate, but rather blow up and cause lots of hiddeous damage.. like a cavity the size of a small apple inside.

edit:

The death interpolation animations were supposedly addressed in the latest hotfix.  This shouldn't be a problem for you since 1.08 is bundled with QG?  Check it out, it might be worth a try.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

Anims.pbo

Fixed Reload collision capsules

Player can sit with pistol

Fixed interpolations to dead in all transition animations

Increased death bounding spheres to 1.5

More information and download locations here:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Patch_v.1.08#Readme

For the hotfix which can also patch QG up to 1.08+, try this:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=66522

[Second 0]

well, unfortanly, the 5,56mm, as used in the m4\16 and a ton of other nato weponds, have a bit of overpenetrating power, witch means it's tends to go trough the body, and you might need several shots to take one down.

At close range, actually, the 5.56 nato rounds tend to fragment, transferring energy to the target rather quickly over a large surface area.. they don't tend to overpenetrate, but rather blow up and cause lots of hiddeous damage.. like a cavity the size of a small apple inside.

Yes, when talking about standart round. It's AP round which tends to go cleanily thru.

[-Puma- 2]

one thing that bothers me is that no matter how many bullets u put in a guy he allways crabs his chest, rolls and stumbles into the ground. about a time we get some new death animation

[the_bengine 0]

yeah, that's what i mean. it'd be great to see guys being instantly forced back with shock from being hit. If you hit a guy when he's prone, he just lightly lowers his head. I think FFUR SLX had quite a nice touch whereby a prone soldier would kind of recoil in the last moments of pain, tho it got a bit samey.

and, like i said, i never seem to see the "running and dying" animation anymore, tho i'm sure it's there...

[max power 21]

well, unfortanly, the 5,56mm, as used in the m4\16 and a ton of other nato weponds, have a bit of overpenetrating power, witch means it's tends to go trough the body, and you might need several shots to take one down.

At close range, actually, the 5.56 nato rounds tend to fragment, transferring energy to the target rather quickly over a large surface area.. they don't tend to overpenetrate, but rather blow up and cause lots of hiddeous damage.. like a cavity the size of a small apple inside.

Yes, when talking about standart round. It's AP round which tends to go cleanily thru.

I've never seen the test information on that- only the standard rounds noraf was talking about. I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.

[Second 0]

Yes. Noraf most likely did mean standart rounds.

But what Noraf said comes from Black hawk down... Atleast it is very common to argue that 5.56 is overpenetrating and draw example from Mogadishu. And counterargue is to say that they used AP rounds (mostlikely to gain better penetration thru walls in which 5.56 standart is bad)

What you say about standart rounds is true. I just felt unnecessary urge to add the difference between standart and AP rounds.

[DVD 0]

I just like to say i want the recoil back of OFP.

I made a short Youtube movie about it time ago, for all who never played OFP.

*click the pic*

[Noraf 0]

actualy, i got it from another sorce :

Quote[/b] ]Maj. Anthony F. Milavic, USMC (Ret.) :

Here is one of MANY reports of the failure of this round.

The Last “Big Lie†of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

August 24th, 2004

At a Vietnam Special Forces base during 1964, I watched a U. S. soldier fire 15 rounds of .223 caliber ammunition into a tethered goat from an AR-15 rifle; moments after the last round hit, the goat fell over. Looking at the dead goat, I saw many little bullet entry-holes on one side; and when we turned him over, I saw many little bullet exit-holes on the other side. Over time, those observations were confirmed and reconfirmed, revealing that the stories we were told on the lethality of the .223 caliber cartridge were fabrications. Those false reports drove the adoption of the .223 caliber cartridge as the 5.56mm NATO cartridge and, ever since, Americans have been sent to war with a cartridge deficient in combat lethality; a deficiency that has recently caused the deaths of U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

What is efficient combat lethality? The book Black Hawk Down quotes SFC Paul Howe’s description of SFC Randy Shughart, a soldier who elected to carry the 7.62mm M-14 into the urban battlefield of Somalia in 1993 rather than the 5.56mm CAR-15 (M-16-variant):

“His rifle may have been heavier and comparatively awkward and delivered a mean recoil, but it damn sure knocked a man down with one bullet, and in combat, one shot was all you got. You shoot a guy, you want to see him go down; you don't want to be guessing for the next five hours whether you hit him, or whether he's still waiting for you in the weeds.†[1]

With the wisdom of a combat veteran, Howe describes the lethality necessary for a cartridge in combat—one-round knockdown power.

