Horrible Performance...

[Jack-UK 0]

I made an improvement of about 10 FPS from overcloking my GPU on my Graphics card... There should be an Nvidia overclocking tool if u google it. I have an ATI card so i used ATI Tool and i overclocked from 400-500 mhz and saw an increase of like 10 FPS give or take...

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

How is it the graphics card? Its way better than the ATi Radeon 9800 128mb i believe.

7500LE ??

I belive it is ... well... nothing for gaming.

Its not really supported and now even known or sold seperately. Only built in some systems.. in DELL I belive ?!

It is way too weak. Many new mainboards have it as a on board chip.

[WhiskeyBullets 0]

Hmm found something interesting XBOX uses hard drive streaming and if there useing the same code from XBOX OFP Elite then this is what leading to the problems.

I wondering if you need a AV Steaming compliant hard drive

AV Steaming Hard Drives are designed for digital video recorders (DVR), set-top boxes (STB),DVD/HDD combos, game consoles and other consumer electronic devices.

Heres the main specs that are interesting

• ATA 7 Streaming Commands to enable standard

streaming and AV performance and PATA/SATA

interface improvements.

• MHX stream detection technology (dual processor

and improved streaming) to maximize streaming

efficiency of the drive and data management to

optimize performance.

[Bunks 0]

Whiskey, I wanted to say something about the xbox thing too. But I was afraid to say anything that would cause flaming from die hard loyalist who think this whole engine was made in just the last year

Do you think that this perfomance dilemma may be somehow linked to the xbox thing? Because this game is just not responding to tweaks that other games do. Im not to savy on the streaming part but im starting to fear the lack of any BIS response to perfomance issues may be a sign that this may not be an easy fix as some may hope.

edit-and I just order a Raptor HD so I can test this out some time in the next week or two.

[dmitri 0]

Whiskey, I wanted to say something about the xbox thing too. But I was afraid to say anything that would cause flaming from die hard loyalist who think this whole engine was made in just the last year

Do you think that this perfomance dilemma may be somehow linked to the xbox thing? Because this game is just not responding to tweaks that other games do. Im not to savy on the streaming part but im starting to fear the lack of any BIS response to perfomance issues may be a sign that this may not be an easy fix as some may hope.

edit-and I just order a Raptor HD so I can test this out some time in the next week or two.

I have a 10 000rpm SATA WD Raptor. I experience no noticable performance increase between it and my standard 7200 drives in ArmA.

Still experience massive drops around foliage etc..

[WhiskeyBullets 0]

Yes the Xbox thing is it. I guess that if its coded to use this format then it will never run worth a damm on PC format were performance threw the GPU is key. In the Xbox the GPU in not much of a factor as it is only use for rendering what is being streamed from the hard drive. Thats why Xbox uses the CORE processors and these type of ATA-7 Compliant Hard Drives.

If this is in fact the case BIS made a "HUGE" mistake because of this and it might be unfixable for the PC User Game.

Im not worried about peeps flaming because im 100% correct.

[WhiskeyBullets 0]

If your hard drive isnt ATA-7 compliant then it doesnt matter what hard drive type or manfacturer you have and if its raided or just a single drive.

my bad on the double post

[NeMeSiS 11]

I fail to see the link between FPS drops near foliage and HD streaming...

The only logical explenation i heard for this is that bushes/trees are made out of vertices and that most videocards only have a few vertex processors/whatever compared to their pixel processors/whatever (which are used mostly, in other games). Oblivion suffered from the same problem in a less noticable way.

[Heatseeker 0]

The streaming thing was meant to allow the xbox to load all the terrain because it only has 64 mb of system ram. Terrain streaming wasnt it? I think everything else is handled normally so i believe what drops frames in Arma is all that you see around you.

Just look at the game, amount of world detail, all very high resolution vegetation, detailed models and textures, bump maps, shadders, hdr... how could it not be demanding?

[WhiskeyBullets 0]

Your thinking the PC way with Armed Assault. The XBOX way is the hard drive and CPU for rendering purposes. So if your useing a PC and only getting X Mps out of your hard drive all the time then you would have rendering and FPS drops as your Video Card Waits for the information streaming from your hard drive.

Im thinking the only way to get it to run on a PC is to turn it into and XBOX.

