School shooting "phenomenom"

[crashdome 2]

CrashDome.

Even if I were allowed to own any kind of gun here in Finland.

I wouldn't want to.

Do you want to know why?

Because I know that I would only put myself into danger if I carried a weapon. As I am very reluctant to harm other people, the weapon could serve no purpose for me, other than making myself a target. That is the reason I will never carry a gun with me.

War would be an exception, I am trained to use an assault rifle and for sure I could use it against someone who is directly threatening our nation. But in this civilian life, no way.

No guns in my life, no matter how freely we are allowed to have guns.

This is exactly what I mean. These are factless opinions based on perpetuated media and a single instance (yourself).

You have not proven any of these:

Quote[/b] ]That is what I mean. In general, the people in the U.S. want to have guns. I don't. We have the police, we have the Defence Forces, that is all we need to protect ourselves. So, in general the people in Finland do not want guns into their lifes.

Where is your data? AFAIK the number of licensed gun owners versus number of non-gun owners is between 1% AND 3% by population. [Edit]: and a portion of these are law enforcement or military personnel.:[/Edit]  This argument is extremely insulting to me.

How do you know that all of Finland thinks as you? You might be surprised that the statistics might be the same...

[EDIT] HAHAHAA:

Quote[/b] ]In Finland there are over two million licensed firearms (which is more per capita than in the US)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

Quote[/b] ]It is also question of mentality. Are you an attacker or a defender? Judging the U.S. and its citizens from the factual news I have read during my life (violently conquer large part of North America, kill native inhabitants etc...), I can only say that the U.S. and its citizens are more attackers than defenders.

Do not bring up history of unrelated events. It has no basis and America is not the only nation to have a history of this nature. Again, simply more insults.

Quote[/b] ]

What drugs are you on?

CrashDome. Please do not go down to personal attacks. My opinions have formed during a long time and I assure you I don't make hasty judgements, quite the opposite. Do not see my words as an insult towards U.S. or any of its citizens as that is certainly not my intention.

If it isn't your intention, than don't insult me... because I AM a citizen of the US and all of your FALSE stereotypes apply to me.

[Heatseeker 0]

I cant imagine raising a child, seeing it grow and receive the news that his life was taken in a college/school shooting, just think about this for a minute.

So my first reaction to this whole event is of compassion to the victims and their relatives to who i send my deepest condolences.

My second reaction is of action, this sort of event isnt tolerable in a civilised society and serious action should be taken to prevent events like this frm happening in the future.

Gun control!

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]It is also question of mentality. Are you an attacker or a defender? Judging the U.S. and its citizens from the factual news I have read during my life (violently conquer large part of North America, kill native inhabitants etc...), I can only say that the U.S. and its citizens are more attackers than defenders.

Do not bring up history of unrelated events. It has no basis and America is not the only nation to have a history of this nature. Again, simply more insults.

Quote[/b] ]

What drugs are you on?

CrashDome. Please do not go down to personal attacks. My opinions have formed during a long time and I assure you I don't make hasty judgements, quite the opposite. Do not see my words as an insult towards U.S. or any of its citizens as that is certainly not my intention.

If it isn't your intention, than don't insult me... because I AM a citizen of the US and all of your FALSE stereotypes apply to me.

Those are not insults.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Of course they would have snapped. But instead of killing 30 people, they would have knocked down a couple instead.

Do you think that is a 'small detail?'

Or they would have built a bomb, and blown up 129 people like someone did in Iraq with a suicide bomb recently.

In that case you should allow bombs, before they start using nuclear stuff heh...

Really, giving people guns because they may use bombs otherwise is a rather strange argument. People shouldnt be armed in the first place.

(And yeah, i know, the world isnt perfect, but i dont see the point in allowing people to have weapons. You may be able to use it to defend yourself but you also give the attacker a dangerous weapon. And to be honest i prefer someone running after me with a knife then someone who shoots at me...)

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Of course they would have snapped. But instead of killing 30 people, they would have knocked down a couple instead.

Do you think that is a 'small detail?'

Or they would have built a bomb, and blown up 129 people like someone did in Iraq with a suicide bomb recently.

If you want to compare the culture of the current Iraq with the US. Be my guest. I just feel no urge to discuss anything of relevance with you, as it would be a waste of my time.

