ineffectiveness of aircraft vs tanks

[Spectre867 0]

so im stuck on the "The Great Battle" mission because my mighty AH-1Z USMC attack helicopter keeps getting shot down by.....

....T-72s???

So I'm not a USMC Cobra pilot nor am I a T-72 tank crewman, but I am in the Marines and I'm pretty sure the chances of shooting down a helicopter moving at over 200 kmph with your co-ax is...well, there is no chance. The only situation I can think of a tank being able to take down a Cobra is if the Cobra was hovering within 200 yds of the tank, which Cobras simply don't do when they're are hostile tanks around. I've seen those things in action and they absolutely destroy everything around them, the only thing that should be able to take them down are the shilkas and stingers/rpgs. Hopefully this will get fixed in the patch because air support pretty much counts for jack shoot (every mission where I've had "air support", it has gotten shot down within 1 minute of showing up).

Anyone know if this is going to be fixed in the upcoming patch or if there is a hotfix/addon that disables tanks from engaging aircraft like in orignal OFP?

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

1st: the AI ability to predict the flightpath is insane good. Basically the fire is to accurate. But on the other hand is 1 lucky bullet on one rotor base enough.

2nd: the damage model for bullets received at different parts is poor/simple. You can make a cheese out of the copter as long as you don not hit something that explodes or steering or gear. Means basically in RL the copter body and even the tank can digest a lot of 7.62 while rotors are sensitive.

[william1 0]

choppers in 1.07fix patch are worthless, pure fetish , completely useless ... even a baby with a stone can shot them down

[Average Joe 0]

choppers in 1.07fix patch are worthless, pure fetish , completely useless ... even a baby with a stone can shot them down

Rocket Propelled Stone?

[william1 0]

no , hand thrown

[l mandrake 9]

Interesting point. Maybe the fix is simply to make the AI pilots fly faster and higher when engaging ground targets - on 'Evolution' I've frequently witnessed Kamovs crashing into tall buildings while chasing hummvees

Also I agree it is too easy to knock down choppers with a .50cal MG, again mostly because they drift in so slow and low (and the Mgs have very little recoil)

Mandrake

[gazmen 0]

I am in the Marines and I'm pretty sure the chances of shooting down a helicopter moving at over 200 kmph with your co-ax is...well, there is no chance.

Know that nothing is impossible, if you had said to a WW2 marine that one day he would be able to shoot somehone at 2.300 m with a sniper, he would probably said that you are crazy.

"Impossible n'est pas français" (Impossible is not french)

"A coeur vaillant rien d'impossible" (to braveheart nothing impossible)

French citation

The american says no one can shot down a F-117 but the Yougoslave do it...

For my self in OFP i have shot down numerous chopper, it's easy when they are not to near, when they move above you to make a rotation to attack again they keep the same path, when they are at 300m shoot a sabot just above the rotor, and boom, shooted... I have even do it one time with a L.A.W but is very difficult...

Of course if they (choppers) are at 8km, in autohover mode {thing that I.A niver do}, in the night, scanning with thermal & night vision, helped by intelligence Recon Sat (G.P.S) marking the target and If you are in middle of the road in the desert, in a night without cloud, the chance to hit the chopper or survive to his attack would be quite lower.

But if a tank abram rolling at 70km can hit on ground an other T-80 moving at same speed, I don't understand why a a static hided tank will not be able to hit a chopper in air...

In real life is perhaps more difficult... But this is only a "game" (recruiting propaganda simulation to be exact)...

Of course for Iraki Tank, hiding in the desert is not possible, but If you are in europe you surely be able to hide your tank on vegetation... And shot down a chopper that would not see you...

[evil koala 6]

Maybe try not flying right in front of them, within range of small arms.. Your helicopter is loaded with missiles that can reach out to 8km, and a gun that can accurately engage targets out to 1.2km. Use that range and fire from a conceiled position.

And helicopter's are quite fragile. It doesnt take much to take one down in RL.

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

Although I agree with plaintiff on his points you should not forget that the T-72 has a .50cal gun which is intented for AA use.

And the range of a .50cal is over 1.5 km ... so if that T72 can hit you, you are in trouble.

[sandzibar 0]

Ive been playing around with the editor and the paper choppers...

UH60's/AH6/MH6

when in the air - anything with a PKM and above targets and kills pilots.

when on the ground - anything with a pistol and above above targets and kills pilots (awesome for when trying to land in a hot LZ - everything alive can kill you quickly and easily)

AH-1s

when in the air - anything with a .50cal (UAZ, T72 etc) and above targets and kills pilots.

when on the ground - anything with a PKM and above.

Might not be so bad if the AI wasnt able to accurately hit pilots so easily at the max range of their held weapon (they dont aim for the heli itself btw) - and the fact that it seems like 50% of the troops in an AI squad have a PKM equipped.

