Sensor view on russian attack copter

[-G-Shock- 0]

Hello there...

Even though i own the very best fps in the world since 1.05, and even though i have completed the alligator mission, i was wondering how comes i cant move the sensor camera view in the helo to lock and engage targets.

Is there a way to bind this camera view to keys? What are the default keys? How is the sensor motion called in the key list?

In cobra i can move the camera with mouse...but in hokum how comes i can't move it?

I just can't move the sensor and must manouver the copter with the pipper on target in order to lock and engage....pretty hard...help pls!

[max power 21]

You can't move the sensor view because it's a gun sight and then gun is fixed.

There's a little more complexity to it than that... like, in the game engine, as far as anyone knows, you need a gunner (ai or otherwise) in order to operate a turret. The kamov is only a single seater...

The long and short of it is, there is no way to turn the gun sight without turning the helicopter.

[Madus_Maximus 0]

Methinks the real things only have an up and down rotation also, so it's not too far off reality.

[-G-Shock- 0]

Methinks the real things only have an up and down rotation also, so it's not too far off reality.

That's basically insane. You mean that the real hokum pilot needs to move the sensor's pipper onto the target (i.e. inf to hit with mg) manouvering the whole copter?

That's impossible imo, right bc it's a single seater there's double reason to make the sensor move. I'll search on the hokum...i'm curious now to see how the real thing works.

[xnodunitx 0]

The integrated 30mm cannon is semi-rigidly fixed on the helicopter's side, movable only slightly in elevation and azimuth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-50 look under Weapons.

Besides, its rather obvious simply by looking at it that the Ka-50's weapon in reality and in ingame would only move up and down. Even if it could move it could only turn to the right and not the left due to its location, mounting it under the nose like the 'generic' attack helicopter design would be the better solution in terms of a fully functional turret.

Chances are fixing the optic and gun on the pilots 'mouse' direction was the easiest, simplest and most sensible of all reasons. If there was a way to bind the gun to the * key or double alt, AKA freelook, then it would be possible to use the gun without moving the helicopter...but at the same you lose control of the helicopter.

Or as somebody once suggest I believe, add a second, unseen gunner, this would only be helpful in SP really, in MP the pilot would lose control of the gun pretty much entirerly due to being unable to order the HU gunner perfectly, basicly target this, the AI always does so and with good efficiency (they love to waste those rockets though), whereas a HU player might no oblige so well..

Toss in the factor that the second gunner will likely not get in due to the kamov's single seat setup, they wouldn't think anything of it.

[Balschoiw 0]

I guess the only reason why it doesn´t work in Arma is the lack of a free mouseaim in Arma as a result of the port from OFP Elite Xbox to PC version of Arma.

There have been numerous complaints about the downsides of this and even a BTS request that got 27 votes but no reaction from BIS at all.

Mouse autocentering

As a sideeffect of this method of steering the free aim for the Kamov got lost.

Quote[/b] ]The long and short of it is, there is no way to turn the gun sight without turning the helicopter.

It was possible in OFP.

[ArMoGaDoN 0]

For the sake of balance I'm really surprised that BIS went with the Ka50 instead of the Ka52. As the hind is missing the 52 would've been a far better choice IMO. Perhaps a future patch could add it to the standard ArmA inventory? (I live in hope...).

I agree that it would still make sense for the cannon to be made steerable on the Ka50 within it's real-world limits though.

[-G-Shock- 0]

That conflicts with another url i found: http://www.defencejournal.com/dec98/ka-50.htm (it says unrestricted aim for the gun lol)

It looks like the copter has an automated system making it turn heading towards the locked target (and this is what is currently missing from arma).

So...maybe, just maybe such a system should be modded in arma...lock + autoturn. The sensor still should be able to move that bit though. It just doesn't make sense right now, if this system is the key for aiming (and it has to be because it's a single-seat copter) without it in arma, this copter is a dead trap.

Luckily it's got an ejection seat...but in arma, you can eject from all copters

[max power 21]

@ Sep. 20 2007,11:36)]

Methinks the real things only have an up and down rotation also, so it's not too far off reality.

That's basically insane. You mean that the real hokum pilot needs to move the sensor's pipper onto the target (i.e. inf to hit with mg) manouvering the whole copter?

That's impossible imo, right bc it's a single seater there's double reason to make the sensor move. I'll search on the hokum...i'm curious now to see how the real thing works.

The helicopter is said to be more maneuverable than any turret anyways. Besides, Russian helicopter tactics are different than american tactics. American tactics focus on stealth and maneuverability (nap of the earth flight), whereas russian helicopters focus more on high top speed, streaking in at tree-top level and firing off their missiles at maximum range. Russians use helicopters to strafe like aircraft and even drop bombs.

Besides, the main cannon of the kamov is much too large and powerful to be mounted on a fully articulated turret anyways. It's the same cannon as is mounted on the bmp3. With the semi rigid mounting, it's much more accurate and stable and therefore has a longer effective range.