Exsample of system to use

ATA-7 Compliant Hard Drive

Any single or dual core 2.8 to 3 Ghz Processor

Any GPU with 128MB and up for rendering

Quote[/b] ]The streaming thing was meant to allow the xbox to load all the terrain because it only has 64 mb of system ram

Thats why system ram wasnt mentioned because it doesnt make a difference.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I still dont see why a big FPS drop near foliage would be caused by a slow HD, there is no big (relatively) FPS drop in cities (compared to an almost empty desert).

And, people with 8800's/other-very-high-end-cards dont seem to have such big FPS drops, while they would have the same HD limitations as everyone else...

EDIT: Did some reading on the ATA-7 thing: It seems to be released in 2005, and slower then SATA anyway according to this ("The ATA-7 standard was released in 2005. With the introduction of Serial ATA, this is the last expected update of the IDE [PATA] bus. SATA is faster, and requires a smaller cable, which means better air flow in the Case.") and wikipedia.

Now, i'm really sure that i bought my xbox back in 2002, so it would be very strange if it used ATA-7..

(And as SATA is faster anyway, buying an old mobo and a ATA7 HD isnt really worth it )

[spongbo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes the Xbox thing is it. I guess that if its coded to use this format then it will never run worth a damm on PC format were performance threw the GPU is key. In the Xbox the GPU in not much of a factor as it is only use for rendering what is being streamed from the hard drive. Thats why Xbox uses the CORE processors and these type of ATA-7 Compliant Hard Drives.

If this is in fact the case BIS made a "HUGE" mistake because of this and it might be unfixable for the PC User Game.

Wow. As far as I can tell, you just made something up, then started complaining that what you made up was a stupid way to do it.

It's not that. How do I know? Well for starters, the xbox hard drive was notoriously slow. It's hardly your ideal "optimize for this" case. Was the Xbox drive an ATA-7 drive? I'd guess not, as the Xbox was out in 2001, the standard was still being baked in 2001, and the top search engine mention of an ATA7 being "newly ratified" is from 2005. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage/display/20050106072724.html

So stop nutbagging!

How about some more scientific testing?

Try dropping resolution to 640x480 or below. If that improves frame rate, chances are, it *is* the GPU thing, and is nothing to do with your delusion.

I'm not arguing that ArmA couldn't be better optimized, but honestly, I feel dumber just for having read the "it's the xbox" posts here.

[WhiskeyBullets 0]

Xbox 360 is what im talking about, didnt think anyone was still using the old one my bad on not be clear on that point.

Per your link dated 01/06/2005 and i qoute

Quote[/b] ]The new drives are expected to fuel the growth of high-capacity DVRs (digital video recorders), which require hard drives that are optimized for storing and retrieving digital video content. Hitachi has addressed this need by integrating its “Smooth Stream†technology into the new drives to enhance the video streaming functionality. Based on newly ratified ATA-7 AV Streaming Feature Set standard, Hitachi’s Smooth Stream enables the host to control the drive’s error recovery process. This feature tunes the drive to capture video data streams. Hitachi was the first hard drive vendor to integrate such a capability in its products.

Nice try though

[Bunks 0]

How about some more scientific testing?

Try dropping resolution to 640x480 or below. If that improves frame rate, chances are, it *is* the GPU thing, and is nothing to do with your delusion.

this makes absolutely no sense to me. By reducing stress on a system that gains perfomance proves its that system Thats like me saying that if i turn off other programs running and my perfomance improves then my cpu is the problem.

[aus_twisted 0]

Not sure about the HD streaming, but the XBOX version has caused a lot of problems in Armed Assault for PC. Just look at how the controls are for analog devices, and even still throttle for planes works like a digital button.

If you open up some of the configs you can see how many times XBOX is mentioned.

[spongbo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Xbox 360 is what im talking about

So help me out here. Flashpoint Elite for Xbox used a streaming system from its slow hard drive because of RAM constraints.

The PC version of Armed Assault inherits some kind of graphical performance problem - despite just about every PC having a faster hard drive than the Xbox 1 - because the Xbox 360 has a faster hard drive?

Ignore me, I give up. You win. Obviously an Xbox problem.

[Maddmatt 1]

Damn some people talk the biggest load of crap here . Performance problems are not due to the hard drive unless yours is really old and slow. GPU and CPU are the main factors. Less than 1 gig of RAM might cause problems aswell. The bushes are detailed and have high resolution textures with transparency. Turning down transparency AA and AF will help. Object detail at normal helps aswell.

