School shooting "phenomenom"

[blackdog~ 0]

There have been many recent school shootings, the latest taking place at VA Tech... reports are saying 33 were killed...

Quote[/b] ]BLACKSBURG, Va. -- A gunman opened fire in a Virginia Tech dorm and then, two hours later, shot up a classroom building across campus Monday, killing 32 people in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history. The gunman committed suicide, bringing the death toll to 33.

Students bitterly complained that there were no public-address announcements on campus after the first burst of gunfire. Many said the first word they received from the university was an e-mail more than two hours into the rampage -- around the time the gunman struck again.

Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.

"We had no reason to suspect any other incident was going to occur," he said.

He defended the university's handling of the tragedy, saying: "We can only make decisions based on the information you had on the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it."

Investigators offered no motive for the attack. The gunman's name was not immediately released, and it was not known if he was a student.

The shootings spread panic and confusion on campus. Witnesses reporting students jumping out the windows of a classroom building to escape the gunfire. SWAT team members with helmets, flak jackets and assault rifles swarmed over the campus. Students and faculty members carried out some of the wounded themselves, without waiting for ambulances to arrive. A student used his cell-phone camera to record the sound of shots echoing through the stone classroom building.

The massacre took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a coed dormitory that houses 895 people, and continuing at least two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building about a half-mile away, authorities said.

Two people were killed in a dormitory room, and 31 others were killed in the classroom building, including the gunman, police said.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," Steger said. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

Steger emphasized that the university closed off the dorm after the first attack and decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means to notify members of the university, but with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out. He said that before the e-mail went out, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms to notify them and sent people to knock on doors to spread the word.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum would not say how many weapons the gunman carried. But a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was incomplete, said that the gunman had two pistols and multiple clips of ammunition.

Flinchum said that some doors in the classroom building had been chained shut from the inside.

Police said they were still investigating the shooting at the dorm when they got word of gunfire at the classroom building.

Some students bitterly questioned why the gunman was able to strike a second time.

"What happened today, this was ridiculous," student Jason Piatt told CNN. "While they send out that e-mail, 20 more people got killed."

Students and Laura Wedin, a student programs manager at Virginia Tech, said the first notification they got of the shootings came in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m., more than two hours after the first shooting.

The e-mail had few details. It read: "A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating." The message warned students to be cautious and contact police about anything suspicious.

Student Maurice Hiller said he went to a 9 a.m. class two buildings away from the engineering building, and no warnings were coming over the outdoor public address system on campus at the time.

Everett Good, junior, said of the lack of warning: "I'm trying to figure that out. Someone's head is definitely going to roll over that."

Newsday.com

Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; 2006

Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; 2006

Virginia Tech shootings - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007

I have created this thread to share our emotions surrounding these incidents, and not just the recent one, as discussing a single shooting incident has been condemned.

[Messiah 2]

(sorry blackdog, my edit now makes your post look a little dumb - my aim was to post what you later edited into your original post so I considered the rest of my post to be drivel, hence removed it)

to make more sense, the question I posed was:

Are these shootings really a phenomenon per-say, or are they an event we are likely to see countless times again untill something is really done about it.

[blackdog~ 0]

There's no doubt in my mind that as long as there are sick people in the world who cannot deal with their own issues without resorting to violence, the 'phenomenon' of school shootings will continue... along with all the other kinds of shootings, stabbings, and what have you that occur on a daily basis around the world...

One has to ask themselves that if there was one responsible adult, a teacher perhaps, who was armed with a handgun (concealed, for self defense), could some have the bloodshed have been avoided?

Also, is it just me or does it sound as though the campus police/local officials not focus enough on catching the guy who they thought had fled?

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]One has to ask themselves that if there was one responsible adult, a teacher perhaps, who was armed with a handgun (concealed, for self defense), could some have the bloodshed have been avoided?

so something similiar to the undercover air marshals we now see post 9/11?

Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression (and when I say impression I mean the flow of teenage alcohol fueled sex romp movies like Van Wilder, American Pie etc) that most large universities had their own armed security?

Also, do you feel that columbine may have been a catalyst of sorts, showing that such events were possible to be played out, for those individuals who had always considered such acts, but never thought they would be able to go through with it? Are there any credible earlier examples of such shootings? My US school shooting time line begins with columbine as it stands.

