Taking Cover

[benreeper 0]

Yeah you're right PlayeR87, ArmA sucks and can't do anything right!

Actually I would try Vegas, but just like when OFP came out, I have ZERO time to play any other games now. That's the real problem with ArmA: it won't ALLOW you to play anything else. It wants, no demands, all of your time.

--Ben

[froggyluv 2136]

I've never been into console shooters but I did pick up a copy of Vegas while waiting for ArmA mainly just to try out my jazzy new hardware. All-in all, it's a basic shooter but the cover system while arcadish is actually quite satisfying. Played it for about a week then went back to OFP mods until I could get a copy of Arma. I like the idea of maybe a 'shift+up/down' adjusting players height as opposed to the prerendered positions of Vegas. Honestly theres nothing wrong with admiring a feature of another game as long as it could be modified enough to keep OFP-OFP'ish.

[smellyjelly 0]

I like the idea of maybe a 'shift+up/down' adjusting players height as opposed to the prerendered positions of Vegas.

I could live with that.  

[Allenn 0]

I thought crowding cover was frowned upon in most armies?

[frederf 0]

Taking cover against the wall need not switch u to third person view at all, keep first person mode, but imo having ur back to the wall makes urban combat easier and better

in early war over iraq an Australian SASR operative get KIA because bullet hit a wall and ricochet into his head, hum....... not so good for this single reason

I believe USMC men are taught to maintain 16 inches between their body and hard cover when walking next to wall cover for just that reason.

[Maddmatt 1]

The cover system in R6 Vegas is completely stupid. You can see around a corner or over an object without actually exposing any part of your body. That is just completely retarded. In MP, I hid behind a low broken wall and watched a hallway. When a guy came running towards me I could see him, but he couldn't see me. I quickly popped up and blasted him with a shotgun. He had no chance.

How could anyone claim that to be realistic? It was just another tool Ubisoft used to destroy the realistic R6 games - although Lockdown already did most of the damage. Now R6 is just another arcade shooter - one which allows you to see enemies while remaining invisible.

The system in Vietcong was good though, it let you peek over cover pretty well without the 3rd person cheat.

[AWDrift 0]

I think the game could use some type of cover system, especially for the A.I. IMO it doesn't matter how accurate the models are or the weapons. When you have soldiers lying in the middle of a city street during a firefight the realism is killed right then and there.

[memnoch 0]

Would it not be cool if ya could put ur back to a wall and take cover like in ghost recon and rainbow 6?

i think it would really add to the firefights

Then why don't you just stand with your back to a wall? You can do that now.

Small cover system video (YouTube)

Another video (much longer which shows the use of cover pretty well)

(edit: even when i just watch the vids, i think ... how brilliant ... they somehow just got it absolutely 100% right:)

What I see here is that your view goes to third person. Can you do that in real life, i.e. have an out of body experience. You can stand with your back to a wall in ArmA now and lean around corners to reduce exposure right now. And if you are on a server which allows it you can go to 3rd person also, although I prefer servers that don't as it feels a little like cheating somehow as you can see around and over obstacles easily. I don't see how that would benefit us nor perhaps even bring anything new.

EDIT: A further thought, standing behind a fence and peeking out is not such a good idea anyway as I'll just shoot through the fence. I would guess that some of the weaponry in ArmA is a tad more powerful than the weapons employed in R6.

I thought crowding cover was frowned upon in most armies?

I did quick Google search on this as I wasn't sure what you meant. If I was leaning around a wall, close to it with my rifle barrel sticking out, someone right on the other side could grab in and wrench it away from me. Or just shoot it out of my hand. Either way I'd be in real trouble.

[kernriver 4]

As someone else said, you can't see around the corner without sticking your head out.

[Baff1 0]

In my opinion, all this hugging walls and shooting over cover as seen in R6: Vegas (a rape of the franchise, I might add) takes control away from the player - you're no longer there in person, you just control some muppet. Suspension of disbelief goes POOF! in a big way. If it was implented as in Vietcong then we're talking, that felt very natural to me.

This wise post mirrors my own sentiments. Look to Vietcong 2 for a good example of a fluid cover system.

I tried R6 Vegas on a friends X-box. An excellent game.

I tried using the cover system, but much to my friends chagrin, didn't enjoy it. I spent the entire game side strafing instead and missing the ability to lean.

The cover system is nice but it is for a different type of game and not one I'm not intrested in buying.

Sub Counterstrike console nonsense.

[teioh 0]

this suggestion is completely ridiculous

everyone knows enemies don't use cover in real life, they go lay prone in the middle of the street.

Cover in this game is needed not so much for the player but the AI. This would change urban combat completely and I mean COMPLETELY, for the better too. Seeing the way the current AI tries to fight it's way down a street is pretty sad.

For the player, you wouldn't be able to implement this without 3rd person for the reason that someone stated before about feeling. With 3rd person comes unfair viewing angles and being able to see around corners.

