ArmA Modelling Basics

[cl10k 0]

Hello everyone,

i once tried modelling for opf but due to rl stuff i did not have the time to finish my first attempt. With ArmA being quite nice i want to give modelling a second try and got some very basic questions - i hope this is the right forum and i haven't overseen a topic already covering my questions, allthough even if using the search-function it is really hard to gather all the bits and pieces together....

now to my questions:

1. what is the avarage polycount for the different vehicles and their lod's? !ok explained!

2. how many lod's are used? !ok explained!

3. what different textures (spec, normal,...) are supported by the engine and what texturesizes are used? !ok explained!

4. is it possible the detect how a vehicle was destroyed, p.e. by mines, rockets or normal bullets?

thx in advance

cl10k

PS: if there is already such a topic, a link would be very nice^^

@mods: if this is the wrong forum, please move it to an appropriate place ;-)

[adumb 0]

Hello cl10k,

Fist just let me say modding for ArmA is not going to be as easy as the old OFP days, you need to know so much more, its not like in ofp were all you needed was a model, main textures and a config. ArmA has many more aspects you're going to need and understand how to make them, for all the eye candy you see.

The pipe line for ArmA is not a very long one, or an easy one, but in the long run you will have an addon you can do just about anything you want to in ArmA.

ArmA is not going to care all that much about poly counts, some-what how ofp was, its not going to stop you from making a 25k poly model of shinRaiden in the shower, and ArmA wont bitch to you too much, but why go that high? you wont need to ArmA now supports normal mapping. so that 20k model of shinRaiden in the shower holding a ducky can be 2k and normal mapped to look like a 25k model.

I'm not about to start stating rules on what needs to be done, what will work and what will not work. this is more of a guideline on how i model, and i dont have much of a "max" poly count... i ask myself how many times the model is going to be used in a mission, sometimes if at all!! and go from there, if im modeling a tank i'll go to a 10/12K poly count, but not all tanks need to be 12k. this is there you have to ask yourself "Do i need to have 40 side wheels? cant i normal map the nuts and bolts on?" and be honest to yourself, the community does not need l33t n00ber pwnting models, they need great models that work on any server at any time.

Lod's are something all models need, i've seen so many that have 2 or 3 lods on a model that has a good 9k poly count, in the long run that would just kill the server and users off if you had many of the same model ingame. all models i make have 7 LODs, the last one being 100 polys. and all lods need to be modeled down, not deleting part of the model (you can do that to some of the model) but its much cleaner if you were to properly modeled them down for much cleaner and better looking Lod. you don't wanna see a box at 1500 view do you? i don't think so, thats why taking the time to make proper Lods is the way to go.

ArmA now supports a wide verity of textures (normal map, ambient shadow, specular map) for all the eye candy, and can take a fair bit of time to understand what they mean, and how they work, what models needs what AND how to apply the materials.

Max texture size is an easy one, thanks to ATI its 2048X2048. now does that mean you can texture every model you make at 2048x2048? hell no! you'd kill us all, why? you have to think about all the materials you are applying, you have normal map, ambient shadow and specular all at the same res. on top of the shaders, having a texture size rule may come in handy, but at the end of the day its just more rules? as long as you think before you do, none of us will have to bitch about lag in mp.

Well, i know i said rules suck, but this rule every one must go by, it's the amount of texture used per model, you can not have 70 or 80 textures for a tank model, this is why some of the bigger mods like BAS have banned all imports to ArmA, i think all mods should do the same. ArmA has come a long way and mass importing of unoptimized addons would set us all back years.

As i said before im not here to start stating rules, this is just a guideline... having too many rules will just take the fun out of modding games, and if your not having fun whats the point?

[Billabong81 0]

its not going to stop you from making a 25k poly model of shinRaiden in the shower

If anyone needs reference pictures for this project, please PM Sniper Skull

[cl10k 0]

wow Sniper Skull thank you so much for your detailed describtion. this is really appreciated! as for the modelling aspects i am quite used to modern day normal-mapping-modelling, allthough maya is still a bit bitchy with normal maps on my comp...

i modelled alot but never really succeeded in modelling for a game engine accept my poor attempts on my vodnik model for opf. there is simply so much to be aware of...

at the moment i am redoing/adjusting my old vodnik model to the new engine.

One of the big problems i have to deal with is texturing - i never really was disciplined enough to completly finish my textures, due to the lack of (some basic) knowledge.

I still have one question regarding texturing in Arma: Is it possible to combine different texture-resolution on one model? p.e. 1024^2 normal map and 512^2 shadow map? or is there any engine limitation?

[Sennacherib 0]

you can't use a normal map 512x512 for a 1024x1024 texture; because you need to use the uvmapping to put the normal map on your model (low polys model).

but of course you can have different texture sizes on 1 model. for example for a tank:

1024x1024 for the hull or 2048x2048 the hull + something else.

