Glad that BIS didn't give in to 'Ragdoll'

[Commie 0]

I'm glad BIS didn't go for the exagerrated 'ragdoll' rubbish that every other game seems to try for. When will people realise that 'ragdoll' is not realistic in anything except making modelled units act like 'ragdolls' and not people?

OFP had a great death animation, people had this fall especially when in motion that really gave a feeling of the finality and even banality of dying. People don't tend to fly in 'cool' poses, arms and legs flailing as in 'ragdoll' based games or roll over themselves on a slope downhill like in HL2, Far Cry, FEAR etc.

Good that ArmA follows the OFP model, though more elaborate, though I notice that there seems to be more of a delay when you kill someone and when the animation kicks in. It's like a split second pause between getting shot and falling, not like in OFP.

[max power 21]

The benefit of some ragdoll animation is that in OFP as with ArmA, there is a finite number of death poses... so getting used to those poses and animations is easy... which makes your job of identifying dead bodies as dead much easier. Applying ragdoll physics (correctly) also eliminates weird clipping problems with corpses on stairs, through walls, etc. There are many examples where ragdolls are eerily realistic, and many examples where they are not so.

[thr0tt 12]

If done right ragdoll would appear more realistic than standard 'death poses', I mean, If I am hit with a grenade or bullet to that effect I am not sure irl that I will just appear to bleed and lay down ?

Edit: Not that I don't like the way ArmA works btw.

[max power 21]

If done right ragdoll would appear more realistic than standard 'death poses', I mean, If I am hit with a grenade or bullet to that effect I am not sure irl that I will just appear to bleed and lay down ?

Edit: Not that I don't like the way ArmA works btw.

That's precisely what is seems to look like from what I've seen in that sort of thing captured on tape. Unfortunately, it's not possible to have a marginally edified opinion on the subject without watching lots and lots of gruesome videos...

But let's not get ahead of ourselves here, death animations can look quite good. They are not all rubbish. I think that each have their strengths and weaknesses. I think for this game it would be overkill because of the physics calcs needed. It's just a shame to see so many bodies in exactly the same pose.

[Heatseeker 0]

I've read before that they (BIS) experimented with them but the performance take wasnt acceptable.

Anyway ragdolls are a waste of CPU and Arma is just too large scale.

[monkeyb 0]

Rag doll works if done properley, look at Red Orchestra and tell me that it doesn't.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Ragdoll is a waste of CPU.

Kind Regards Walker

[thr0tt 12]

I agree RO is a good implementation, not over done but I think the main point for ArmA is that done on such a huge scale then CPU hit would be too much for any modern day computer to run smoothly. I mean there are ppl having a few performance issues already and that is without adding to the load.

Maybe if a few more death anims were added and impact registration was a little more precise then you could have a few more differing deaths etc., woud be nice to remove an arm or leg occassionally by rifle fire (that doesn't sound right does it lol).

[killaalf 0]

What I dearly would like to see is some way to switch from animation x to a death animation instantly, for example it's rather silly to watch AT soldiers finish reloading their weapons and then fall down dead.

[Dudester 0]

What I dearly would like to see is some way to switch from animation x to a death animation instantly, for example it's rather silly to watch AT soldiers finish reloading their weapons and then fall down dead.

Here Here

[karl76 0]

I´d rather have ragdolls than stupid death animations that don´t start right when they should. It´s very annoying when you shoot a soldier and don´t get proper and instant feedback if it was a successful kill or not. Sometimes it can take a whole second until the previous animation stops and the death animation is triggered.

Another advantage of ragdoll, which btw doesn´t use as many CPU cycles if it done with a good middleware like Havok, is that it adds realism to the battlefield. You could literally see the difference of impact a 9mm bullet has, compared to a 5.56, 7.62 or .50 cal. A hit in the legs would look very different than a headshot and whats even better, you would constantly see a different "death" and they would be instant.

