official complaint to BIS

[Frans 0]

but I agree atleast they could post a statement here and there

They do. Just look around, I've seen Suma, StepanK and others post here.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

Although I sympathise with most comments made in this thread (it is dissapointing that so many bugs exist and that ArmA doesn't live up to our expectations in so many ways) I tend to echo DM's comments before.

For me, despite the shortcomings of the product, I would prefer to see a robust engine and the dev tools. At lot is wrong in the game but I believe in the power of the community and if only the dev tools were released at the same time, so much pressure would be relieved off BIS as the community plugged the holes for them. Not an ideal situation but I'm sure many of us dedicated fans would do it simply because we love the game.

So my point....yes...there are bugs (which need fixing) and there are gaps.....but if only they had the foresight to release dev tools at the same time we could all be focusing on the new material and community made fixes rather than lamenting the fate of ArmA as it has been released today.

The most dissapointing thing is wondering if BIS learnt anything from their OFP releases. We waited far too long for dev tools but when they came, the value of the game for many players increased exponentially.

If I could wish for only one thing...is that BIS would pay attention more to the core needs of the community. I'm sure the Spanel's and the dev team care about us...care about the game. They will have poured hours, days, week, months and years into this game. I don't question their dedication to the community. But I do question their execution or how they demonstrate this care to us.

For me, a robust engine (which is better than OFP...not ground breaking but BIS never promised ground breaking until Game 2) and the dev tools would have made all the difference in this release. Either we are not be listened too, or we are and the team at BIS is either is too busy to care or believes their way is the right way despite our collective wisdom on this topic.

ArmA is a diamond in the rough. Not a ground breaking product but as I mentioned before, I don't think BIS promised that until Game 2. If only we were given the tools, the whole community of diamond cutters and polishers could have turned the rough diamond into a thing of beauty quicker than BIS would have expected. Witness the steady trickle of addons building up now made from simple texture changes.

BIS, I beg you. Help us to help you. Give us the dev tools, no matter how beta they are. Let us help take the pressure off you. We believe in your work, your philosophy in design for this game. All we need is a sign you are listening to us and to not be too proud to accept our help in polishing this product for you.

Tigershark out.

PS. The discussion of ArmA will undoubtedly be covered in the Radio Check podcast soon.

[Shadow NX 1]

BIS, I beg you. Help us to help you. Give us the dev tools, no matter how beta they are. Let us help take the pressure off you. We believe in your work, your philosophy in design for this game. All we need is a sign you are listening to us and to not be too proud to accept our help in polishing this product for you.

Tigershark out.

PS. The discussion of ArmA will undoubtedly be covered in the Radio Check podcast soon.

Last time we asked for somethign to be released even if its buggy we got ArmA ^^

just kidding, i agree to the whole post above, sometimes i wish a dev would post some news from time to time or ask the community about their impressions.

I mean its not like theire EA who give a flying shit about their customers, BIS always was a bit like the lil bakery run by a family, you know everyone and feel like taken seriously... lately i feel like shopping in the discount supermarket

Oddly compared but i guess most know what i mean.

Oh and about the Podcast... we were so busy with the RHS week and then there was no podcast where it could be mentioned... i feel betrayed, hehe

[DrBobcat 0]

Honestly, I believe the lack of communication is for two very simple reasons - the time needed to constantly update the community (BIS is a very small team) and the language barrier between them and the rest of the non-czech-speaking world. While yes, they do have placebo, one man ain't nearly enough to answer everyone's questions and tend to everyone's gripes. I mean, sure, I wish we had more communication, but I have grown up to just accept what I get (This is putting it very simply. I mean this as long as they don't exploit me...).

- dRB

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

talking about a language barrier:

I'm german, 18, and I have no problems talking to other people in english.

and for a programmer, english is a language he needs to know, at least the basics, and even with the basics of english you can express yourself so I'd say language barrier does not count.

[DrBobcat 0]

talking about a language barrier:

I'm german, 18, and I have no problems talking to other people in english.

and for a programmer, english is a language he needs to know, at least the basics, and even with the basics of english you can express yourself so I'd say language barrier does not count.