512x512 for a wheel etc. and the normal mapping is not useful for a whole model, because some parts don't need that.

and of course you can use the bump mapping instead of the normal mapping (high polys model- low polys model method), and you can edit it to have different heights on a texture.

the only limitation is our creativity

[dm 9]

Oh dear

YES you CAN use a smaller normal map with a larger texture, <span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>AS LONG AS THE RATIOS REMAIN THE SAME</span>. I.e. if you have a 1024x512 texture, then the normal map needs to be 512x256, or 256x128, or ofcourse 1024x512.

[Edit to add] Although this brings little to no benefit (aside from saving a little bit of gfx RAM) so theres really not much point. [/Edit]

And lets not even begin to go down this "Bump mapping Vs. Normal mapping" road (again, for the 4346456456 gajillionth time) ArmA supports a very specific set of normal maps, as listed on the wiki:

# _NO - normal map

# _NS - normal map specular (with alpha)

# _NOF - normal map faded (mipmaps fade the texture in distance, usefull for terrain)

# _NOHQ - normal map high quality

# _NOVHQ - normal map high quality

However, technically speaking, normal mapping is a variation of Bump mapping. But for simplicities sake, lets just call it "Normal mapping" since thats the standard used throughout the engine.

What you describe as the "high polys model- low polys model method" is not called "bump mapping" but is a method for generating bump (or more usually) normal maps, by using the details of a high-poly, high-detail model to generate a normal map for a lower poly mesh.

[nephilim 0]

2x deadmeat

actually it would make more sense using a smaller diffuse map

and punching in a larger normalmap since this gives you most of the details in nowadays engines.

but once again is dependant on what you want to achieve

and personal taste

about the size ration im different minded.. :P

since the UVW space is always based on a 2*2 ratio

so it actually doesnt matter if your texture is 1024*512 OR 512*512, the uvw space will always be in 2*2 format.

but again (:P) it might be usefully if you want to map certain long objects like rifles for example

cheers

[dm 9]

about the size ration im different minded.. :P

since the UVW space is always based on a 2*2 ratio

so it actually doesnt matter if your texture is 1024*512 OR 512*512, the uvw space will always be in 2*2 format.

The point was not the actual size of the map, but that the ratios of the lengths of the sides HAVE to remain the same. It just happened that I used 1024x512 as an example.

For further examples:

a 2048 x 2048 diffuse map could be used with: 2048 x 2048, 1024 x 1024, 512 x 512 (and so on) normal and specular maps.

a 2048 x 512 diffuse map could be used with: 2048 x 512, 1024 x 256, 512 x 128 (and so on) normal and specular maps.

[Törni 0]

Talking about maps. Do you know how to get dammageHalf and dammageFull texture swapping working? Simply listing what is changed to what is not doing the trick.

So far about a week with this and no progress. I must be really stupid

[cl10k 0]

i agree with neph. my plan was to use a smaller diffuse and quite a big normal map.... but so far thx to everyone for answering my questions. But what about the detection of how a vehicle was destroyed (4. question in 1. post) - for example by the amount of damage that was inflicted to it with the last critical hit(s)? IS IT POSSIBLE?

[Sennacherib 0]

Oh dear

YES you CAN use a smaller normal map with a larger texture, <span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>AS LONG AS THE RATIOS REMAIN THE SAME</span>. I.e. if you have a 1024x512 texture, then the normal map needs to be 512x256, or 256x128, or ofcourse 1024x512.

[Edit to add] Although this brings little to no benefit (aside from saving a little bit of gfx RAM) so theres really not much point. [/Edit]

And lets not even begin to go down this "Bump mapping Vs. Normal mapping" road (again, for the 4346456456 gajillionth time) ArmA supports a very specific set of normal maps, as listed on the wiki:

# _NO - normal map

# _NS - normal map specular (with alpha)

# _NOF - normal map faded (mipmaps fade the texture in distance, usefull for terrain)

# _NOHQ - normal map high quality

# _NOVHQ - normal map high quality

However, technically speaking, normal mapping is a variation of Bump mapping. But for simplicities sake, lets just call it "Normal mapping" since thats the standard used throughout the engine.

What you describe as the "high polys model- low polys model method" is not called "bump mapping" but is a method for generating bump (or more usually) normal maps, by using the details of a high-poly, high-detail model to generate a normal map for a lower poly mesh.

thx i didn't know that but i agree with Neph, it's better to have the same size for the normal map and the diffuse map, to have better details.

and when you use 3dsmax, you can see the difference between 512x512 or 1024x1024; it's not the same quality. And if you use the cage tool, it's better to use the same size for both maps.

[cl10k 0]

@ d@nte: neph said it would be clever to have a large normal-map for adding lots of prezise details and a smaller diffuse...