How did we get from military cartridges with proven one-round knockdown power such as the 30-06 and 7.62mm to the 5.56mm? The journey starts with the term “tumbling.†This term has been associated with the .223 cal./5.56mm cartridge, since early in its marketing as a potential military cartridge to this day. The very word, tumbling, prompts images of a bullet traveling end over end through the human body in 360-degree loops: in reality, it does not move this way at all.

Dr. Martin L. Fackler, COL., USA (Ret.) served as a surgeon in Vietnam during 1968 and, subsequently, pursued the research of terminal ballistics by observing the effects of bullets fired into blocks of ballistic gelatin. In “Wounding patterns for military rifle bullets,†he reports the observation that “all†non-deforming pointed bullets—this included the 30-06 and 7.62mm military full-metal jacket bullets-- “yawed†180 degrees while passing through the gelatin to exit base-forward; i.e., heaviest end forward. The 5.56mm projectile acted in the same manner with a very precise exception: These rounds “yawed†to 90-degrees, and then fragmented at their weakened serrated band (cannelure) into two or more pieces when fired into ballistic gelatin. However, the 5.56mm projectile does NOT always yaw or fragment. Under field conditions, the probability of these effects is reduced by the following factors:

--The round strikes the target at less than 2700 feet per second. That velocity is reduced by: the farther the range to the target, the greater reduction in velocity; shortened weapon barrel length as is the case with the shorter M-4 carbine; and/or, manufacturing variances in the cartridge.

--Variances in human body thickness and flesh density and consistency.

In those cases, the bullet neither yaws nor fragments and causes only a pencil size hole through the body; i.e., small hole in, small hole out. Neither Dr. Fackler nor anyone else has provided any empirical data or estimate on the incidence of the 5.56mm yaw/fragmentation effect on enemy soldiers. Conversely, since first used by Americans in combat, there has been a consistent observation from the field—enemy soldiers continue to fire their weapons after being hit by multiple 5.56mm bullets; evidently, no yaw/fragmentation effect. Nevertheless, the term “tumble†was apparently derived from idealized yaw action and, as suggested by the following, was chosen in lieu of the word yaw because it would “sell†better. [2]

The book, The Black Rifle, M16 Retrospective by Edward C. Ezell and R. Blake Stevens, “ . . . is, so far as [the authors] could make it so, the truth about the controversial 5.56mm caliber AR-15 (M16)—what it is, what it is not, where it came from, and why.â€

Edward C. Ezell, Ph.D., now deceased, was the Curator/Supervisor of the Division of Armed Forces History, National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC and the editor of perhaps the world’s most famous gun book, Small Arms of the World. The Black Rifle contains one of the earliest characterizations that the .223 cal. bullet tumbled in a brochure produced by Colt’s Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company, Inc. The caption written by the book’s authors reads, “From the first Colt AR-15 brochure, produced in a desperate attempt to interest somebody – anybody - in the merits of the AR-15’s ‘unmatched superiority.’†In one of the three internal brochure illustrations is text reading, in part, “On impact the tumbling action of the .223 caliber ammunition increases effectiveness.†[3]

In 1961, Colt’s did get somebody’s attention. The Advanced Research Project Agency (ARPA) of the Department of Defense (DoD) was enjoined by the Kennedy Administration to explore how the United States could support a foreign ally in a “limited†war. In the spring of 1961, ARPA’s Project AGILE was implemented to supply “research and engineering support for the military and paramilitary forces engaged in or threatened by conflict in remote areas of the world.†In October of 1961, ARPA provided ten Colt’s AR-15’s to Vietnamese Forces in Saigon to conduct a limited test. The Black Rifle remarks of this test, “The number of rifles might have been small, but the enthusiastic reaction of the Vietnamese and their American advisors alike who handled and fired the AR-15s was just as [Colt’s marketing agent] had predicted.†Armed with these positive results, ARPA succeeded in expanding the Project AGILE study by procuring 1,000 AR-15s for distribution among select Vietnamese units for field-testing. Ezell & Stevens write that this approval resulted in “ . . . saving Colt’s from almost sure financial disaster and also setting the stage for the most influential yet controversial document so far in the history of the already controversial AR-15.†[4]