It was just a thought! For sure if they spent a lot of their time here on the forums, they'd have that much less time to work on implementing/fixing stuff. Now I may not have all of my information straight, but I don't know if their PR department is adequate enough for trying to take on such a daunting task.

No offence to Placebo, of course...

- dRb

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

talking about a language barrier:

I'm german, 18, and I have no problems talking to other people in english.

and for a programmer, english is a language he needs to know, at least the basics, and even with the basics of english you can express yourself so I'd say language barrier does not count.

It was just a thought! For sure if they spent a lot of their time here on the forums, they'd have that much less time to work on implementing/fixing stuff. Now I may not have all of my information straight, but I don't know if their PR department is adequate enough for trying to take on such a daunting task.

No offence to Placebo, of course...

- dRb

it was no offense from my side either

dunno but I think support in the forum has nothing to do with pr.

I mean, devs could take the last 30minutes on the evening/night before they go home / go sleeping and reply to at least some posts. I mean, if people report bugs, complaining and stuff and then see no "response" (Talking about sentences like "we have noticed this", "go to wiki for bug reporting"), sure this is a good thing better then nothing but sometimes you just wish to hear more.

I think it has something to do with the human psychology.

but I don't want to get into it too deep.

Just trying to say that a presence of devs in a forum and answering some more questions could bring wonders

(no I'm not sick or sth thats just what I think )

I mean, I'm a hardcore ofp/arma fan and I believe in BIS, but don't forget that everyone is here since 2001 and knows Flashpoint and stuff. So "we" know that BIS is doing their job because we know them for 5 years (not everyone), but the new users here in the forum may think: "hmm they doesn't reply on problems -> bad support" or sth.

[Messiah 2]

I'll agree that its nice to see the devs post on the forum, and they provide the speculation free advice and comments that generally stop a petty argument, or comfirm a discussion we've been having on the forums, i.e. the model polly count thread.

But i'm equally happy to see them away from the forums. If they spent every waking hour on these forums replying, then how much work could they be doing on bug fixes, patches and new content... I'm sure placebo was employed for a reason (not just forum janitor of course) so to let the developers concentrate on developing, and not with the same 100 questions asked on these forums.

Tigershark - very well said, although I believe that in releasing the tools later is beneficial. Releasing the tools now would do nothing more than alienate the current divided community of those from the release countries that own it, those who bought it from outside and bodged it into english, and those who rather wait for a fixed, bug free (or less of them) version with the 505 release.

Everyone starts from the same point, the same knowledge and the same time frame. Everyone shares the same learning curves and shares the same problems, and solves the same problems.

Plus community content so early in the game's life can serve no purpose other than to confuse those with a lesser insight into the workings of Arma. If I were joe blogs looking for official addons and patches to my new game i bought when 505 released it, and came onto google, I'd be inundated with 100's of links to unofficial addons, AI improvement packs like ECP (or of that genre) and it could do no more than to confuse the bejeesus out of me.

I'm enjoying spending this time reading up and learning about the new tools available to us and the new engine and what it can do. I rather be prepared for what I'm about to face, rather than thrown in the deep end as with O2 the first time round...

and after all, there's nothing stopping anyone from using old O2 to build the models... thats what I've done... and there's nothing stopping anyone from texturing these models and creating the relevant normal maps, specular maps and so on... thats what I've done... come getting the new tools and example models, it would only then be a matter of days or weeks for me to get something finalised, given the hard work of modeling and texturing has been completed.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

Interesting post Messy...I can see your points and applaud your sense of fairness and democracy.

I can only point out that this unfair playing playing field was created by the game release decision itself. I don't think the community should suffer for the decision to stagger the release and therefore alienate users.

As for the googling example. I do see your point. But like any other product (Rainbow 6, Half Life 2) it does require a little research and ingenuity on behalf of the user to educate themselves about what is out there and what is good and bad.