[fardwark 0]

If it isn't your intention, than don't insult me... because I AM a citizen of the US and all of your FALSE stereotypes apply to me.

It is not a false stereotype to say that american culture is very violence-centric, especially with pop culture the way it is. By observing the videogames and movies produced in the US, and considering the rating system and the censoring by the FCC etc., it becomes quite clear that violence is seen as more appropriate than the (semi-)naked human form and sexual behaviour.

This is actually a bigger problem than gun-availability, lots of people own guns here in Sweden too, but we have had zero school shootings. It comes down to mentality. In Sweden, gun ownership by people that aren't tied to guns through profession or hobby (law enforcement, hunters, competition-shooters) is extremely low, eventhough anybody that passes the license demands is allowed to own firearms.

edit

If you want to compare the culture of the current Iraq with the US. Be my guest. I just feel no urge to discuss anything of relevance with you, as it would be a waste of my time.

It was an example, picked because it happened recently. We could use Timothy McVeigh as an example instead if it makes you feel better. Pre-meditated acts of violence will occur regardless of gun-availability, and they can be potentially as horrible as shooting-sprees (or worse).

[fardwark 0]

In that case you should allow bombs, before they start using nuclear stuff heh...

Really, giving people guns because they may use bombs otherwise is a rather strange argument. People shouldnt be armed in the first place.

(And yeah, i know, the world isnt perfect, but i dont see the point in allowing people to have weapons. You may be able to use it to defend yourself but you also give the attacker a dangerous weapon. And to be honest i prefer someone running after me with a knife then someone who shoots at me...)

I'm not advocating gun ownership (quite the opposite), I was trying to point out that school massacres aren't caused by gun availability.

[crashdome 2]

Those are not insults.

They are to me.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

If it isn't your intention, than don't insult me... because I AM a citizen of the US and all of your FALSE stereotypes apply to me.

It is not a false stereotype to say that american culture is very violence-centric, especially with pop culture the way it is. By observing the videogames and movies produced in the US, and considering the rating system and the censoring by the FCC etc., it becomes quite clear that violence is seen as more appropriate than the (semi-)naked human form and sexual behaviour.

This is actually a bigger problem than gun-availability, lots of people own guns here in Sweden too, but we have had zero school shootings. It comes down to mentality. In Sweden, gun ownership by people that aren't tied to guns through profession or hobby (law enforcement, hunters, competition-shooters) is extremely low, eventhough anybody that passes the license demands is allowed to own firearms.

edit

If you want to compare the culture of the current Iraq with the US. Be my guest. I just feel no urge to discuss anything of relevance with you, as it would be a waste of my time.

It was an example, picked because it happened recently. We could use Timothy McVeigh as an example instead if it makes you feel better. Pre-meditated acts of violence will occur regardless of gun-availability, and they can be potentially as horrible as shooting-sprees (or worse).

The American public does puzzle me a bit... They are pro guns, but are very defensive when it comes to nudity, violence in games etc. Even anti-religionists are seen as the anti-christ by a large part of their public.

Edit (as you edited ya post while I wrote mine):

Yea, there are other examples, of course. But if you read my previous replies, I don't think gun-control alone is the solution at all. But it IS part of it.

I just find it worrying that the people that seems to worry the most about these 'shootouts' is the non-american people on these boards. I really am worried about this culture of violence that has been in the states the past 20-25 years and is building up yearly.

[karantan 0]

My second reaction is of action, this sort of event isnt tolerable in a civilised society and serious action should be taken to prevent events like this frm happening in the future.

Gun control!

IMHO this would not change/improve much. Why? Because if some under-the-daily-life-pressure-snapped lunatic decide to go on a fireing rampage, he'll gain the weapons on this (legal) or other (illegal) way, no problems here, especially not in America.

Some quick 'banning cure' never worked, quite the oposite, and this problem is much wider (as also fardwark is stating), and it involves a broad spectre of some civilian society's life; it's like an illness of the (US) society, even a rottening if you want.

EDIT: Eh, I hope that this debate will not turn into critique of the US society and its values, so I'll stop, because it's really nothing much to say about this problem, but it's just good to know and to understand that this problem is part of something bigger (some bigger problem? ).

[NeMeSiS 11]

In that case you should allow bombs, before they start using nuclear stuff heh...

