gun recoil

[jphilapy 0]

A friend of mine brought up an issue regarding arma, so I told him I would post this here for him:

When firing guns the recoil sent the gun sight up to the *right* every time. I thought that when one fired a weapon the recoil sent the gun upward, not to the side. Is this a bug? Further more if u study (pay very close attension) to the firing of the weapons ie. M4 and the m4-20, the gun sight will make little circular motions. I realy think the gun should be firing up and down not to the right. I think if you also adjust the recoil to fall back on center fast would help.

Thanks,

Jeff

[weegee_101 0]

Have you ever fired a rifle? The recoil goes backwards... not up or down. The movement of the gun has to do with how you and your body reacts to the recoil, which isn't always straight up. Often if you're right handed its up and to the right... at least for me, and I've shot competition for close to 10 years now.

[Radic 0]

Sort of a tangent to this topic, but:

IRL I have fired:  

FN/FAL (ie. SLR - Aussie Army rifle)

M1 Carbine

M1 Garand

M14

Ruger Mini 14 (open and with scope)

Enfield .303

CAR15

Colt M1911 Pistol

.22 target pistol

.38 Revolver (don't know what type - medium length barrel)

And IMO recoil in ArmA is too great / overemphasised - particularly when using scopes / aimpoint sights - it is UNREALISTICALLY ridiculously extreme AND done the wrong way round - ie. when you fire using the cursor sight - ie. not selecting optic - THEN each shot should result in a fairly huge jump of the sight reticle/cursor but it stays pretty much rock solid (for this reason in ArmA I can kill way many more enemies WITHOUT using the optic/sight selection) - but using the optics/sight selection (ie. the scope, aimpoint or ironsight) then each shot makes the sight jump a ridiculous amount.

EDIT: ok, just looked at the new ironsight video and that all looks much better.

[Turowicz 0]

AK's have compensators in the middle of the barrel pointed to the left (not to the top). This makes them recoil to the right

[RogueRunner 0]

AK's have compensators in the middle of the barrel pointed to the left (not to the top). This makes them recoil to the right

That's not compensators at all! It's the gas vents for the gas blowback and would do almost nothing, if anything at all to recoil!

[memnoch 0]

I was watching a program a few weeks back on Discovery about the Tommy Gun. They described what was possibly one of the first 'hits' using this weapon and the shooter missed with every bullet due to recoil and his ignorance of how it would behave when fired on full auto. An accessory called the Cutts compensator was developed that attached to the end of the barrel, deflecting gasses down and to the right IIRC.

For those interested have a look here.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

I was watching a program a few weeks back on Discovery about the Tommy Gun. They described what was possibly one of the first 'hits' using this weapon and the shooter missed with every bullet due to recoil and his ignorance of how it would behave when fired on full auto. An accessory called the Cutts compensator was developed that attached to the end of the barrel, deflecting gasses down and to the right IIRC.

For those interested have a look here.

The Cutts compensator would also make the gun tend to

"pull away" somewhat, but apparently it was found that the

advantages it imparted weren't worth the expense or the

weight and it was discarded from the M1A1 variant. Most of

the variants used by the British retained it though.

Despite this, because of the recoil and the possibility of

wasting ammo (significant when you only have 20 round

stick mags - they fit into ammo pouches), in the 1940

British Army user manual for the Thompson it says:

"...single round firing should be employed whenever possible.

Bursts should be reserved for extreme emergencies, and when

used, should be of 2 or 3 rounds only."

Interestingly as the war goes on (I have the British Tommy

gun manuals from 1940, 1942 and 1944) they change their

mind and say that auto fire should be used by default (but

still only in 2 to 3 round bursts). I presume that they were

institutionally becoming more used to the weapon and how it

tended to be employed in the field by experienced users.

The manuals also say that "with skill" you could be accurate

with it at "up to 50 yards"! Wow!  

[memnoch 0]

50 yards! In the program I saw, which was set in prohibition era Chicago, the guy was stand closer than that and chewed the wall up over the mobsters head!

EDIT: I think they both looked at each other, blinked, and then ran off!

[Infam0us 10]

Have you ever fired a rifle?  The recoil goes backwards... not up or down.  The movement of the gun has to do with how you and your body reacts to the recoil, which isn't always straight up.  Often if you're right handed its up and to the right... at least for me, and I've shot competition for close to 10 years now.

I thought all rifles had to be shot using your right, they would'nt let me use my left in British Army basic and I found it quite hard using my other arm to hold the recoil, but then it was a SA80

[KJAM 0]

I thought all rifles had to be shot using your right, they would'nt let me use my left in British Army basic and I found it quite hard using my other arm to hold the recoil, but then it was a SA80

From what I heard if you tried to use the SA80 with your left hand you'd do yourself some bad injuries (cocking lever hitting you in the face or something, I forget)

There were a few lefty versions made but I know nothing about how many or how common they are.