The real sensors on the hokum work much differently than in ArmA... and the same goes for any vehicle with sensors in ArmA. The actual work that goes into spotting, acquiring, ranging, and firing on a target is simplified to a huge extent- most features of modern sensors are completely absent from the game. There are some cool videos for that new blackshark simulator out there somewhere. One of the videos (linked to somewhere on this forum) details the functionality of the navigational computer and some weapons. It promises to be quite realistic. However automated it is in real life, it's far from a point and click affair.

Quote[/b] ]

So...maybe, just maybe such a system should be modded in arma...lock + autoturn. The sensor still should be able to move that bit though. It just doesn't make sense right now, if this system is the key for aiming (and it has to be because it's a single-seat copter) without it in arma, this copter is a dead trap.

You'd need a phantom gunner to do that...

But anyways, it's far from a death trap. It has some of the best optics in the game and missiles that will fly straight to the target if you launch them with the nose pointing a few degrees above the target... so you can get first round hits and therefore first round kills on anything ir lockable from several kilometers... plus it's very fast and agile.

[-G-Shock- 0]

I was wondering if it would be sufficient to patch (if not mod) to put in the game the automated turn-system of the copter.

Being the flight model a bit too "superficial", turning the copter manually to aim, especially distant zoomed targets, makes it pretty hard, too hard.

Essentially it's like some tankbusters of ww2...u don't twist the turret you turn the whole hull because....there's no turret.

This difference in us/ru concepts has a point (questionable but still one) but being as it is now in arma it's a pretty useless copter as it lacks the essential part of the avionics this copter was built around.

[Inkompetent 0]

Seeing that the ArmA engine is very bad at treating momentum of helos it sounds like tricky work, but it sure *should* be possible.

Lock on a vehicle and then maybe have an action menu option to centre the gun on the target.

One problem here though is that you can't turn a chopper around it's own axis above some certain speed limit, a maneuver the Black Shark is the best in the world at doing and thus should be able to do, even at high speeds. I dunno if that is hard-coded or not.

[ArMoGaDoN 0]

RE: phantom gunner - could this not be implemented into the game default addon somehow to restore some semblance of balance between the only 2 attack choppers in game?

[SeppSchrot 0]

It was possible in OFP.

It is possible in OFP.

But if I remember correctly, one of the BIS developers (Suma?) stated they had had to drop it in the engine because otherwise they couldn't have implemented the second gun turrent.

Search for it, it was said on this forum.

[-G-Shock- 0]

The engine allows the auto-hover though...isn't it possible to fit in a auto-header when a target is locked on this copter?

[pmd 0]

unless i'm crazy...

the gun moved up and down in OFP.

---offtopic, somewhat---

i had a question about the AT rockets the KA uses. for some reason they LOVE to miss the target even if i'm pointing the chopper at the designated target!

i have no problem in the ah1. missles hit 95% of the time. KA for me is about 60-70%

anybody else get this problem or am i the unlucky one?

[Maddmatt 1]

unless i'm crazy...

the gun moved up and down in OFP.

---offtopic, somewhat---

i had a question about the AT rockets the KA uses. for some reason they LOVE to miss the target even if i'm pointing the chopper at the designated target!

i have no problem in the ah1. missles hit 95% of the time. KA for me is about 60-70%

anybody else get this problem or am i the unlucky one?

The missiles on the Kamov are as unstable as hell. Aim a few degrees above the target (up to 10) and the hit rate goes up. Weird, but it works.

Edit: And yea, the gun moved a bit in OFP. But only if you used a mouse. Was useless if you flew with a joystick.

[SeppSchrot 0]

Edit: And yea, the gun moved a bit in OFP. But only if you used a mouse. Was useless if you flew with a joystick.

I've never been using a joystick in any BIS game but I think you can map keys or another controller axis to "aim up/down".

[subs17 9]

This is video will give you a better idea of how the weapons work IRL for the KA50.

.The Battle Simulator

Click the above link and then select ABRIS&WCS movie. The targetting system is similar to the Shivkal in the SU25T how it works is you turn the sight onto the area where the target is and ground stabilise and from there adjust the target size and lock onto it. From there you engage the laser to paint the target and fire the Vikr anti-tank missile.

So for Arma what would make things much better is for the aircraft to have a working MFD (A-10, AV-8B, AH1, KA50) which can turn left/right/up and down within its real life gimbal limits ground stabilise and slew the TDC onto the target and lock. Should also beable to adjust the size of the tdc box to accomodate different sized vehicles. (In the A-10s case it has to use the mavericks image) Then for the KA50, AH1 and the AV8B(for LGBs) you paint the target and fire the missile/LGB. The KA50 also has OVN1 Skosok night vision so it would pretty much own everything if it were modeled correctly. I am definately looking forward to Black Sharks release checkout the Startup video just imagine doing that online    gotta be quick before the F-15s show up

[subs17 9]

@ Sep. 21 2007,00:36)]

Methinks the real things only have an up and down rotation also, so it's not too far off reality.