The purpose of this test, as set forth in, ARPA, “Report of Task 13A, Test of ArmaLite Rifle, AR-15,†dated 31 July 1962, was “ . . . a comparison between the AR-15 and the M2 Carbine to determine which is a more suitable replacement for shoulder weapons in selected units of the Republic of Vietnam Armed Forces (RVNAF).†The Project AGILE results were summed up, in part, by ARPA as follows: “The suitability of the AR-15 as the basic shoulder weapon for the Vietnamese has been established. For the type of conflict now occurring in Vietnam, the weapon was also found by its users and by MAAG advisors to be superior in virtually all respects to the M1 Rifle, M1 and M2 Carbines, Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, and Browning Automatic Rifle.†NOTE: This study and its recommendations concerned the suitability of the AR-15 for Vietnamese soldiers, who were described by the testers to be of “small stature, body configuration and light weight,†NOT larger stature United States soldiers. [5]

In any case, the report was widely read and some of its components came under serious question, especially those purporting to describe the demonstrated lethality of the .223 caliber cartridge. The following are three such examples from the Project AGILE report:

Example 1. “On 160900 June, one platoon from the 340 Ranger company was on a ground operation . . . and contacted 3 armed VC in heavily forested jungle.. . . At a distance of approximately 15 meters, one Ranger fired an AR-15 full automatic hitting one VC with 3 rounds with the first burst. One round in the head took it completely off. Another in the right arm, took it completely off. One round hit him in the right side, causing a hole about 5 inches in diameter.. . . (Rangers)â€

Example 2. “On 9 June a Ranger Platoon from the 40th Infantry Regt. Was given the mission of ambushing an estimated VC Company.. . .

Number of VC killed: 5 [Descriptions of the one-round killing wounds follow.]

Back wound, which caused the thoracic cavity to explode.

Stomach wound, which caused the abdominal cavity to explode.

Buttock wound, which destroyed all tissue of both buttocks.

Chest wound from right to left; destroyed the thoracic cavity.

Heel wound; the projectile entered the bottom of the right foot causing the leg to split from the foot to the hip.

These deaths were inflicted by the AR-15 and all were instantaneous except the buttock wound. He lived approximately five minutes. (7th Infantry Division)â€

Example 3. “On 13 April, a Special Forces team made a raid on a small village. In the raid, seven VC were killed. Two were killed by AR-15 fire. Range was 50 meters. One man was hit in the head; it looked like it exploded. A second man was hit in the chest, his back was one big hole. (VN Special Forces)†[6.]

The above “field-reports†are incredulous on their face and some in DoD requested that these results be duplicated scientifically. The Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory at Edgewood Arsenal attempted to do just that. Using .223 caliber Remington ammunition provided by Colt’s representative, they conducted their “standard lethality trials that consisted of measuring the cavitational and other effects of firing at known distances into blocks of ballistic gelatin, and where necessary, anaesthetized goats.†They failed to duplicate the explosive effects reported by Project AGILE. In November 1962, the Army initiated “Worldwide†tactical and technical tests of the AR-15 using U. S. soldiers. Edgewood was tasked to perform further lethality tests using modified .223 caliber ammunition. Ezell and Stevens describe the modifications: “They had modified some 55-grain .223 caliber ball bullets of Remington manufacture by cutting approximately 1/4 inch off the nose and drilling a 3/32-inch-diameter hole about 1/4 inch deep into the lead core of each bullet.†The results? The authors continue, “As it turned out, even the hollow-points failed to duplicate anything like the spectacular effects recorded by the Vietnamese unit commanders and their American advisors, which had subsequently been taken as fact and much used as propaganda.†[7.]