Also if your video card is a 7600 or higher then turning down post processing is just dumb . I have seen posts by people with better cards than mine who set it to low. My 7800GT has no problems with it. Not sure about Shading detail, but high end shader model 3 cards should be fine with it at full.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Xbox 360 is what im talking about, didnt think anyone was still using the old one my bad on not be clear on that point.

Per your link dated 01/06/2005 and i qoute

Quote[/b] ]The new drives are expected to fuel the growth of high-capacity DVRs (digital video recorders), which require hard drives that are optimized for storing and retrieving digital video content. Hitachi has addressed this need by integrating its “Smooth Stream†technology into the new drives to enhance the video streaming functionality. Based on newly ratified ATA-7 AV Streaming Feature Set standard, Hitachi’s Smooth Stream enables the host to control the drive’s error recovery process. This feature tunes the drive to capture video data streams. Hitachi was the first hard drive vendor to integrate such a capability in its products.

Nice try though

Aaaaaah yes, i forgot that OFPE was released on the xbox360, therefore benefits from the ATA-7? ( )

Man, you are hilarious, but stop making things up, this is at least the 2nd time that you do this here..

[dm 9]

Im thinking the only way to get it to run on a PC is to turn it into and XBOX.

Exsample of system to use

ATA-7 Compliant Hard Drive

Any single or dual core 2.8 to 3 Ghz Processor

Any GPU with 128MB and up for rendering

Xbox 360 is what im talking about, didnt think anyone was still using the old one my bad on not be clear on that point.

Per your link dated 01/06/2005 and i qoute

... ...

Nice try though

Im not worried about peeps flaming because im 100% correct.

Yet more fantastically incorrect information

Sure, you'd be correct if OFP:E even worked on the Xbox360, but it doesnt. So not only are you basing your advice on the wrong info, you have a wonderful attitude about it too....

[WhiskeyBullets 0]

lol..deadmeat think about it, Armed Assault was designed for the the Xbox 360 the way it runs and looks should tell you that. It easier and more cost effective to design a game once than to design 2 seperate platforms. Armed Assault for the XBOX 360 will be anounced in less than 6 months bro because the game is ready to roll for that platform.

The Hard Drive is the number 1 thing people do not upgrade followed closely by the power supply.

The reason being because they didnt need to before and that it runs the OS and every other game perfect. Now 99.9% of other software run like it should on the PC platform just not Armed Assault.

Ill use myself as a exsample, I have a Maxtor Hard Drive 7200 250GB 16MB Cache.

This here is Maxtor Line of ATA-7 Compliant Hard Drives

Maxtor QuickView® hard drives are optimized for digital video recorders (DVR), set-top boxes (STB), DVD combos, media centers and other consumer electronic devices. QuickView hard drives offer AV streaming performance and advanced features that enhance the digital entertainment experience.

How many people have this Maxtor drive not many i bet, why do you think that every other manufacturer has special Brand names for there compliant ATA-7 Hard Drives.

I like most here is SOL unless i upgrade my Hard Drive. Which means the cost of development for Armed Assault is on the PC comsumer by making them upgrade for just this game there hard drive and the cost if needed there OS.

Theres alot of people still using there hard drive that came with there system back when windows XP came out which puts that back to 2001. Why do you think that the german and cech versions have so many issues with performance?

The answer is simple: Alot of old Hard Drives

Deadmeat I spent the last 2 weeks researching this so to say that i just pulled this out of thin air and made it up is quite laughable. If i am wrong then prove that i am.

[disappointed 0]

Whisky must be stopped!

[Maddmatt 1]

lol..deadmeat think about it, Armed Assault was designed for the the Xbox 360 the way it runs and looks should tell you that. It easier and more cost effective to design a game once than to design 2 seperate platforms. Armed Assault for the XBOX 360 will be anounced in less than 6 months bro because the game is ready to roll for that platform.

The Hard Drive is the number 1 thing people do not upgrade followed closely by the power supply.

The reason being because they didnt need to before and that it runs the OS and every other game perfect. Now 99.9% of other software run like it should on the PC platform just not Armed Assault.

Ill use myself as a exsample, I have a Maxtor Hard Drive 7200 250GB 16MB Cache.

This here is Maxtor Line of ATA-7 Compliant Hard Drives

Maxtor QuickView® hard drives are optimized for digital video recorders (DVR), set-top boxes (STB), DVD combos, media centers and other consumer electronic devices. QuickView hard drives offer AV streaming performance and advanced features that enhance the digital entertainment experience.

