Is the horrible vehicle steering optional? UGH!

[madrussian 347]

For all of you out there who hate the dreaded mouse-autocenter, now's our chance!

Thanks MehMan for your entry in the bugtracker.  For any of you that might have missed it, it’s here:

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/view.php?id=2705

So far we are at 2 votes.  There, I’ve added mine, we’re up to 3.  The biggest open issue out there currently has 33 votes.  IMO, we should be able to blow that away if we just take a few minutes, sign up in the BT and vote.

Note I said the biggest "open" issue.  There is one with 39 votes, but guess what?  It's been fixed.

Let's get this snowball rolling.

btw- Anyone who wishes to vote on this but is having any difficulty with the BT, please don't be shy - post here and we will help you get it done.

Don't know why I'm devoting so much time to this, lol. Perhaps we should just wait and see how many people vote for it on the bugtracker...

Agreed, lol!  As Balschoiw alluded to earlier, this issue is unlike many others in that the option to turn it off will not adversely affect anyone what-so-ever.  It's a win-win for everyone.

[snakefang 0]

Agreed, i hate the steering in this game, it sucks beyound all belief. Also, why is it that the cars go from like 50 KILOMETERS PER HOUR, which, realisticly they would go faster at top speed, to like 20 KPH when on grass? Im sorry but things like the HMMVVs were made to go over hills and such.

Also, last time i checked, the Stryker isnt a stick shift.... Nor the tank, nor the civilian cars. All of these vihicles have higher top speeds, i mean come on, theres no way a strykers max speed is around 50 KPH, more like 50 MPH.

[frederf 0]

The stryker's top speed set in the config is 100 kmph. That's ~60 mph, true to life.

[quiet_man 8]

6 vote so far,

I'm waiting for my account

QuietMan

[daikan 1]

Thats because mouse/stick steering is set up to take keyboard/button/ on/off type of input thus completely negating the advantages of an analog input. Its the most retarded thing Ive seen in a game. Shame.

not true. joystick steering is perfectly analog. i can steer much more accurately with my joystick (twist axis) than with anything else. the most common error people make is to drive too fast and cause over/understeering and consequently lose control and crash into obstacles.

but there are still 3 problems remaining imho:

- sensitivity is not adjustable (we need proper gradients)

- view shifts slightly according to steering input (causing slight disorientation)

- the usual ArmA-style 'lag'

[hailstorm 4]

yes.  there definately should be an option to turn the mouse auto-center off. why an option? so people who like to run into trees and total vehicles won't B**** and moan when the change is implemented. simple.

actually, it goes more deeper than that. why is it that we have to use the keyboard AND mouse while driving? shouldn't one be enough? why is it you cannot get a goddamn truck to point in the exact direction you want when you're steering with the keyboard only? has anyone tried to ride the TT650 through a forest at full throttle and *not* hit something? what i want to know is, why is it it, when you use the keyboard to steer, you get the situation the steering does not snap straight when you let go of the 'a' or 'd' keys? why does the steering only _slowly_ correct itself, making you oversteer 99% of the time? i mean come on, we've got steering models like the ones in GTA and BF2 letting us put a wheeled vehicle exactly where we want them, why not ArmA?

[madrussian 347]

For everyone that intends to add your vote for this issue in the BT, but hasn't yet had the opportunity to do so (signed up for BT but waiting for your account like QuietMan, etc, and I'm sure there's a bunch):

Once you're able to add your vote, why not come back here and let folks know the new tally?  That would definitely keep the mouse-autocenter issue in the lime-light, and especially help those affected who may have otherwise missed this thread by providing them the opportunity to help out w/ their vote.

why is it that we have to use the keyboard AND mouse while driving? shouldn't one be enough? why is it you cannot get a goddamn truck to point in the exact direction you want when you're steering with the keyboard only?

Good questions. I agree it is difficult to point in the exact direction you want using just the keys.  Aside from the joystick, by far the best implementation for vehicle control is the way OFP has it (mouse and keyboard w/o autocenter).

The following is a simplified description of OFP driving:

The keys control acceleration (fwd and back) and the mouse controls the position of the steering wheel.  That last part is critical.  By mapping the X coordinate of the mouse to the position of the steering wheel, perfect analog control over the steering of the vehicle is achieved!