The .223 caliber cartridge was morphed into the 5.56mm NATO cartridge and adopted for the United States Service Rifle M-16 (formerly, AR-15) replacing the 7.62mm M-14. How could such propaganda have convinced the Department of Defense to adopt the .223 caliber cartridge? “All this was inspired by the principle -- which is quite true in itself -- that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper stata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily, and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.â€

Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf [8.]

As is usually the case, a judgment based on lies was to adversely affect those at the “pointy end of the spear.†American warriors reported enemy soldiers continuing to close and fire their weapons after sustaining multiple hits by 5.56mm bullets. This happened as early as 9 December 1965 in the official “After Action Report of the Ia Drang Valley Operation . . ..†popularized by the movie and book We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young. The commanding officer of the battalion engaged there, Col. Harold G. Moore, USA, writes of assaulting enemy soldiers being hit by 5.56mm rounds: "Even after being hit several times in the chest, many continued firing and moving for several more steps before dropping dead." [9.]

Later in that war, a similar experience is voiced by Col. John Hayworth, USA (Ret.): “In one fire-fight, I saw my RTO place three rounds [of 5.56 mm] in the chest of a charging NVA regular at 50 yards. He kept firing his AK and never slowed down. At 30 yards, I hit him with a blast of double ought buck. It picked him up off his feet and he didn't get up again.†[10.]

In the aftermath of the Vietnam War, the DoD increased the weight of the 5.56mm 55-grain bullet (M193) to 62-grains, replaced some of its lead core with a tungsten steel core, painted the bullet tip green and designated the new cartridge M855. In 1991, the Pentagon sent its warriors to the Gulf War with this new green-tip cartridge. Maj. Howard Feldmeier, USMC (Ret.) was there: “ . . . several Marines commented that they had to shoot Iraqi soldiers 2-3 or more times with the 62-grain 5.56mm green tip ammo before they stopped firing back at them . . ..†That report is exemplified by one of an Iraqi officer who was thrown from his vehicle and set afire by an explosion: “Somehow he managed to hold on to his AK-47. He also got up, still on fire, faced the firing line of Marines and charged forward firing his weapon from the hip. He didn't hit anyone but two Marines each nailed him with a three round burst from their M-16A2s. One burst hit him immediately above his heart, the other in his belly button. [He] . . . kept right on charging and firing until his magazine was empty. When he got up to the Marines two of them tackled him and rolled him in the sand to put out the fire. . . . He was quickly carried back to the battalion aid station . . .. The surgeons told me he certainly died of burns, but not necessarily from the six 5.56mm wounds . . ..†[11.]

In spite of the above “lesson learned,†the DoD dispatched its warriors to combat in Somalia in 1993 with the same flawed “green tip†cartridge as testified in Mark Bowden’s book Black Hawk Down: “His weapon was the most sophisticated infantry rifle in the world, a customized CAR-15, and he was shooting the army's new 5.56mm green tip round. . . . The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks. Howe felt he had to hit a guy five or six times just to get his attention.â€

The Pentagon remained unmoved by that experience of its warriors and continued to send them to war underpowered. On 4 April 2002, I received an e-mail from a trooper in Afghanistan who appeals, in part: “The current-issue 62gr 5.56mm (223) round, especially when fired from the short-barreled, M-4 carbine, is proving itself (once again) to be woefully inadequate as [a] man stopper. Engagements at all ranges are requiring multiple, solid hits to permanently bring down enemy soldiers. Penetration is also sadly deficient. Even light barriers are not perforated by this rifle/cartridge combination.†[12.]

Additional observations of the impotence of the 5.56mm round soon appeared in official and professional publications. In their official briefing “Lessons Learned in Afghanistan†dated April 2002, LTC C. Dean, USA and SFC S. Newland, USA of the U. S. Army Natick Soldier Center reported: “Soldiers asked for a weapon with a larger round. ‘So it will drop a man with one shot.’†In the October 2002 issue of the Marine Corps Gazette magazine, Capt Philip Treglia, USMC reflected on his Afghanistan experience in December 2001 by reporting that, “the 5.56 mm round will not put a man to the ground with two shots to the chest.†Capt Treglia’s men were trained to fire two bullets into an enemy’s chest and if that did not knock him down, they were to shift fire to the head. This is the corrective action implemented for these Marines and many others in the Armed Forces for the impotent 5.56mm cartridge rather than equipping them with a rifle that fired a bullet with one-round knockdown power. And, as Capt Treglia reported, multiple hits with the 5.56mm bullet didn’t work any better in Afghanistan than it did anytime in the past.