Guess the hardest thing with programming AI is making them have crap aim like a human.

[AWDrift 0]

I've had tanks shoot down A-10s. The tank gunners are way too accurate.

[l mandrake 9]

Ah that makes sense - AI needs to target the chopper body itself not the pilot, just a like a human player would.

[wamingo 1]

Well aren't helicopters supposed to engage threats at long range anyway? So it's a bit skewed in game. AI isn't clever enough to hover somewhere out of range. Heck, neither are players online very often...

Not sure if this one shows it, but I liked it so, hey here goes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrzFEWMDT7g

One big problem imo is that it's so easy to fly those things, helicopters... Easy radar, easy tab selection, and you can practically just spam tab/fire with seeking missiles and level a whole convoy in 3 seconds. Alternatively you just spam rockets and it's just sad. Flying is supposed to be fun but also take some skill and since missile weapons doesn't cost anything like in the real world, something ought to be added to make them less overpowered without simply decreasing damage values.

The simplest fix I can think of is, we keep tab, but aquiring a perfect lock on targets should take a while, perhaps between to 3-10 seconds depending on weapon. A plane might have trouble if it takes too long.

Do this and the OP's problem is fixed, because, since you'd need to fly slower or even hover, while the gunner waits for a lock, you'd want to be well out of range while doing this.

my 2 cents anyhow.

And I don't care if it's not the most realistic approach. Neither is the radar or tab. And the limited view distance makes air to ground (and air to air) a rather shaky ordeal altogether.

[frederf 0]

Greatly increased Tank/BMP/Shilka effectiveness against jets is one of the highly touted features of 1.07 by the way. I assume it also effects helos.

Does anyone know if modern tanks (Abrams, T-90, etc) have the ability to track and fire at flying targets? I'd believe both yes and no.

I also don't know if an AH-1 has armored glass or not.

I think with a real Hellfire missile you cannot fly as fast as you want. Some good mods coming out will sort this.

[zootia 0]

I definitely agree that AA in 1.07 is TOO over done.

I was attacking a group of tanks with the GAU-8 on my a10. I took out 1 tank and disabled another and pulled out of my dive. There were 2 more tanks remaining, and I thought I would bank around and make another run. So I pulled on my stick to regain altitude and pressed the decimal key to check out the damage I had done. I saw 2 tanks smoldering and then I noticed a sudden plume of smoke rising from one of the undamaged tanks. I was like 'Ha, are you serious? You're gonna try to hit me with your main cannon when I'm 250 meters above ground? lololol!'

I saw the round coming up and then... Kabang!

I Took a direct hit to one of my engines, and the A10 started spinning like a goddamned top before blowing up shortly after.

Damn AI tank gunners got some mad skillz!

[gazmen 0]

I've had tanks shoot down A-10s. The tank gunners are way too accurate.

This one of reason why BAS had added High Dispersion Mag & Values to the JAM_magazines, to simulate real life behavior...

[Jester_UK 0]

Greatly increased Tank/BMP/Shilka effectiveness against jets is one of the highly touted features of 1.07 by the way. I assume it also effects helos.

Does anyone know if modern tanks (Abrams, T-90, etc) have the ability to track and fire at flying targets? I'd believe both yes and no.

I also don't know if an AH-1 has armored glass or not.

I think with a real Hellfire missile you cannot fly as fast as you want. Some good mods coming out will sort this.

I don't know about the T-72 or BMP-2, but the M1A1's commander's MG is powered for rotation but elevation is adjusted via a hand crank (M1A2 is powered for both rotation and elevation, but I'm not sure whether this has been retro-fitted to the A1 variants). AFAIK niether have any type of computer assisted lead calculation such as most (if not all) modern MBT's have for the main gun. This would mean that the commander would have to guess the aircraft or chopper's flight path, dial in the elevation and put a continuous stream of lead into the air in the hope the aircraft flies into it.

The Shilka on the other hand has fully guided weaponry and computer calculated lead adjustment. This means if you fly into it's kill zone (AFAIK it's accurate up to an altitude of 3000m) you could (and should) be toast no matter what you're flying.

The Cobra has a fully armoured cockpit that at the very least should be resistant to all handheld weapons. Not too sure about 12.7mm (.50cal) rounds (especially if they're explosive or AP). The same doesn't apply to the Black Hawk (again AFAIK).

In game one option is to reduce the AI accuracy settings in the options screen. I've been doing this for a while since I got tired of being sniped by a single headshot by AK-74 toting rookie AI's 500m away. I've noticed the same trends as mentioned in this thread, but having AI accuracy set lower means I don't see every Cobra getting shot out of the sky all the time.

[BlackScorpion 0]

Many ATGM missiles have the ability to target and atleast shoot down slow-flying helicopters, and in some systems, AFAIK, the capability is also for the main turret system. Not that much of a question of pure gunner capability since AFAIK most modern gun systems are slaved to the targetting computer, with manual backups on atleast some, though.