But this only works if you are allowed to maintain your current heading (i.e. steering wheel position).  Unfortunately, the current mouse-autocenter "feature" in ArmA destroys all this.

So normally, mouse steering w/o the auto-center is extremely precise and ideal, but what about those times where you want to temporarily switch to freelook?  While your mouse is in freelook mode (and thus has no bearing on the controls), the keys seem to get the job done, albeit with less precision.  But I usually only enter freelook for a second or two anyway while driving, b/c I quickly then need to see where I'm going again, switching off freelook mode.

why is it it, when you use the keyboard to steer, you get the situation the steering does not snap straight when you let go of the 'a' or 'd' keys?

Perhaps the current approach in ArmA of keyboard-only driving could use some tuning, but imo there should never be any "snapping".  That is a very binary way of doing things... at least the current method of keys-only controls in ArmA has some analog aspect to it.  Now if we can only eradicate that dreaded mouse-autocenter!  (via option to turn it off)

Thanks for the votes on this so far.  Let's keep em coming!

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/view.php?id=2705

[Mr Sarkey 0]

My suggestion:

If ya can't drive, get out an walk.

[celery 8]

My suggestion:

If ya can't drive, get out an walk.

A very good suggestion supershooter, thank you!

[hailstorm 4]

The following is a simplified description of OFP driving:

The keys control acceleration (fwd and back) and the mouse controls the position of the steering wheel.  That last part is critical.  By mapping the X coordinate of the mouse to the position of the steering wheel, perfect analog control over the steering of the vehicle is achieved!

well, that may be true in ArmA, but it wasn't in OFP. in ofp, the mouse acted as a sort of aimpoint, whereby if you placed your cursor to the left/right (as well as up/down in aircraft) of your vehicle, it would attempt to steer to that point. it made it easier to stay on roads, but to me it was annoying that i couldn't have a small degree of that precision using the 'wasd' keys like most other games that involve driving.

Perhaps the current approach in ArmA of keyboard driving could use some tuning, but imo there should never be any "snapping".  That is a very binary way of doing things... at least the current method of keys-only controls in ArmA has some analog aspect to it.  Now if we can only eradicate that dreaded mouse-autocenter!  (via option to turn it off)

ideally, i wouldn't like to see 'snapping' of the steering, either, but lets not forget that, as realistic as this game is trying to be with the steering model, we are still using a keyboard, mouse, and sometimes joystick to interface with it - none of which can really provide the amount of precision and/or feedback that using a real-life steering-wheel/yoke/cyclic/handlebar can. when i turn a car/motorbike/aircraft in real life, i can control where i want the steering wheel(s) to point at any given moment - something that cannot be simulated by simply pushing the 'a' and 'd' keys within ArmA/OFP's engine (in it's present state).

i suggested using a 'snap-straight' steering model because, although it's not totally realistic, it compensates for the lack of precision that the computer controls give the player - a gamer would be able to stop turning (the body of the vehicle) exactly when he/she wants to. it's the way practically every driving game known to man has worked. plus, would it be a big deal if your steering wheels snapped straight during turns? visually it dosen't look 'right' but at least i'lll be able to hammer my TT650 Yammie through the woods at full throttle without the fear i'm going to crash into every second tree (well, maybe the third or fourth, but at least i could try to do something about it). basically, if i'm only pushing the 'w' key, i want to be going forward at that point in time, simple. imo, i think the ends justify the means.

[mrj-fin 0]

To making steering more realistic it will not take much time just need first get out that auto center. Then i would like to see realistic gear options, ignition, clutch and bumbs. The current system 0 or 1 power is not satisfacting. Acceleration, steering rate and braking power should be as extra configs like mouse movement. And of course BIS should let us allow to use analog steering wheels and pedals!

[madrussian 347]

well, that may be true in ArmA, but it wasn't in OFP.