For the AI, they don't have that "feeling", they know when they are right up against a wall, tree, car ect and you would be able to program them to have to peak around a corner to identify targets.

[MATRA 0]

Non-suprisingly ex-RS developers are creating their own game that will bring realism as opposed to the Hollywood fest that the Rainbow Six series has become.

Good news, what game are they creating? Any info on that?

Ontopic:

The cover Idea isnt that bad, as long as we can choose 1st person view, and turn the 3rt person view server options.

But now that we finaly( without community addons) have the lean I dont see much use for it.

[memnoch 0]

everyone knows enemies don't use cover in real life, they go lay prone in the middle of the street.

I hope this was written with tongue firmly in cheek.

[Dallas 9]

This Vegas game sounds very cool, can you fly Hellicopters, jets, drive tanks, boats, skydive, swim and ride motorcycles on 400km^2 too?

You can already lean your back against a wall in ArmA and use cover, lean out and shoot. But ArmA isn't RSV or Splinter Cell, where you can press a key and 'cover toggle' your character. In ArmA you gotta do the work yourselves.

[teioh 0]

everyone knows enemies don't use cover in real life, they go lay prone in the middle of the street.

I hope this was written with tongue firmly in cheek.

as firm as you can get

my point was that the AI in this game esp in urban combat likes to go prone in the middle of the street. In Vegas, the AI also uses cover and they use it really well. Adding that to ArmA would be a great change.

[maxqubit 1]

This Vegas game sounds very cool, can you fly Hellicopters, jets, drive tanks, boats, skydive, swim and ride motorcycles on 400km^2 too?

Sub standard fanboyism

[Maddmatt 1]

This Vegas game sounds very cool, can you fly Hellicopters, jets, drive tanks, boats, skydive, swim and ride motorcycles on 400km^2 too?

Sub standard fanboyism

Nope, he's just mocking R6 Vegas .

The R6V cover system isn't realistic at all - mainly due to the 3rd person view. Vietcong did cover well, as some people pointed out.

The AI in ArmA do use cover, but not all that well. They need to use it better, and they should be able to lean around a corner.

[NeMeSiS 11]

<s>and they should be able to lean around a corner.</s>

They should be able to detect corners first, so they dont run suicidally into streets (the only things thats wrong with the AI IMO)

But its probably very hard to do this, at least i have absolutely no idea

[Maddmatt 1]

<s>and they should be able to lean around a corner.</s>

They should be able to detect corners first, so they dont run suicidally into streets (the only things thats wrong with the AI IMO)

Yea I know . I'm sure we will see more AI tweaks in future patches, though if the AI learn to use cover and corners properly it's going to make the game even harder .

We'll just have to wait and see.

[maxqubit 1]

This Vegas game sounds very cool, can you fly Hellicopters, jets, drive tanks, boats, skydive, swim and ride motorcycles on 400km^2 too?

Sub standard fanboyism

Nope, he's just mocking R6 Vegas :p .

Talking about e.g. tanks in comparison to Vegas is sub standard in my book.

Stick to solid arguments or shut the **** up!

[Maddmatt 1]

...

Just wandering, you still believe that the R6V cover system should be in ArmA or has your opinion changed?

I think any cover system should stick to first person to prevent seeing anything that you shouldn't be able to see.

[paragraphic l 2]

In the second example vid an enemy was shot even though it was using the same cover system as the player, the players head was sticking out most of the time btw. But that's a bit offtopic

In ArmA I would love to see the AI more interacting with buildings, today I wanted to check some good OPFOR vs BLUFOR in Ortego, But it ended up in a row of dead guys down both sides of the main road, the teams have to interact with each other more so they don't go the same way as the first eliminated team, the team they had to see dieing in the front of their feet!

Their are a lot of great cover additions that could see the day-light in ArmA but I'd rather see the AI improvements first

But after that I'd love to see the abbility to have your own height set when crouched AND maybe even to raise your weapon above objects, but this is something for lone-wolf gameplay.

I guess someone who play's PvP online would have some more suggestions for this, I play co-op constantly and I'd rather see the AI being able to do what I allready can do instead of having more abilities added that players use but AI don't

[Baff1 0]

I have to say I would like to see the AI use FIBUA tactics.

Perhaps AI tracks could be coded into urban maps so they have invisible roads to follow in the same way as Unreal's AI do.

Like how aircraft on runways all take off. Detect a main road, and do a sweep in FIBUA mode.

That would be a cover system I want to see.

[Second 0]

They should be able to detect corners first, so they dont run suicidally into streets (the only things thats wrong with the AI IMO)

But its probably very hard to do this, at least i have absolutely no idea

Have you noticed that AI behaves differently in buildings... This caught my eye: When moving inside building they don't rush, but steadily walk and they favor to stand and not to go prone, could this be tweaked so that AI behaves in streets just like in building? Or am i halusinating

[NeMeSiS 11]

Its probably because they are walking on a roadway lod (or whatever they are called), there is nothing in the .fsm's about different behaviour when they are inside a building (AFAIK).