That's basically insane. You mean that the real hokum pilot needs to move the sensor's pipper onto the target (i.e. inf to hit with mg) manouvering the whole copter?

That's impossible imo, right bc it's a single seater there's double reason to make the sensor move. I'll search on the hokum...i'm curious now to see how the real thing works.

From the hover the guns can elevate or depress so there is no need to tilt forward or back to aim it probably I think the guns might also have some limited left/right movement from the looks of the Abris/WCS video. The weapons demo is halfway through the movie. What they do is lock the target using the Shivkal targetting system and then place the line on the target and fire. Moving the TDC is easy as all it is a hat switch on the HOTAS.

[Inkompetent 0]

The Ka-50 can turn its cannon both vertically and horizontally. The movement up and left are very limited though, if I remember correctly, while the movement down and to the right is wider (about 30 degrees).

By the way, while we are at it. Anyone here know the different firing modes with S-8 rockets? Which kind of salvos are there?

[-G-Shock- 0]

Great link for the vids, SUBS17!

I'm just trying to figure out why bis put this copter into the game without giving a real chance to the players who fly it. It turns out to be a really superficial choice and probably putting a different russian copter would have been a better choice.

I don't really think BIS will spend 1 minute on it as i can imagine they're committed on arma2, so ...let's forget about a patch but meanwhile, the russians in arma have no credible copter threat.

[NoRailgunner 0]

1) Do you know that ArmA is not that "ultimate" flight/heli sim?

2) IRL: The Ka-50 is armed with quick-firing 30mm gun, which has an unrestricted azimuth and elevation range mounting for use against airborne or ground targets. The gun is equipped with 460 rounds of ammunition: two types being carried, high-fragmentation and explosive incendiary rounds and armour-piercing rounds.

3) Would be nice to have FLIR, radar warning receiver, electronic warfare system and chaff and flare dispenser....

Would'nt it be better if BIS upgrade this heli to KA-52? So we have (in MP) "two-seater vs two-seater"?

[Benoist 0]

The 52 in my opinion is better and it would be good to have two seats so the gunner and the pilot would be so risky (or independant, the need each other).

Buuuuuuuut remember that it's not Russia (even Russia hasn't got any ka-52, the fall of the Soviet Union made the production to cease) and the SLA doesn't have the last on equipment (T72 instead of T80). The KA-52 would be VERY expensive.

[subs17 9]

1) Do you know that ArmA is not that "ultimate" flight/heli sim?

2) IRL: The Ka-50 is armed with quick-firing 30mm gun, which has an unrestricted azimuth and elevation range mounting for use against airborne or ground targets. The gun is equipped with 460 rounds of ammunition: two types being carried, high-fragmentation and explosive incendiary rounds and armour-piercing rounds.

3) Would be nice to have FLIR, radar warning receiver, electronic warfare system and chaff and flare dispenser....

Would'nt it be better if BIS upgrade this heli to KA-52? So we have (in MP) "two-seater vs two-seater"?

Yeah well my view is that BIS is futher into the sim department than any other FPS. And likewise for armoured vehicles. Its not that big a step up to have the basics to make the aircraft more realistic in capability which in turn makes the battlefield more realistic in how it functions. As it is now targetting in aircraft in Arma is arcady and if it were possible to remove some features(armour display,360 deg radar strip,auto land) and slightly expand on others (optical targetting, IR/thermal imagery and zoom) then you would get much greater use of the aircraft. For example IRL its not a matter of targets just appearing you actually have to find them so you hover out of sight and popup slightly. By using the Shivkal you locate the target and lock it up. As it is now you don't have to search for targets the game presents them to you eventhough you know that a vehicle is located in a particular location you have to wait until Arma lets you lock it up. Also the engagement distances are way to close IRL you are viewing the enemy from much further away aircraft such as the A-10 should be able to ID tgts and launch from 5 miles away or more. Hopefully Arma2 might expand a little on this as it has alot of potential to make it even better. BTW what are the gimbal limits of the KA50s guns, you think they are unrestricted in movement? I suggest you take another look

[Universel 0]

@ Sep. 21 2007,17:33)]Great link for the vids, SUBS17!

I'm just trying to figure out why bis put this copter into the game without giving a real chance to the players who fly it. It turns out to be a really superficial choice and probably putting a different russian copter would have been a better choice.

I don't really think BIS will spend 1 minute on it as i can imagine they're committed on arma2, so ...let's forget about a patch but meanwhile, the russians in arma have no credible copter threat.

This is the real question imho.

BIS (Suma) admitted that Ka50 turret cant move because of engine limitations and he didn't say if this could be fixed in the future. Then WHY give us this chopper ?

I mean it's not like Russians don't have any other attack chopper with 2 seats... cuz they have plenty of them.

Mi28 or Hind or Ka52 or whatever...