We are really saying the same thing here! You do bring up a very good point though, mentioning the "aimpoint" specifically.  We definitely need that back in ArmA, as Balschoiw has been advocating.  Maybe someone should add that as a note to the current bug in the BT?

ideally, i wouldn't like to see 'snapping' of the steering, either

I'm assuming HailStorm that you are only using keys to drive with currently because the mouse steering is so screwed up due to the god-awful auto-centering?  Seems to me as soon as we get our option to turn off the mouse auto-center (and hopefully get the aimpoint), most driving with the mouse/keys combo will be mouse=steer and keys=throttle only.

Except of course when we temporarily wish to use freelook, during which time we're be stuck with keys-only.  Well, I definitely respect your opinion, but I have to admit I've always hated the "snapping" effect of other games.  Classic case of a change from an acceptable semi-analog style of key-only control to all-or-nothing binary snapping was H&D1 (semi-analog) to H&D2 (snapping).  In any event, OFP had keys-only driving spot on (semi-analog), so imo it should be like that.

Main matter over all though is the elimination of mouse auto-center (via option in controls menu).  The rest is far less important, imo.

EDIT:

The current system 0 or 1 power is not satisfacting. Acceleration, steering rate and braking power should be as extra configs like mouse movement. And of course BIS should let us allow to use analog steering wheels and pedals!

Amen bro!

[celery 8]

To making steering more realistic it will not take much time just need first get out that auto center. Then i would like to see realistic gear options, ignition, clutch and bumbs. The current system 0 or 1 power is not satisfacting. Acceleration, steering rate and braking power should be as extra configs like mouse movement. And of course BIS should let us allow to use analog steering wheels and pedals!

Or let's all just get in our own cars and have a round of Road Rage in the neighborhood for maximum realism! At least then there won't be any auto centering.

[-HUNTER- 1]

I just use the mouse for driving, and for sharp corners or when parking or such I help a bit with the keyboard keys.

[Speedkore 0]

im agree with all those who complain about all terrain vehicles handling, every day is a fight against silly things in armed in this forum. I hope they change it like they done with helicopters after 2000 post of people complaining.

[Balschoiw 0]

Please take your time and vote here

for the optional change of autocentre function in Arma.

Up to now 10 people have voted.

The more votes, the more likely it will get that it will be added/fixed.

Everyone unhappy with the current steering with mouse + keyboard

should definately go over there and vote. This is the only way we can really bring this issue to BIS attention on a broad level.

[Journeyman 0]

I think there have been threads about this in the past but alas I’m afraid BIS has ‘stuck to their guns’!

[RANT] Controlling vehicles in OFP with a mouse was a dream and I really cannot see why we now need to have some kind of time response auto centre on mouse steering in ArmA! It serves NO purpose whatsoever other than to annoy many people! My car does not have auto centre on the steering wheel! When I’m typing a word document my cursor doesn’t keep returning to the centre of the screen!

Please BIS at least make this silly feature OPTIONAL! OH and while were at it please separate boat engine controls from rudder controls! Again I can’t see why it has been done this way! This is a REALISM game right? [/RANT]  

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think there have been threads about this in the past but alas I’m afraid BIS has ‘stuck to their guns’!

Up to now I am not aware of any answer regarding this issue by BIS.

The BT is the best way to get their attention on it and if people actually vote for the BT suggestion it can´t be bad at all and only be good for us, who have big problems with consistent steering with mouse+keyboard.

[Journeyman 0]

OK Balsch I added my vote! Although I reported this issue in the BT many months ago together with other issues. I guess BIS has just had their hands full with too many more important bugs to swat!  

[hailstorm 4]

as a side-note, does anyone know how long it takes for the admin to give us a bugtracker account? i sent a PM off on the 26th last month, and still havent recieved any word back yet...

I'm assuming HailStorm that you are only using keys to drive with currently because the mouse steering is so screwed up due to the god-awful auto-centering?  Seems to me as soon as we get our option to turn off the mouse auto-center (and hopefully get the aimpoint), most driving with the mouse/keys combo will be mouse=steer and keys=throttle only.

not quite, just i never thought that something as simple as driving would require the use of two hands at all times. i mean, i don't use two hands to drive my car, even when i'm on my motorbike i don't use both hands all the time, so why does ArmA force us to? sometimes i wanna have a drink when i'm driving! i mean, i'm fine with people who would prefer using the mouse to steer, but personally, i just never got why it had to be that difficult to steer with just the keyboard in the first place.