[Donnervogel 0]

Quote[/b] ]One has to ask themselves that if there was one responsible adult, a teacher perhaps, who was armed with a handgun (concealed, for self defense), could some have the bloodshed have been avoided?

Well I would generally call it irresponsible when people (that do not work for security services) take weapons with them into public - and especially to a place of education. I just would feel really bad when I would think that there are people around with loaded weapons and even worse if they are concealed.

First off. If I allow weapons on campus for "self defense" I cannot possibly exclude potential killers from bringing their weapons. I know they can try anyway but there's at least a chance some security personel can turn him away should they find out he is armed and not let him pass into a classroom full of people.

Then again there's always the danger of "shortcut" reactions and I really don't want to be near an armed person that is in full rage because someone is making out with his girlfriend.

[blackdog~ 0]

I see what you mean when you are talking about kneejerk reactions... adrenaline is pumping, and there's not much to pulling the trigger and before you know it it's all over... we see it in Iraq quite often unfortunately... stupid argument for me to raise actually - I just copied it from another forum though to get the debating started

[da12thMonkey 1943]

There's no doubt in my mind that as long as there are sick people in the world who cannot deal with their own issues without resorting to violence, the 'phenomenon' of school shootings will continue... along with all the other kinds of shootings, stabbings, and what have you that occur on a daily basis around the world...

That's pretty much what my opinion on the matter is. I think this issue depends more on the quality of life the people responsible have at home and at work, school etc than who does or doesn't have access to firearms.

Quote[/b] ]One has to ask themselves that if there was one responsible adult, a teacher perhaps, who was armed with a handgun (concealed, for self defense), could some have the bloodshed have been avoided?

I wouldn't really agree with this. A school should be a safe environment for all people attending, hence there should be no reason for anyone carry any sort of firearm.

I believe that the only people in this world who should be willing and able to shoot another human being are those who have been trained for that purpose, whether it be a law-enforcement agency or military. I think that expecting civilians to protect the lives of others by taking someone else's life is disturbing, and promotes an idea that civilians need firearms, and that it is their duty to carry them.

I think every effort should be made to ensure the opposite case; where civilians feel that carrying a firearm is unnecessary through resolving issues related to my first point.

I personally don't think people should have access to firearms in private residences, vehicles or workplaces. We have very strict firearms laws here in the UK, I realise that ultimately they do little to stop those who are prepared to try hard enough to access a firearm but they do make me feel safer, and I feel that that contributes to me feeling that I have a good quality of life. I work in an environment where there are trained, armed individuals to protect the interests of the site I work at, and firearms are handled by members our workforce, but I don't feel safer there than I do elsewhere in the UK. I think this is because the threat of an event where lethal force would be required is minimised further by UK gun-laws.

However, I realise that there is strong opposition to stricter firearm controls in the UK and almost all countries, especially the USA. I think changes to gun laws should be considered, but with focus on the wider interests of the people within that nation, rather than knee-jerk reactions to tragic events like those that took place today.

[USSRsniper 0]

Adult having a gun, adults can go insane too.....  :rolleyes:And whats surprising this happend in USA, where everyone says we are best and etc, but doesnt seem safe. To me it looks like violence in US is rising among teen, i'm talking about all kinds of violence not only shootings.

[billybob2002 0]

I wouldn't really agree with this. A school should be a safe environment for all people attending, hence there should be no reason for anyone carry any sort of firearm.

Virgina Tech is an "gun-free zone." Restricting gun rights on campus doesn't automatically make the campus safer. The University of Utah allows concealed weapons on campus and I haven't heard of a mass shooting on their campus. Concealed weapons make campuses safer then, right? Or, are there other factors which make a campus safe?

I believe that the only people in this world who should be willing and able to shoot another human being are those who have been trained for that purpose, whether it be a law-enforcement agency or military. I think that expecting civilians to protect the lives of others by taking someone else's life is disturbing, and promotes an idea that civilians need firearms, and that it is their duty to carry them.

I personally don't think people should have access to firearms in private residences, vehicles or workplaces. We have very strict firearms laws here in the UK, I realise that ultimately they do little to stop those who are prepared to try hard enough to access a firearm but they do make me feel safer, and I feel that that contributes to me feeling that I have a good quality of life. I work in an environment where there are trained, armed individuals to protect the interests of the site I work at, and firearms are handled by members our workforce, but I don't feel safer there than I do elsewhere in the UK. I think this is because the threat of an event where lethal force would be required is minimised further by UK gun-laws.