How many people have this Maxtor drive not many i bet, why do you think that every other manufacturer has special Brand names for there compliant ATA-7 Hard Drives.

I like most here is SOL unless i upgrade my Hard Drive. Which means the cost of development for Armed Assault is on the PC comsumer by making them upgrade for just this game there hard drive and the cost if needed there OS.

Theres alot of people still using there hard drive that came with there system back when windows XP came out which puts that back to 2001. Why do you think that the german and cech versions have so many issues with performance?

The answer is simple: Alot of old Hard Drives

Deadmeat I spent the last 2 weeks researching this so to say that i just pulled this out of thin air and made it up is quite laughable. If i am wrong then prove that i am.

Did you even read the other replies you got?

Stop talking crap please.

[NeMeSiS 11]

If i am wrong then prove that i am.

...

Its not true untill its proven, i see no proof whatsoever.

And first off all, SATA is faster then any (P)ATA version, check wikipedia, google, whatever.

2nd:

My specs:

Amd athlon x2 4200+ (@2,5ghz)

1,5gb ram (@216×2=432mhz)

x1600XT (@630/750mhz)

Maxtor 6L160M0 (SATA/7,200 RPM/16mb buffer)

450 watt (cant remember the brand)

el cheapo soundcard

FPS:

43-48 in the desert

23-32 in cities

17-25 in forests

Normal settings (expect AA on low, AF on high, viewdistance 1800m)

There, no serious performance problems, and no ATA-7 whatever HD...

And the whole HD thing has nothing to do with FPS drops near bushes, the game doesnt need a constant stream from the HD from 1 bush when you are close to it.

Oh, and this game made for the 360 is complete bullshit, it has been said several times already that a 360 version is not something we should expect.

EDIT: Oh, and if the game was really limited by the HD, then why does upgrading the videocard give a performance boost to people?

[Heatseeker 0]

This just hit me in that other HW thread... What about diferent performance depending on shadder model? (2, 3, 4)?

For example a low end card (6600GT) with sm 3.0 might perform worse than a low end card with sm 2.0 .

Arma requires sm 2.0 and above...

[dm 9]

I love how you can make such sweeping statements (with the claim that you are "100% correct" ) without a. being a staff member at BI and b. knowing what you're talking about.

1. Marek and Suma have both stated that an Xbox 360 version is not on the cards.

2. ArmA is an extension of OFP:E, which was designed for the Xbox, NOT the 360. However, the mechanics of both consoles (the control style specifically) is identical.

3. ArmA appears to be "designed for console" because it uses a lot of content from the Xbox version of OFP, namely OFP:E.

As other people have said, ATA-7 is a standard for the (argueably obsolete) Parallel ATA standard. Serial ATA offers faster data transfer rates to/from the hard disc than even ATA-7.

If you actually DID spend 2 weeks "researching" it, you would know that the cause of these issues is inherent in the hardware and software its self. The fact that there are so many different manufacturers for every hardware item, and coupled with that the fact that there are so many driver versions for every bit of hardware means that the number of hardware and software combinations grows exponentially with the addition of every new piece of hardware.

The problem here is not because the hard drive cannot "stream data" efficiently, its is because of the sheer size and complexity of the textures (and verticies/polygons) needing to be processed when looking at foliage. One quick glance at the plants.pbo will tell you that. Because the plant models are such high poly structures (we can tell this by the average size of each plant model - high vertex count causes the model to be large in size as more info needs to be stored), combined with multiple LARGE textures with complex alpha, the amount of calculations needed for each plant is MUCH greater than that of a vehicle or building or soldier.

The reason that some people have bad performance, while others with comparable setups get good perfomance is intrinsic with modern computing. That is because hardware manufacturers and drivers are bound to be different, meaning that some people may be experiencing conflicts, or wont be gaining optimum performance because of poor drivers (and not always because of the gfx drivers I might add).

Did your "research" include setting up different selections of hardware in a clean room environment, with each of your different "ideal" and "not-ideal" components in combination? Unless you setup your "ideal" rig, with virgin installs of windows, the latest drivers and arma, and your "not-ideal" rig, also with virgin installs of windows, the latest drivers and arma. Which you then run quality benchmarking tests on (using arma) multiple times, then your claim that "the ideal system is this because I have researched it" is absolute BS...