[Sennacherib 0]

lol, i need to buy glasses

but one thing is also important. when you make a normal map (bump map method), with the texture which is used in the diffuse map, i mean an overlay metal texture, if your bump map doesn't have the same size, you will have some problems (i use the same metal texture for the diffuse and the normal map texture, but with modifications; i use the bump map method for the vehicles). this is the same thing for the specular map, which is used to add realistc lights on the texture.

[dm 9]

but one thing is also important. when you make a normal map (bump map method), with the texture which is used in the diffuse map, i mean an overlay metal texture, if your bump map doesn't have the same size, you will have some problems (i use the same metal texture for the diffuse and the normal map texture, but with modifications; i use the bump map method for the vehicles). this is the same thing for the specular map, which is used to add realistc lights on the texture.

Could you please clarify exactly what you mean by the "bump map method" so as to prevent any ambiguity.

(I have a feeling you're probably using the wrong name for a method, but please describe it so we can either correct it, or you can proove a point )

[Sennacherib 0]

second part of the tut:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=46&t=373024

[dm 9]

Ahh, ok.

So you ARE making bump maps... But...

You are aware that they wont work in ArmA right?

ArmA REQUIRES the RGB Normal Maps (the ones that look blue) and wont work with greyscale bump maps...

[Johannes 10]

normal map:

bump map:

While bump mapping perturbs the existing normal (the way the surface is facing) of a model, normal mapping replaces the normal entirely.

[dm 9]

Cheers Jonny, that should clear that up once and for all

[cl10k 0]

take a look at the (real) normal mapping tutorials on cgsociety...

bump mapping is something different!

i dont want to provoke another bump/normalmapping fight, but as far as i know you can either create your normal map in 2d using a photoshop plugin or similar tools (quite ok for hardsurface stuff) or you use a highres (usually done in zbrush or mudbrush for organic surfaces) and a lowres model and let your application create the normal maps automaticly based on the highpoly-surface...

one example for using the highploy/lowpoly method (quite impressive imo)

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=39&t=479896

good night

edit: deadmeat and jonny were faster

[adumb 0]

See why i didnt get into much about normal/bump mapping?

[blackjack-VS- 0]

sup everyone, i guess some wiki about normal maps would clarify some of the minds here...the bump map technique u mentioned is the nvidia plugin for photoshop and gimp, that usually works good for hatches and small details. the high poly/low poly normal map capture is always the best option for a quality model.

I use XSI from softimage at work and home, and its really nice and easy to make the tranfer of all the maps from the high/low poly models(ultimapper).

cl10k i strongly advise u to grab xsi 30 days demo fully working, and give it a shot with ur maya models. u can find a short video tutorial on their homepage inside the new features area.

[Delirium 0]

even better way is to use xnormal, which is free and at times it works way better that XSI or even a scultping app like mudbox or Zbrush.

[Sennacherib 0]

Ahh, ok.

So you ARE making bump maps... But...

You are aware that they wont work in ArmA right?

ArmA REQUIRES the RGB Normal Maps (the ones that look blue) and wont work with greyscale bump maps...

lol, i'm not stupid, i use the nvidia filter to have the needed rgb normal map.

why i should use the high polys method, just to add 4 or 5 details and to create scrathes on a hull for example?

a quick example:

[cl10k 0]

i don't think it was ment in a offensive way and since this is MY! topic everybody behave!

but i agree with you d@nte, i think it is totally overkill to build a highpoly just for scratches and stuff

@Delirium: thx for the hint towards xnormal, i read about it some time ago and since maya normal mapping is making trouble on my comp i will definetly give it a try!

[dm 9]

@ May 26 2007,03:09)]...the bump map technique u mentioned is the nvidia plugin for photoshop and gimp, that usually works good for hatches and small details. the high poly/low poly normal map capture is always the best option for a quality model.

No... it isnt. if you're making a Normal Map you're making a Normal Map, regardless of whether you're hand drawing it using the nVidia plugin, or whether you're generating it from a high poly model. If you're making a Bump Map, then you're making a Bump Map and the methods can be called "Bump Map methods".

lol, i'm not stupid, i use the nvidia filter to have the needed rgb normal map.

why i should use the high polys method, just to add 4 or 5 details and to create scrathes on a hull for example?

Where did I call you stupid? And where did I say you HAVE to generate Normal Maps from high poly models?

I didn't. I simply clarified that if you're making Bump Maps as per the tutorial you used, they will NOT WORK in ArmA. You have to make Normal Maps, and how you do that is up to you, whether you hand draw them or generate them from a high poly model, it doesnt matter as long as its a Normal Map and NOT a Bump Map.

Edit to add: And no, it wasnt meant in an offensive manner, but since this is meant to be a "help about the basics" thread, I want to make sure that there is 100% NO ambiguity. And throwing around phrases like "bump map" and "normal map" doesnt help.