Really, giving people guns because they may use bombs otherwise is a rather strange argument. People shouldnt be armed in the first place.

(And yeah, i know, the world isnt perfect, but i dont see the point in allowing people to have weapons. You may be able to use it to defend yourself but you also give the attacker a dangerous weapon. And to be honest i prefer someone running after me with a knife then someone who shoots at me...)

I'm not advocating gun ownership (quite the opposite), I was trying to point out that school massacres aren't caused by gun availability.

Indeed they arent, but it greatly increases the chance of more casualties. (After all, you cant run away from a bullet)

Heatseeker/karentan raised an interesting question about it. When looking at the dutch soft-drugs laws it would seem better to allow it within certain laws so it gives to goverment some control about it. But IMO the fact that people even WANT a gun for something like self-defence it totally ridiculous. The police should be the only ones who are allowed to use (limited-)violence to protect themselves/others from possible harm*. (For obvious reasons..  )

*Yeah, ofcourse, the moment that someone wants to stab you with a knife and you cant flee so you hit him in the face with a shovel its OK. But the moment you feel the need for some precautions (so when not under direct treath) like guns there is something wrong with the whole country. Be it the amount criminality-rate or just the society in general.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

My second reaction is of action, this sort of event isnt tolerable in a civilised society and serious action should be taken to prevent events like this frm happening in the future.

Gun control!

IMHO this would not change/improve much. Why? Because if some under-the-daily-life-pressure-snapped lunatic decide to go on a fireing rampage, he'll gain the weapons on this (legal) or other (illegal) way, no problems here, especially not in America.

Some quick 'banning cure' never worked, quite the oposite, and this problem is much wider (as also fardwark is stating), and it involves a broad spectre of some civilian society's life; it's like an illness of the (US) society, even a rottening if you want.

The reason why this particular student went on this rage-parade was (according to the media) because his ex-gf had been cheating on him.

Rage-impulses like this can very well be just that - a sudden impulse. If people have weapons at their disposal, their sudden rage inflects alot more collateral damage. He was probably in a shock condition when he realised he had killed the first two persons and finds himself in a situation two hours later with two guns and no future infront of him. He decides to commit suicide and wants to take more with him into death.

If he could only find a knife, he would probably only have inflicted damage on his ex gf, but no others. It would still be a terrible thing but much less people would have been killed.

Please be aware that this is simply guessing.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Not knowing wether the stereotype of "there's a gun in every house in America" is true or not, but betting that there are alot more guns in non-law-enforcement or military hands in the US than in Europe, I find it strange that there was no sooner armed response towards the initial killing, by whatever person around, towards the initial killer... This situation was severely mishandled by those responsible for security of the entire facility... And that mishandling cost the lives of 30 persons that needed not have died, and that is just plain sad... because "flipping out" may very well be not preventable a first time around, but allowing anybody who did that to strike a second time, with far more devastating consequences... is incomprehensible, just incomprehensible...

[karantan 0]

The reason why this particular student went on this rage-parade was (according to the media) because his ex-gf had been cheating on him.

Rage-impulses like this can very well be just that - a sudden impulse. If people have weapons at their disposal, their sudden rage inflects alot more collateral damage. He was probably in a shock condition when he realised he had killed the first two persons and finds himself in a situation two hours later with two guns and no future infront of him. He decides to commit suicide and wants to take more with him into death.

If he could only find a knife, he would probably only have inflicted damage on his ex gf, but no others. It would still be a terrible thing but much less people would have been killed.

Please be aware that this is simply guessing.

Ok, this crime might be impulsive, and a gun control or ban or whatever would maybe prevent it to gain such a proportions (thou I doubt it, I think there would be still a decent 'body count' even if a cold weapon would be used), but I think this case is an exception; most of such crimes are even meticulously planned and without any real motives e.g. the only motive is to shoot and kill. Why they're doing it? Someone likes the thrill of it, someone likes the guns too much, someone likes to kill, someone is 'just' deranged, someone all of this and more ...

But all these and such crimes are done by a lunatics; they must be crazy, for me there's no other explanation. Just remember on those two snipers which had picked a random victim and kill it. And they've done this for days, for weeks ... No person sain enough does acts like this.