Those are naive comments. I wonder if the American revolutionaries would had tarred and fathered you for that comment. Or, the French revolutionaries would had sent you to the guillotine. Do you get my point?

About the second paragraph, laws do not absolutely protect you because if they did, there would be no criminals. Some the most violent areas in the United States have the strictest gun laws in the nation. Having strict gun laws doesn't make society safe. Culture has a major impact on safety. Vermont considers having a concealed weapon without a permit an fundamental right and it isn't the Wild West there. Safer to be in Vermont than in Washington DC. But, why?

[CameronMcDonald 146]

I'm not a US citizen, but I agree with 12thdamonkey - it seems the US just has too many guns, and public access to them (including assault rifles, heck, people can have their own mortars if they want) is all too easy. I'll risk going out on a limb by asking that in today's society, is the "right to bear arms" outdated?

I always thought Michael Moore's (as much as I despise the biased leftist) comparison between gun-related deaths across countries such as the US, Canada and Australia thought-provoking; there's only so much that can be explained away along the lines of "oh, yeah, sure, the US has a bigger population." A crapload of people die from being shot in the US. I think something's wrong along those lines.

Just my .02 AUD, don't kill me. <winces>

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

An undeniable fact is that over here in Europe where weapon access legislation is in general more strict than in the USA in general, there are less incidents of shootings in educational institutions...

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Restricting gun rights on campus doesn't automatically make the campus safer...

Or, are there other factors which make a campus safe?

I think you're misinterpreting what I wrote, I never said that gun-restrictions make people any safer by default, I just said that a school should be the sort of place where guns are not needed if, as you put it "the factors which make a campus safe," are in place.

Quote[/b] ]About the second paragraph, laws do not absolutely protect you because if they did, there would be no criminals. Some the most violent areas in the United States have the strictest gun laws in the nation. Having strict gun laws doesn't make society safe.

Nor did I say that laws protect you absolutely, in fact I clearly stated that:

Quote[/b] ]I realise that ultimately they do little to stop those who are prepared to try hard enough to access a firearm

My point was that I feel that in the UK, laws that appear to help in minimising the possibility of mass shootings, such as rigorous firearms restrictions, create a greater illusion of safety from gun-crime, and safety in general. I went on to suggest that this feeling of general safety and well-being contributed to developing a culture where people are less likely to resort to violence due to a greater degree of satisfaction with their own lives, and is therefore safer for all.

As you can see, like you I agree that culture has a major impact on safety, and realise that gun-laws alone don't improve culture. Gun restrictions are less likely to make an impact in areas riddled with a greater number of significant social problems, which as I'm sure you agree are often the same areas that have substantially high levels of gun-crime.

As for my 'naive' comments, they're strictly my personal opinions as someone who doesn't see the attraction of owning a personal firearm. I see guns as tools, and I think the only people who really need these tools are the people who use them in their line of work.

[TheRocket 0]

The ammount of stupid people all over the world, its sad.

Why should innocent lifes be taken because some seriously f***ed up idiot cant control his or her emotions?

In the end, we will all die because of this, very sad!

ban guns and politicans, especially thoose who wage war!!!

war is outdated and boring!

[william1 0]

i just think that from the all posibles universes that exist i have had to born in the crazyest one

[blackdog~ 0]

I'm not a US citizen, but I agree with 12thdamonkey - it seems the US just has too many guns, and public access to them (including assault rifles, heck, people can have their own mortars if they want) is all too easy. I'll risk going out on a limb by asking that in today's society, is the "right to bear arms" outdated?

You make it sound like we (Americans) can just walk down the street into a gun store to buy rocket launcher on a whim or something...

To have these things legally you need to have special licenses which require extensive background checks... in a lot of states these licenses are not even available in this post 9/11 world... People who have these licenses/weapons are required to operate and store them with the utmost care otherwise the feds will end up taking them away. All of the people I know personally who have these kind of weapons take great care in protecting them from anyone who may wish to commit crimes with them...

As for why we have them? Not sure exactly why, but I think that we humans have had a passion for weaponry since the dawn of time...