Of course I do have to question the use of ragdoll, if the rest of the physics are already very simplified or unrealistic (*cough* flying tanks) or when the engine isn´t properly multi-threaded anyway and doesn´t utilize computers resources like it should in the first place.

[Tracer 0]

What I dearly would like to see is some way to switch from animation x to a death animation instantly, for example it's rather silly to watch AT soldiers finish reloading their weapons and then fall down dead.

Sadly in real life that is sometimes the case.......

The human nervous system can function on for several seconds autonimously, even although the damage is catastrophic!

The fastest nerve speed is around 180mph -compare that to a bullet or a dozen or more traveling at several thousand feet per second!! It appears to you -since you are firing the gun (within the game) at the enemy- you see dozens of tracer rounds go through an enemy, but by the time the nervous system catches up it appears an eternity -headshot exception.

BIS have captured that part very realisticaly.

Read any real-life tale of war or scenario and you will come across many similar stories as above.

Back on subject;

Rag Doll physics are in some of my enjoyable games.

Splinter Cell,Oblivion,Hidden & Dangerous 2 and Raven Shield and even GRAW.

The sheer random element of shooting or blowing up the enemy on stairs,vehicles,bridges,ladders,towers etc (a good programmer doesn't get collision problems) makes for a rewarding experience in a true gamers book.

However it's not just about death..

Example:

Take a simple thing like special ops, how do you hide a body in ArmA or OFP? Well it just 'dissolves' into the ground doesn't it. Not exactly realistic and another minus point to ArmA & OFPs stiff body poses!

However, play H&D2 or Splinter Cell and it becomes a game in itself! Why? because the AI can detect bodies.

Change into uniforms also ads another element.

So HAVOK does add a whole new 'proper' gameplay -not just because of realistic deaths.

[tkkivi 0]

I think the animation delay issue could be easily fixed in the upcoming patches.

From an Armed assault info interview

Quote[/b] ]Armed Assault.info : we had a question about why when a soldier was killed he must go all along the current animation before dying.

Marek Spanel : Well, it's not a very difficult problem to rectify, it's just like the length of animation when healing at medic.

[Zendjir 0]

Ragdolls can be alot of fun and look quite good aswell. But for OFP the impact on performance iwould be unacceptable. I'd rather have a 100 soldiers in a great battle who all fall down in the same way than 10 ragdoll soldiers. I think BIS made the right decision here.

[MehMan 0]

Example:

Take a simple thing like special ops, how do you hide a body in ArmA or OFP? Well it just 'dissolves' into the ground doesn't it. Not exactly realistic and another minus point to ArmA & OFPs stiff body poses!

However, play H&D2 or Splinter Cell and it becomes a game in itself! Why? because the AI can detect bodies.

Change into uniforms also ads another element.

So HAVOK does add a whole new 'proper' gameplay -not just because of realistic deaths.

And that relates to ragdoll how? They can do that too in OFP/ArmA.

[Tracer 0]

Example:

Take a simple thing like special ops, how do you hide a body in ArmA or OFP? Well it just 'dissolves' into the ground doesn't it. Not exactly realistic and another minus point to ArmA & OFPs stiff body poses!

However, play H&D2 or Splinter Cell and it becomes a game in itself! Why? because the AI can detect bodies.

Change into uniforms also ads another element.

So HAVOK does add a whole new 'proper' gameplay -not just because of realistic deaths.

And that relates to ragdoll how? They can do that too in OFP/ArmA.

Oh for gods sake! You quote me and don't even read any of it

Here's a clue:

When you pick up a body you carry it away (as in limp moveable object) to wherever you want to hide it -HAVOK ok

Your perception is weird;

In ArmA/OFP you can't pickup a dead body nor move it, instead you have an option to 'hide body' -which may as well be a hidden lift under the STIFF body taking it downwards!

There is nothing realistic about that (understand now?) and it doesn't add special ops elements to the game When you play (Special Ops)

HAVOK allows you to move the body as if it was a real body -throw it off a cliff for eg, stick it in a cellar or in a bush, tree etc,etc,etc..........