maybe a solution could be that, instead of an instantaneous snapping of the steering, the time it currently takes for the steering to move back to 'straight' could be sped up?

another thing about the aimpoint that i miss so much is using it to target stuff. when flying an aircraft, i find i get shot down lots more times than i used to, now cause i can't get my weapons to lock on to that shilka i *know* is right there! and when you're in a mission where there are lots of hostile vehicles, it's impossible to use the tab key fast enough! i'm not sure if removing the aimpoint was done on purpose for this very reason, but i'm sure in real life if a vehicle was under attack the crew would be able to direct all their weapons sensors at the threat immediately.

[xxbbcc 6]

not quite, just i never thought that something as simple as driving would require the use of two hands at all times. i mean, i don't use two hands to drive my car, even when i'm on my motorbike i don't use both hands all the time, so why does ArmA force us to?

Because in RL you use your feet to accelerate?

Driving cars in ArmA is pretty bad, though. The OFP way was much better. (For all practical purposes, in ArmA it's broken.)

[wamingo 1]

not quite, just i never thought that something as simple as driving would require the use of two hands at all times. i mean, i don't use two hands to drive my car, even when i'm on my motorbike i don't use both hands all the time, so why does ArmA force us to?

How can you compare a wheel to a keyboard? Get a wheel+gas+brake pedal for the game, THEN compare.

What you can or cannot do in real life holds little or no meaning in games. The 3 gas levels in this game are Off, Medium and Fast and even the medium is like 70km/h in humvee. You're not going to be going 70km/h in the corners of the narrow roads that this game has. That's something you do on a freeway with wiiiide turns. Knowing this and with a little constraint I can drive just fine with just one hand without crashing in game. Constraint is hard in a game where travel is long of course...

I voted for improvements too, but I'd keep RL out of it.

[Journeyman 0]

I agree this is not about RL but about ease of gameplay. I actually don't bother trying to use the mouse (ACA Trackball) to drive in ArmA anymore, as it is just too frustrating. Instead I've set up the controls on my Cyborg 3D Gold joystick where the steering is the twist action and the throttle/brake is the slider! This gives me complete analogue control of both steering and movement and is not as much an encumbrance to have to grab and use, as setting up my wheel and pedals would be each time I jumped in a vehicle!

The joystick gives me much more control and adds realism to some extent but I still preferred being able to keep my hand firmly on my mouse when jumping in and out of vehicles! Call it ease of gameplay or laziness whichever but I certainly don't fancy having to set up my wheel and pedals every time just to drive a few miles to a base then jump out and start shooting!  

[Wolfrug 0]

The 3 gas levels in this game are Off, Medium and Fast and even the medium is like 70km/h in humvee. You're not going to be going 70km/h in the corners of the narrow roads that this game has. That's something you do on a freeway with wiiiide turns. Knowing this and with a little constraint I can drive just fine with just one hand without crashing in game. Constraint is hard in a game where travel is long of course...

Actually I think there're three? At least on my keyboard Q is "slow", W is "normal" and E is "fast". Going by the speed gauge in the Landrover, "slow" is about 50-60 kmp/h, so slightly better (good for keeping AI-driven formations in line)

Otherwise, the steering/driving in ArmA seems perfectly OK to me, I think the problems come more from the lack of proper driving physics than anything else (skidding, car weight, not to mention how ridiculously easy it is to total the car...). Can't really claim I feel any difference from OFP.

Regards,

Wolfrug

[sdoc 0]

i quite like the autocentre for the mouse. in ofp i had to hit the * key first to get freelock, else the mouse was always interfering when driving or flying with keyboard or joystick. geting out of a vehicle in combat conditions was always a problem as i had to look for that * key again.

now with autocenter i can steer vehicles with keyboard, finecontroll with mouse, giving me much more controll than i had in any other driving game. i don't have to change my hand position for driving, and i am ready to fire after leaving the vehicle.

when flying a choper i use the mouse for aiming precisely with ffars or the fixed 30 mm in russian choppers. works like a charm.

its not so much different from moving with a human avatar, where we strife left and right with one hand on the keyboard, and do precission movements and aiming with the mouse.