[jphilapy 0]

Have you ever fired a rifle?  The recoil goes backwards... not up or down.  The movement of the gun has to do with how you and your body reacts to the recoil, which isn't always straight up.  Often if you're right handed its up and to the right... at least for me, and I've shot competition for close to 10 years now.

<<<The movement of the gun has to do with how you and your body reacts to the recoil, which isn't always straight up.

>>>

Hi weegee, we don't have any control over that in the game which means that we should be given that control in some way, or else the characteristics of the model should be designed to compensate for our lack of control. Put it this way, what good is it to have a weapon handle realisticly in a game if you are not able to handle it realisticly in the game?

Jeff

[BroK3n 0]

.... heh?

I think the recoil is fine in this game, albeit a bit too "floaty" on ironsights. But IRL when i fire an M16 the gun goes to the left. Maybe its just me.

btw I find the M4 aimpoint sight a chore to use and prefer the regular W ironsights.

[Infam0us 10]

I thought all rifles had to be shot using your right, they would'nt let me use my left in British Army basic and I found it quite hard using my other arm to hold the recoil, but then it was a SA80

From what I heard if you tried to use the SA80 with your left hand you'd do yourself some bad injuries (cocking lever hitting you in the face or something, I forget)

There were a few lefty versions made but I know nothing about how many or how common they are.

Yeah does make sense seeing as the parts likely to damage you are all located on the right side of the rifle, hence why you hold it that way. Or perhaps its just the British Army being anal about it, like the bed making at 5AM

[dm 9]

I thought all rifles had to be shot using your right, they would'nt let me use my left in British Army basic and I found it quite hard using my other arm to hold the recoil, but then it was a SA80

From what I heard if you tried to use the SA80 with your left hand you'd do yourself some bad injuries (cocking lever hitting you in the face or something, I forget)

There were a few lefty versions made but I know nothing about how many or how common they are.

Yeah does make sense seeing as the parts likely to damage you are all located on the right side of the rifle, hence why you hold it that way. Or perhaps its just the British Army being anal about it, like the bed making at 5AM

The SA80 family of rifles may only be fired right handed, as if you fired them lefthanded the hot brass would be ejected into the shooters face/down their top. I've been clipped on the back of the hand by a freshly ejected round, and I still have a tiny scar where it burnt me, having that in your face is not good news...

The AR15 family can be fired left or right handed, as can most H&K weapons, etc etc. Its dependant on two factors - whether or not the trigger/fire selectors are ambidexterous (yes, you could use a right handed rifle lefthanded, but it would be clunky and uncomfortable) and where the ejection port is - you dont want all that hot brass in your face now, its not cool...

The direction, as already described is because of your body's reaction to the recoil - your shoulders pivot around your spine, not some point out in mid air, thats why rifles TEND to pull up and to the right (if fired righty) and up and to the left (if fired lefty). There are also other factors to consider, such as muzzle breaks/compensators etc which direct the gasses in order to reduce the felt effects of recoil.

The recoild system in ArmA still isnt perfect, but its much better than the "expanding" aim circle of random dispertion.

[sluggCDN 0]

I think it's awesome that BIS simulated this tiny detail - a rifle pulling slightly to the right after a shot is fired. In reality if you are right-handed this happens due to the pull on the trigger when your gun pivots slighly around the pistol grip, on top of everything else.

But then we still have tracers in sniper rifles... C'mon BIS!!!!!

[Radic 0]

I find it odd that the game "simulates" the player being a total novice to using the firearms depicted - I'd rather my ingame character be handled as if he/I were a reasonably well trained and experienced soldier - thence I'd expect to be able to hold my sights fairly well (excepting of course when firing on automatic) - again, the way it was all handled in OFP was pretty decent so I don't understand why they didn't just do it the same.

[Ilaafi 0]

Guns (I dont mean small arms you talk here), like 122mm howitzer D-30, do not have any recoil at all. Having been a gunner with it, I was pleased to find the howitzer modelled but it's behaviour was a little disappointing: no recoil, it's standard FRAG-HE 22Kg ammo is as effective than 200g handgrenade??

[Second 0]

I find it odd that the game "simulates" the player being a total novice to using the firearms depicted - I'd rather my ingame character be handled as if he/I were a reasonably well trained and experienced soldier - thence I'd expect to be able to hold my sights fairly well (excepting of course when firing on automatic) - again, the way it was all handled in OFP was pretty decent so I don't understand why they didn't just do it the same.

Shooting is fine, it is at it should be. In vanilla OFP weapon was way too stabile (think about stress, adrenaline etc...) it was just like in shootingrange with time to build/set bodyposition optimal and not in firefights which involves moving, stress, fear, agression. Almost every mod for OFP increased weapon sway and recoil.

Here's a tip.

You can stabilate your sights with consetration (right mouse) button. Just move the pole's tip on or near target, consetrate and shoot before you lose your simulated eye focus, breath holding etc... wait a bit and repeat, just like in shooting ranges. It bit more complex than before, but it is good as it requires player to think and choose (do i shoot fastly or take a bit more of time to shoot more accurately) + Player needs to consentrate more.