In a 3 March 2003 written briefing, LCdr. Gary K. Roberts, USNR recommended to RAdm. Albert M. Calland, Commander, Naval Special Warfare (NSW) Command that he upgrades his command’s 5.56mm weapons to the 6.8mm cartridge. That briefing, entitled, “Enhancement of NSW Carbine & Rifle Capability,†opens by observing:

Recent combat operations have highlighted terminal performance problems, generally manifested as failures to rapidly incapacitate opponents, during combat operations when M855 62gr. “Green Tip†FMJ is fired from 5.56mm rifles and carbines. Failure to rapidly incapacitate armed opponents increases the risk of U.S. forces being injured or killed and jeopardizes mission success. [13.]

That statement was prophetic.

On 12 September 2003, in Ar Ramadi, Iraq elements of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group engaged enemy forces in a firefight. An insurgent was struck in the torso by several rounds of 5.56mm ammunition from their M-4 carbines (this is the current shortened version of the M-16 Service Rifle). He continued to fire his AK-47 and mortally wounded MSgt Kevin N. Morehead, age 33, from Little Rock, Arkansas. The engagement continued with the same insurgent surprising SFC William M. Bennett, age 35, from Seymour, Tennessee from a hiding place and killing him instantly with a three-round burst to the head and neck. SSgt Robert E Springer, threw away his M-4 carbine, drew an obsolete WWI/WWII vintage .45 caliber pistol and killed the insurgent with one shot. A close inspection of the enemy's corpse revealed that he had been hit by seven 5.56 mm rounds in his torso. Also, in this engagement, these soldiers were provided with a commercially produced 5.56mm round of 77-grain weight vice the 62-grain bullets in use by general-purpose forces. Obviously, the larger 5.56mm round was of little consequence. [14.]

These reports are consistent with my own experience during three tours of duty in Vietnam from the goat incident in 1964 described above to service with the 3rd Marine Division in 1968-69; experience that repeatedly reminded me that this 5.56mm cartridge was nothing more than the full-metal jacket military version of the commercial .223 caliber Remington cartridge. The .223 caliber Remington was and is today commercially advertised and sold as a “varmint cartridge†for hunting groundhogs, prairie dogs and woodchucks. The cartridge is offered with soft point, hollow point, fragmentation, or projectiles incorporating two or more of these attributes to enhance its lethality and assure a “clean killâ€: one-round knockdown power on varmints. States such as the Commonwealth of Virginia do not permit it to be used for hunting deer or bear because its lethality—with or without those enhancements--does not assure a “clean kill†on big game. [15] Yet, its full metal jacket military counterpart continues to be issued to American warriors in spite of almost 40 years of Lessons Learned that enemy soldiers continue to fire their weapons and have even killed our soldiers after sustaining multiple hits from 5.56mm bullets.

The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this “Big Lie†from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above--one-round knockdown power!

The author's 25-year Marine career included service as an infantryman and intelligence officer with highlights of three tours of duty in Vietnam and, ultimately, representing the Defense Intelligence Agency as a briefer to the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Secretary of Defense and other Washington area decision makers. He currently manages MILINET an Internet forum on international political/military affairs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Bowden, M, Black Hawk Down, Penguin Books, 2000, p. 208.

2. Fackler, ML,"Wounding patterns of military rifle bullets," International Defense Review, January 1989, pp. 59-64.

3. Ezell, EC & Stevens, RB, The Black Rifle, M16 Retrospective, Collector Grade Publications, Inc., 1994, p. 98.

4. Ibid. pp.99-100.

5. Ibid. pp.101-106.

6. Ibid. pp. 106-107.

7. Ibid. p. 116.

8. Hitler, A, Mein Kampf. James Murphy, translator. London, New York, Melbourne: Hurst and Blackett Ltd; April 1942; page 134.

9. Moore, Col. HG, “After Action Report, Ian Drang Valley Operation 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry 14-16 November 1965,†dated, 9 December 1965, p. 8.