[ebud 18]

But all these and such crimes are done by a lunatics; they must be crazy, for me there's no other explanation. Just remember on those two snipers which had picked a random victim and kill it. And they've done this for days, for weeks ... No person sain enough does acts like this.

Gun control laws could be much more strict, but you could do what they did with a hunting rifle, and it would NEVER come to the point where they take those away here. Handguns? Sure, please do. I had one growing up for target shooting along with all our other hunting rifles, but those damn handguns are more trouble than they are worth. I'm all for the right to own guns, but when people like this guy pull this crap, it's just not worth it. But at this stage, even if they decided to take away every gun in the country it would take decades to do. Heck, I have an uncle who should have been born 150 years ago who has several SKSs packed in grease, boxed and buried out in his woods just in case they do take all his other rifles away someday. He's just an old country farmer, no a crazy bone in his body unless you think wanting to have a rifle or two on the farm is crazy, but I'm sure he's not the only one with that idea. This is just a gun-happy society based on our history.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

But all these and such crimes are done by a lunatics; they must be crazy, for me there's no other explanation. Just remember on those two snipers which had picked a random victim and kill it. And they've done this for days, for weeks ... No person sain enough does acts like this.

Gun control laws could be much more strict, but you could do what they did with a hunting rifle, and it would NEVER come to the point where they take those away here. Handguns? Sure, please do. I had one growing up for target shooting along with all our other hunting rifles, but those damn handguns are more trouble than they are worth. I'm all for the right to own guns, but when people like this guy pull this crap, it's just not worth it. But at this stage, even if they decided to take away every gun in the country it would take decades to do. Heck, I have an uncle who should have been born 150 years ago who has several SKSs packed in grease, boxed and buried out in his woods just in case they do take all his other rifles away someday. He's just an old country farmer, no a crazy bone in his body unless you think wanting to have a rifle or two on the farm is crazy, but I'm sure he's not the only one with that idea. This is just a gun-happy society based on our history.

Gunhappy people tend to frighten me

[jtec 0]

Guns will never be banned in USA due to the constitution. The police were at fault and should be held responsible for theiir lack of action. Americans contradict themselfs when it comes to reasons why they are armed to the teeth in the first place.

[ebud 18]

Oh come on. When have you ever heard of the card carrying NRA gun collector going on a shooting spree? The idea of them may scare you, but the reality is quite different. The majority of the handgun deaths where I live now are just like they were where I lived in Chicago, gang vs gang violence. The high murder rate with handguns would be just as big in any other country if they had the hoods like we do here. Just my opinion, but I now live in Orlando and 95% of all murders in this town of over 3 million happen pretty much within a 3-4 block area of the hood. Edit: And that is based on a newspaper article here.

[TheRocket 0]

Imagine if all money that goes for war and making weapons would instead go to third-world countries so they also can help in reasearching misc(medicine and whatnot) !

Think of all the third-world countries, the extra (and needed) manpower and facilities for research, wow!

[JdB 151]

Oh come on. When have you ever heard of the card carrying NRA gun collector going on a shooting spree?

Aquiring firearms however, even illegal ones is alot easier in a country where firearms are abundant. It's much easier for someone to steal them and sell them illegally.

In a country where all firearms are prohibited with the exception of law enforcement and military purposes, or highly regulated, one would need to rob a police station or army base, or know exactly the right contacts to aquire firearms. Most people that do buy illegal firearms have some kind of (organised) criminal history (or future).

Quote[/b] ]Imagine if all money that goes for war and making weapons would instead go to third-world countries so they also can help in reasearching misc(medicine and whatnot) !

Think of all the third-world countries, the extra (and needed) manpower and facilities for research, wow!

Which those third-world countries would then be using to research and/or aquire better weapons and duke it out with their neighboring countries, or opposing ethnic group(s). Africa would not turn into the happy place once people have some money, 90% of the countries in Africa have goverments that are corrupt and would use the money for their own good (luxury, oppresion or war).

It's just a dream, it will never happen, and neither will the "Right to bear arms" ever be undone, even though there are no British troops in Canada anymore, and the Commies are not waiting for an opportunity to jump across the pond only to be destroyed by the Great American Militia.

Guns serve no purpose to law-abiding citizens other than entertainment, law-enforcement and war, of which war is not applicable to the mainland US.