[whisper 0]

Anyway, I think it's all about scaling. As long as a feature does not scale up to ArmA possibilities (hundreds of units on game at the same time), you won't have it in game. A question of choice.

[Luciano 0]

ARMA's a lagfest already when you play with a lot of people and the server isn't top notch.

The reason they didn't add Havok is because ARMA can't handle it and have a reasonable lag.

[whisper 0]

or

"how to present a product as completely crap by hiding all its strong points"

Congrats Luciano, once more, an impressive move.

or not?

/awaits for the inevitable fanboi label.

[MehMan 0]

HAVOK allows you to move the body as if it was a real body -throw it off a cliff for eg, stick it in a cellar or in a bush, tree etc,etc,etc..........

Ah now I understand, sorry. But you can still do that in ArmA. Just we'll need a mod...

[Heatseeker 0]

Ragdolls always look weightless, its even worse in MP.

I think the first splinter cell game didnt have ragdolls and you could still pick up and throw bodies around .

Any ragdolls in BIS games would be pointless, even if we had the HW to handle 100 simultanious ragdolls i would rather see my CPU used to have smarter a.i. behaviour, even more units, vehicle physics etc.

Things like destructible buildings and better vehicle damage model and physics really are much more important gameplay wise than having bodies correctly sliding down the stairs. A good animation system is more than enough imo.

[memnoch 0]

Another advantage of ragdoll, which btw doesn´t use as many CPU cycles if it done with a good middleware like Havok, is that it adds realism to the battlefield.  You could literally see the difference of impact a 9mm bullet has, compared to a 5.56, 7.62 or .50 cal.  A hit in the legs would look very different than a headshot and whats even better, you would constantly see a different "death" and they would be instant.

If any of you have seen that episode of Mythbusters where they try out different weapons on a dead pig, they showed that no matter how big the weapon was they fired at it the pig hardly budged. In face the only weapon that did make it fall backwards was a shotgun and only because the pellets didnt pass right through like the rifle rounds did.

[NeMeSiS 11]

HAVOK allows you to move the body as if it was a real body -throw it off a cliff for eg, stick it in a cellar or in a bush, tree etc,etc,etc..........

Bullcrap, if BI felt that it was really neccesary to move bodies around they could have included an option to move the stiff bodies around, ragdolls are nothing more then nice graphical effects.

Why do you want to move bodies around anyway? You are on a battlefield, there are people shooting at you, why do you want to drag dead people around? The only people i would drag around would be my wounded buddies

[Tracer 0]

HAVOK allows you to move the body as if it was a real body -throw it off a cliff for eg, stick it in a cellar or in a bush, tree etc,etc,etc..........

Bullcrap, if BI felt that it was really neccesary to move bodies around they could have included an option to move the stiff bodies around, ragdolls are nothing more then nice graphical effects.

Why do you want to move bodies around anyway? You are on a battlefield, there are people shooting at you, why do you want to drag dead people around? The only people i would drag around would be my wounded buddies

What's the bull crap statement for? Another person that doesn't read properly!

I stated SPECIAL OPS where you move and hide bodies!

I also stated what games allowed you to do that; H&D2 and Splinter Cell, because the AI could actualy notice DEAD bodies!! Like there IS Special Ops in ArmA/OFP duh!!!!

What's the true purpose of having Special Ops in a game like ArmA/OFP if you couldn't have fun, and more importantly realism, hiding bodies (and the slowness,vulnerability carrying the dead weight body) or having AI that noticed dead bodies?

Please, if your going to mouth off, get your facts right first eh...  Or at least be constructive rather than plain stupid.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Well there are at least another 1000 suggestions/bugs, you dont have to act like yours is the best, IMO this should be quite low priority as it could be made by the community, and my point still stands, dragging doesnt have anything to do with ragdolls.