10. Hayworth, Col. J, E-Mail to author, 23 April 2002.

11. Feldmeier, Maj. H, E-Mail to author, 21 May 2002.

12. Anonymous, E-Mail to MILINET, 26 March 2002.

13. Roberts, USNR, LCdr. Gary K., Brief to RAdm Albert M. Calland, CMDR NAVSPECWARCOM, “Enhancement of NSW Carbine & Rifle Capability†brief, 3 March 2003.

14. Jones, Bruce L., “MILINET: Case Studies in Combat Failures of 5.56mm Ammunition,†3 November 2003

15. http://www.dgif.state.va.us/hunting/regs/s...6.html#legaluse

[Abbe 0]

What a quasi-discussion this turned out to be!?

Yes the_bengine, the in-game stuff are weird. There are no real bullets penetrating anything, just weird programing.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the "Sharper recoils" addon, http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=69444 , will fix this programing to the better. At least you can now enjoy pulling a trigger in this game.  

/Abbe

[max power 21]

Quoting that whole paper was unnecessary. A link would have sufficed.

I've heard tell of young men on the beaches of normandy being wounded 3 times by 8mm mauser ammunition and still living to tell about it- in fact, living to tell me about it through the magic of television. Causing someone to die in seconds is a tall order. The writer of your paper appears to be constructing a straw man argument. He's taking the weakest, most ludicrous evidence he can find and then debunking it. It's much harder to debunk possible truths than obvious lies. For instance: If I was involved in an explosion powerful enough to set me on fire for a number of minutes, but had some small section of my intestines destroyed and a collapsed lung from being shot, I think it would be a toss up of what killed me by any medical professional, regardless of the vector of the wound. He says, 'close to the heart' like that's supposed to mean something. There's lots of stuff close to the heart. Obviously, the marines didn't hit his heart or his major arteries, because a pencil in the heart is enough to kill you.

Studies have found that up to something like 100 or 200 yards, the m885 will fragment with a high likelihood, with decreasing fragmentation frequency/amount with increasing range. Analysis of shooting incidences have also found that what you do after you're shot depends largely on your beliefs about being shot, given that there is no physical reason for someone to be instantaneously incapacitated with a 1/3 inch hole in them in and of itself, barring a hit to the central nervous system. If you're hit in the heart and you have 3 minutes of free action left in you before you fall unconscious, what you do with that 3 minutes is largely up to you. Returning fire is an option. This is not a factor to base a study or a paper on, given that there are cultural, psychological, and physical barriers that are not accounted for.

Quote[/b] ]

What you say about standart rounds is true. I just felt unnecessary urge to add the difference between standart and AP rounds.

Fair enough! I do that all the time, too!

[subs17 9]

Biggest observation from current world conflicts is that 5.56mm doesn't tend to stop a person in their tracks as much as a 7.62mm round.(regardless of ammo type) People tend to get up and carry on fighting unless they are hit by a head shot. So 1 or 2 rounds with 5.56mm in Arma should allow the enemy to continue fighting unless its near the vital organs or headshot. 7.62mm should be different as it has much more stopping power, the way 7.62mm is modeled in Arma is actually less effective than 5.56mm if you are using an AK47. The Barret and other .50cal weapons also need some adjustment on their effect, the M107 should remove body parts when it hits them and in the case of long range shots such as 2miles it would in effect split the body in half due to the trajectory . Hopefully Arma2 might have an improved human damage model as it would be quite cool to add a bit more gore to the game.

[celery 8]

the way 7.62mm is modeled in Arma is actually less effective than 5.56mm if you are using an AK47.

The way PKM and SVD kill with mostly one hit anywhere makes me doubt your claims. The game doesn't have an AK-47, only 74 which is 5.45.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Quote[/b] ]Hopefully Arma2 might have an improved human damage model as it would be quite cool to add a bit more gore to the game.

Cool gore effects? Sorry, but if you like to play some arcade-shooters don't use OFP/ArmA.

[mr.g-c 6]

Check out this video from OFP-Resistance modded with FFUR-SLX.

What a sound and feel - great!

This is what i say to realistic feel of a weapon ingame.

Regards, Christian