Then again if you talking about recoil:

If you use consetration weapon recoil seems to be hard, M16 burst (ingame) sprays bullets in 500 meters to about 3 meters tall pattern. I tested this just today and i think several guys in here has stated that ArmA's M16 recoil is pretty decent. AK74 i think (i've been trained to AK-47 kind rifle) has quite good too. Only that you can't reduce recoil by mildly drawing weapon from magazine with you hand in ArmA.

[Dark_vityaz 0]

KSVK has the great recoil.You can even kill helicopters by this thing. Real good!

[Second 0]

KSVK has the great recoil.You can even kill helicopters by this thing. Real good!

I remeber my first shot with it... I instantly fell in

Talking about bringing helichopters down: My best was douple tap with suppressed AKsu-74 (don't remeber the correct name now) Cobra's pilot when it was hovering in 200 meters away... Only two shot fired and i could hear them both hitting flesh, then chopper started to dive

[TheReddog 0]

I think the big problem with the recoil is how bouncy it is, I mean really what is up with the bouncy recoil and secondly why are the assault rifles and carbines the only weapons in the game which recoil this way?

It seems weird to say the least, every other weapon from the pistols to the smg's, sniper rifles and MG's just have simple straight recoil, yet the AR's and carbines have this horrid bouncing recoil that doesn't feel good at all. It doesn't strike me as particularly realistic either, recoil shoves a weapon back into your shoulder, it doesn't recoil up, then down then back up again. It's almost as if BIS have coded in your soldier pulling down to try to compensate for the recoil and overdoing it then having to correct himself. In fact I am sure that's what it is because the gun recoils back and up then drags forward and down through your original point of aim and then raises back up to it, so you end up aiming right back where you begun.

The problem is it makes any sort of rapid fire nearly impossible except for very short range, and while yes I agree that in the original OFP rapid and accurate semi automatic fire was much too easy I think this as a counter is way overdoing it. What's worse is the AI just isn't impeded by it, so they will throw incredibly rapid and somewhat accurate fire onto your position from 100m away while your weapon bounces everywhere as if your arms are made of bungee cord causing shots to fly all over the place if you try the same thing.

I say rather than having this artificial return to point of aim let the player correct his aim after a shot. Cut the bounce out and leave the vertical recoil as is so the gun recoils and then stays where it finished and the player has to correct it. Maybe also add a bit of horizontal drag towards the direction it is ejecting its brass as well. That would make the assault rifles and carbines feel and shoot 100% better in my opinion without making them ridiculously easy to accurately rapidly fire.

[dirtylarrygb 0]

I think the big problem with the recoil is how bouncy it is, I mean really what is up with the bouncy recoil and secondly why are the assault rifles and carbines the only weapons in the game which recoil this way?

It seems weird to say the least, every other weapon from the pistols to the smg's, sniper rifles and MG's just have simple straight recoil, yet the AR's and carbines have this horrid bouncing recoil that doesn't feel good at all. It doesn't strike me as particularly realistic either, recoil shoves a weapon back into your shoulder, it doesn't recoil up, then down then back up again. It's almost as if BIS have coded in your soldier pulling down to try to compensate for the recoil and overdoing it then having to correct himself. In fact I am sure that's what it is because the gun recoils back and up then drags forward and down through your original point of aim and then raises back up to it, so you end up aiming right back where you begun.

The problem is it makes any sort of rapid fire nearly impossible except for very short range, and while yes I agree that in the original OFP rapid and accurate semi automatic fire was much too easy I think this as a counter is way overdoing it. What's worse is the AI just isn't impeded by it, so they will throw incredibly rapid and somewhat accurate fire onto your position from 100m away while your weapon bounces everywhere as if your arms are made of bungee cord causing shots to fly all over the place if you try the same thing.

I say rather than having this artificial return to point of aim let the player correct his aim after a shot. Cut the bounce out and leave the vertical recoil as is so the gun recoils and then stays where it finished and the player has to correct it. Maybe also add a bit of horizontal drag towards the direction it is ejecting its brass as well. That would make the assault rifles and carbines feel and shoot 100% better in my opinion without making them ridiculously easy to accurately rapidly fire.

I have noticed a huge difference in the recoil when standing and firing the m240 vs the M249 saw. You can stand and use the SAW zoomed like a M16, try that with the m240 and the recoil is insane.

You don't even really have to lay down to use the saw, its recoil is no worse than a carbine in short bursts. The m240 is a lay down weapon full stop!

p.s. I brought down a Littlebird with an RPG in a muliplayer hold map the other day, guy was strafing me with his mini guns flying straight at me, i stood up gave some lead and put the RPG into his face. The wreck missed my head by about 1 foot. A real hollywood moment And the best shot I've done in ARMA by a mile!