And yes, most tanks still have a high-caliber external AA MG... effectiveness on some targets is questionable, but...

[Spectre867 0]

ok im on what i assume to be the final mission and now i am getting shot down in harriers by t-72s....

i dont mean to be blunt but did they even test their campaign before this game was released?

i dont care whether its THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE or not, i believe for realism's sake, tanks should not be able to engage aircraft, unless it is ONLY with the .50 cal on top.

and whoever suggested engaging them from farther out...i was 1000 yds away when i got shot down one time, usually i am about 300 yds to 600 yds. all of these distances you can barely see the tanks, just the tracers coming up at my aircraft a few seconds before i hear a beep beep and i watch my armour go down to zero in about 5 seconds. the game's engine doesnt really allow you to engage targets over ~1500 yds in my experience.

[Spectre867 0]

Quote[/b] ]Know that nothing is impossible, if you had said to a WW2 marine that one day i would be able to shoot somehone at 2.300 m with a sniper, he would probably said that you are crazy.

"Impossible n'est pas français" (Impossible is not french)

"A coeur vaillant rien d'impossible" (to braveheart nothing impossible)

French citation

The american says no one can shot down a F117 but the Yougoslave do it...

For my self in OFP i have shot down numerous chopper, it's easy when they are not to near, when they move above you to make a rotation to attack again they keep the same path, when they are at 300m shoot a sabot just above the rotor, and boom, shooted... I have even do it one time with a L.A.W but is very difficult...

Of course if they (choppers) are at 8km, in autohover mode {thing that I.A niver do}, in the night, scanning with thermal & night vision, helped by intelligence Recon Sat (G.P.S) marking the target and If you are in middle of the road in the desert, in a night without cloud, the chance to hit the chopper or survive to his attack would be quite lower.

But if a tank abram rolling at 70km can hit on ground an other T-80 moving at same speed, I don't understand why a a static hided tank will not be able to hit a chopper in air...

In real life is perhaps more difficult... But this is only a "game" (recruiting propaganda simulation to be exact)...

Of course for Iraki Tank, hiding in the desert is not possible, but If you are in europe you surely be able to hide your tank on vegetation... And shot down a chopper that would not see you...

thanks for the philosophical insight, but i have a very hard time believing that any modern day tank can engage a helicopter moving at over 200 km/h. and to get shot down within about 30 seconds of coming with 500 yds of a t-72...you've got to be kidding me.

there are plenty of things that you can do in this game that you can't do in real life, and plenty of things you can do in real life that you can't in this game, but just because it is possible to shoot a helicopter down or because you can do it in the game, does not make it realistic.

and who's "recruiting propoganda" is this exactly?

[gazmen 0]

ok im on what i assume to be the final mission and now i am getting shot down in harriers by t-72s....

i dont mean to be blunt but did they even test their campaign before this game was released?

Pray that Skynet don't take controle of Computer IA tanks & Plane et chopper, & begin to exterminate human races...

If the I.A is so strong we allready losed (Terminator, Matrix)

[frederf 0]

Ignore him, he's French.

[twisted 127]

to get shot down within about 30 seconds of coming with 500 yds of a t-72...you've got to be kidding me.

if you are hanging around a t72 for 30 seconds you probably will get shot down.

i'd welcome the systems being more realistic, but then theres the consideration of using tactics like using ground more, popping up in heli to shoot missiles then go back to cover. the main air tactic is stay out of range (whether by hiding behind terrain in heli or going v high in jets).

1st of all, if you put your aircraft in harms way then it's more a fault of your tactics. but 2ndly, the AI could be a little less terminator like and the 'resilience' of parts of the aircraft tweaked/ increased.

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

Many ATGM missiles have the ability to target and atleast shoot down slow-flying helicopters, and in some systems, AFAIK, the capability is also for the main turret system. Not that much of a question of pure gunner capability since AFAIK most modern gun systems are slaved to the targetting computer, with manual backups on atleast some, though.

And yes, most tanks still have a high-caliber external AA MG... effectiveness on some targets is questionable, but...

Thats it yeah. Russian 125mm ATGM which are launched from the barrel of the tanks (T64, later T72s, T80 and T90) AT-8, AT-11 and AT-12 are laser guided and can in fact also trace and shoot down low-flying helicopters. (comparable to the Vikhr)

But this is no true AA capacity .... so not to be compared with SA8, SA9 or Tunguska missiles.

[max power 21]

SOBR[1st-I-R] @ May 23 2007,23:44)]Although I agree with plaintiff on his points you should not forget that the T-72 has a .50cal gun which is intented for AA use.

And the range of a .50cal is over 1.5 km ... so if that T72 can hit you, you are in trouble.

Plaintiff didn't make any points..