[ralphwiggum 6]

if this thread ends up in discussion of gun control, it will be locked down. or if it goes the wrong way for that matter.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]if this thread ends up in discussion of gun control, it will be locked down. or if it goes the wrong way for that matter.

Please do not close this thread because of what I am about to say. I don’t want to be the one responsible for the lock.

However I must ask, in what possible way do you think this thread can possibly head that does not lead to the discussion of gun control? Whenever there is a mass killing where the murderer used a firearm inevitably people who dislike guns will start discussing the implementation of gun control.

I have a few questions and points I’d like to add (none of them offensive) but I will not speak them here as I’m sure I’m not allowed to express my opinion because of which side of the issue I take. The rules you seem to have set for this discussion are too slanted and really only allow one view point to be asserted.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

[shinRaiden 0]

So long as people are not stuffed in isolated individual cells, there remains the mathematical possibility and psychological probability that one human somewhere will inflict pain on another deliberately or accidentally. So the whole gun control debate is really about political slap fights over incompatible ideologies.

Anyhoo, there's been school shootings in Europe as well, and any number of psychologically similar incidents worldwide where people feel justified or obliged to vent their frustrations on others. Taking away people's toys or tools does nothing to fix the problem, it's only an attempt at non-intervening management of the problem.

There's also the factor of mental illness that could be considered. An excellent anecdotal case is one of a african-american teenager in Seattle a couple years ago. The individual's father abandoned the family, and the mother was unable to adequately care for him, let alone support his moderate to severe schizophrenia. The culture in which he was raised ensured that he was exposed to primarily irrational hatred and denial of personal responsibility.

For medically sane persons, they are to an extent able to cope with the disinformation, however for this individual, when he would have an episode of heightened mental illness his behavior would in effect be an impulsive scrambled manifestation of his prior absorbed experiences.

Lack of information about services available, and the legal complexity of police vs medical interventions and legal rights of the disabled to prevent against false commitments and abuses led to an unfortunate situation where the individual failed to receive proper treatment, resulting in an increase in instability and psychological swings. This culminated in the individual deliberately targeting and killing the first white man he saw while in a psychosis. It was tragic and unfortunate, because society was in one shot deprived of two (potentially) functioning individuals.

The American society is not unique however, you can find similar attitudes in most if not all societies. When people refuse to take personal responsibility, when unrestrained rage is considered respectable, and irrational emotive reactions dictate our course of actions, incidents such as this can only be considered normal.

Similarly, the arm-chair quarterbacking only exacerbates the problem because the whining observers engage in the same behavior as the perpetrators. "They should have done this, they should have done that, it's obvious this and that..." We don't live in a perfect world, and mistakes are made all the time that involve people's lives. I'm not arguing right or wrong, I'm pointing out that it does happen.

Sometimes, or more often than not, decisions are made on the fly in seconds on gut hunches or rumors. Even with the most sophisticated of systems, sometimes it is simply impossible to intervene. You can see what's happening, you know it's happening based on the best available local information, you can see how it's flawed, but there is absolutely nothing you can do except watch as it unfolds.

That's what's happened with the escalation of force we've seen since the WTO riots in Seattle in '99 subsequent to the Oklahoma City bombing. There are things worse than body count's, and everything no matter how small and silly has to be handled as a worst case situation. If they don't, someone will find something to complain about and hold an inquiry over, never mind the fact that there is nothing that they can do to bring back the dead they're arguing over.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]if this thread ends up in discussion of gun control, it will be locked down. or if it goes the wrong way for that matter.

   Please do not close this thread because of what I am about to say. I don’t want to be the one responsible for the lock.

 However I must ask, in what possible way do you think this thread can possibly head that does not lead to the discussion of gun control? Whenever there is a mass killing where the murderer used a firearm inevitably people who dislike guns will start discussing the implementation of gun control.

It goes both ways. I've been checking on gun forums and they seem to use this tragedy as an example to furthere their ideas, just as much as the other side does.

Quote[/b] ] I have a few questions and points I’d like to add (none of them offensive) but I will not speak them here as I’m sure I’m not allowed to express my opinion because of which side of the issue I take. The rules you seem to have set for this discussion are too slanted and really only allow one view point to be asserted.

It's not the side; it's the method of presentation and attitude. I've had enough of both sides on this issue and will deal with it.