[Ironsight 1]

Oh come on. When have you ever heard of the card carrying NRA gun collector going on a shooting spree?

Aquiring firearms however, even illegal ones is alot easier in a country where firearms are abundant. It's much easier for someone to steal them and sell them illegally.

In a country where all firearms are prohibited with the exception of law enforcement and military purposes, or highly regulated, one would need to rob a police station or army base, or know exactly the right contacts to aquire firearms. Most people that do buy illegal firearms have some kind of (organised) criminal history (or future).

Know an example of 10 years ago in the Netherlands when a group of youngsters impulsively decided to rob a gas station. First they stole an Uzi from an Army dump and then they robbed the station killing the shop attendent.

When you really want, it's always possible to get a gun. Heck give me an hour to go to Rotterdam and I will get you a gun...

[BlackScorpion 0]

Just as a sidenote, Bush is just about to give a speech in Virginia... we'll see if anything gets changed...

[ebud 18]

Aquiring firearms however, even illegal ones is alot easier in a country where firearms are abundant. It's much easier for someone to steal them and sell them illegally.

In a country where all firearms are prohibited with the exception of law enforcement and military purposes, or highly regulated, one would need to rob a police station or army base, or know exactly the right contacts to aquire firearms. Most people that do buy illegal firearms have some kind of (organised) criminal history (or future).

All true, but how does that account for the facts that have been tossed out here for other countries that have as high or higher gun ownership % ?

Again, the majority of gun violence is centered around certain areas and certain types of individuals. The shooting sprees like this one are very rare, and not typical of the gun crime that occurs here. One way to help solve this would be to raise the prices on weapons drastically. Getting rid of them is not a realistic option. Nice, but not realistic.

[karantan 0]

But all these and such crimes are done by a lunatics; they must be crazy, for me there's no other explanation. Just remember on those two snipers which had picked a random victim and kill it. And they've done this for days, for weeks ... No person sain enough does acts like this.

Gun control laws could be much more strict, but you could do what they did with a hunting rifle, and it would NEVER come to the point where they take those away here. Handguns? Sure, please do. I had one growing up for target shooting along with all our other hunting rifles, but those damn handguns are more trouble than they are worth. I'm all for the right to own guns, but when people like this guy pull this crap, it's just not worth it. But at this stage, even if they decided to take away every gun in the country it would take decades to do. Heck, I have an uncle who should have been born 150 years ago who has several SKSs packed in grease, boxed and buried out in his woods just in case they do take all his other rifles away someday. He's just an old country farmer, no a crazy bone in his body unless you think wanting to have a rifle or two on the farm is crazy, but I'm sure he's not the only one with that idea. This is just a gun-happy society based on our history.

Firstly, I'm talking about the persons as a lunatics which has commited these and such crimes, not about the every gun owner in America. Unless,,,your sub-conscious is telling you some different story from mine, a story which is native to the americans, and their love and passion towards the personal weapons. But then this are your personal fears, being all of you american weapon owners a potential lunatics, not my thouths. And having and storing the weapons on such way like your uncle does,,,yes, for some even such doing is not quite sain.

Secondly, as I already said, more strict gun control cannot and will not prevent those horrible massacres. As I said, these crimes are mostly planned, therefore prepared, also regarding gaining the 'tools' for it (the weapons). You as the americans should ask yourself some other question; why 99% of such crimes are commited in the US? From here-on a dozens of sub-questions, equally important can be rised.

Thirdly and finally, I'm kinda proud that my writings about this seems like a crap to someone from the US. Thanks, I needed  that.

[ebud 18]

Haha, no I don't have any passion for personal weapons. I had fun shooting them growing up in the country, but I have never personally owned one or shot one in a good ten years, so don't try to paint me as gun carrying lunatic or even try to gauge my thoughts on the subject. You can judge what I write just fine.

I wasn't pointing out that I subcouncsiously fear all gun owners are dangerous, where you got that from I don't know. I was using your quote to speak in general broad terms as what I wrote spoke to your quote for about 2 words then I tended to ramble off on a tangent.

I agree it's a bigger issue than just gun control, I pointed that out in that and another post. It's mainly economical, "usually" handguns are used here for either robbery or murder, and most of those are drug or gang related.

And no your comment doesn't bother me, I agree with the majority of what you write about the subject.