[Ironsight 1]

if this thread ends up in discussion of gun control, it will be locked down. or if it goes the wrong way for that matter.

One moderator doesn't want to end it in a discussion regarding gun control, the other moderator wants it to become a debate.

How is it possible to turn this a debate without mentioning gun control? Rather confusing...

On a sidenote, I don't think such a topic should become a debate at all. Find it utterly respectless to the victims, but that's just me maybe...

[nephilim 0]

sorry i just have to laugh.

thats quite some very strong and bitter irony..

i wonder who theyre going to blame this time?

first its been marylin manson... then videogames...

whats next? beef jerky?? cheese poofs? bob dylan??

ok i could arrange with tokio hotel haha :P

but honestly..

i still cant belive that the people arent smart enough to have proper gun laws..

i mean in the us you can even buy semi automatic weapons in gun shops ... how crazy is that??

afaik in the us and in germany cops and hunters are allowed to have their weapons at home..

what was with erfurt back then? the kids father was a hunter...

so i wonder.. would that have happend in the same way if the guns were locked somewhere in a special office ?

[CsonkaPityu 0]

This is probably more of a social problem. If the guy at virginia tech was also a nerd who went "Jock Hunting" (queens english: Chav Hunting) then i think maybe jocks should stop picking on the smaller kids, stuffing them in lockers, etc. American kids are usually assholes to eachother*... the constant need of being cool and fitting in...

*if you wanna see an example of just how far removed americans are from the rest of the world just look at Iraq, where US soldiers behave all funny like "under stress". (tons of youtube vids better then any insurgent propaganda)

[SlipperyJim 0]

if this thread ends up in discussion of gun control, it will be locked down.

Wow, with all due respect you shouldn't use your moderator powers to control a political discussion when it is being totally civil.

I wasn't aware the BIS forums were for conservatives only

Quote[/b] ]Topics should still be related in some way, for example: military, politics, science and other military games.

[Ironsight 1]

This is probably more of a social problem. If the guy at virginia tech was also a nerd who went "Jock Hunting" (queens english: Chav Hunting) then i think maybe jocks should stop picking on the smaller kids, stuffing them in lockers, etc. American kids are usually assholes to eachother*... the constant need of being cool and fitting in...

No offense but you just described Highschool. College is nothing like this. Generally at college everybody really minds his own business. It's totally not like those highschool stereotypes.

[Messiah 2]

sorry i just have to laugh.

thats quite some very strong and bitter irony..

i wonder who theyre going to blame this time?

first its been marylin manson... then videogames...

whats next? beef jerky?? cheese poofs? bob dylan??

ok i could arrange with tokio hotel haha :P

but honestly..

i still cant belive that the people arent smart enough to have proper gun laws..

i mean in the us you can even buy semi automatic weapons in gun shops ... how crazy is that??

afaik in the us and in germany cops and hunters are allowed to have their weapons at home..

what was with erfurt back then? the kids father was a hunter...

so i wonder.. would that have happend in the same way if the guns were locked somewhere in a special office ?

Quote[/b] ]i still cant belive that the people arent smart enough to have proper gun laws..

i mean in the us you can even buy semi automatic weapons in gun shops ... how crazy is that??

afaik in the us and in germany cops and hunters are allowed to have their weapons at home..

what was with erfurt back then? the kids father was a hunter...

so i wonder.. would that have happend in the same way if the guns were locked somewhere in a special office ?

In denmark the national guard keep their personal weapons at home, as do most of the scandinavian forces - it's never tempted my two uncles to mass murder though - access to guns is a moot point, given that Canada has the same number of registered fire arms as the US, but far far fewer deaths as a result of gun crime... its quite obviously to do with mentality of the society that possess them.

school shootings again are not restricted to gun totting out of control countries either (please note my sarcasm in that statement). Lets recall that the Dumblane Massacre preceeded the current american school shooting phenomenon, and in a country with one of the strictest gun laws.

How about the other side of the coin though. Surely the people who perpetrate these crimes don't suddenly wake up and think "I'll go shoot my classmates today". Would it not be prudent to explore and consider the idea that there is a catalyst involved in this sort of event, be it emotional/psychological problems, or a problem with social interacting and a regime of bullying no less? Wasn't this the case with Columbine? The two persons there were 'outcasts' from their school and wanted revenge.