You write some valid points but I feel like you are removing the responsibility of the individual to help themselves.

And that's the point I was trying to make with dev tools. Help us, help ourselves and indirectly help BIS so they can concentrate on things we can't fix such as AI, graphics glitches, physics, etc.

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

Ye, BIS can work on the engine and that bugs, and we make new addons, like an AH-64 Apache and all that stuff. Many of us are talented enought and with the option to import OFP Addons there will be many good addons out soon.

I'm thinking of nodunits and franze's AH-64 and Kiowa

so bis can concentrate on the bugs and we can concentrate on making addons.

but in the end it's up to bis what they do with their tools.

hopefully they recognize and think about these good points made here by tigershark and some others

[Messiah 2]

of course mate, You're quite correct that the situation has been created by the staggered release, but I'd still say there's no need to further compund it with a staggered tools release... well, it would be global, but only those with the game could make use of it.

r.e. google, its a fair point - With a bit of time its easy enough to get around the waffle and find what you want...

Perhaps I am removing the responsibility from the user to help themsevles, but I do agree about leaving BIS to fix the engine issues etc, and allow us to create new content - this does make a lot of sense, as it should still create as good, if not better content as came with the game, and frees up their time to do the more 'important' things.

I always imagined that BIS would have released the tools early to a few specific mod teams of the higher caliber so that they could start releasing new, sanctioned, content earlier, so to keep the game going for those with it whilst the bugs were fixed... that is a valid Idea that could have been explored, but I guess only BIS really know their intentions and what they plan to do.

in my case i'm a little biased with not being fussed if the tools dont come out till after 505, given thats the first time I'll be able to get hold of the game, so I'm not really approaching this 'problem' with a subjective view.

and of course those who get a 'head start' with the tools, if they were to be released now, can then pass on their experiences and knowledge to those who have to wait... That can't be bad thing

[baddo 0]

Sorry I can't do anything else but cry and laugh at the same time when I read the posts you guys are making here about how BIS should do their job – I mean come on now, people, â€GIVE US THE DEV TOOLS AND THE COMMUNITY WILL FIX THE PRODUCTâ€!? Stop that ******** talk right now! BIS is supposed to be a professional software development company and not a bunch of hairy and smelly open-source maniacs who release a half-***** product and then give it to others to finish it. Do not encourage them, in any way, to become hairy and smelly open-source maniacs. I repeat: do not encourage them! Did you understand?! If not then read again until you do. And the talks about â€it is enough for the engine to be good, rest is not that importantâ€!? Hey what if I were a car manufacturer, sold you a thing that looks like a car and walks like car but doesn't really work like a car when you try to use it for what a car is meant to be used. Then you come cry to me that this car you sold is not working, what's wrong? Well hey I could then say that â€Yeah but the engine is perfect isn't it?! See, here is a drill, here is an angle grinder, here is a welding machine, here is a hammer, here is a sheet of steel, build the rest of the car to look and work like you want I am out of here bye!†Now, how does that sound to you?

Oh by the way, I have not seen the product and thus I will not judge it. I can only judge the product after spending countless of hours crawling under trees, watching out for enemies and freaking out when they surprise me with my pants down – until I have done that plus something else I don't know about yet, I can't say anything about the quality of the product. If the product gets me sucked in like Operation Flashpoint did, then I can start talking about the quality.

What really sticks to my eyes here in these forums is the unbeliavable attitude of many people who are saying that the community will fix the product if only they get the â€dev toolsâ€. Now, in your dreams maybe that will work, but in the reality it is not an option. Step down from your fantasies for a moment and look what you are saying. I think when you are asking for the â€dev toolsâ€, you are only talking about wanting to get the community adding more content to the product, but that is totally different from fixing possible bugs in the 3D engine or in the scripting engine, you name it, I don't know what bugs there are in, if any. If BIS rightfully thinks that fixing the possible bugs in their product is way more important than rushing to release some â€dev tool†package, then I thank them very much for being such a professional team which actually plans what they are doing.

If this post offends you then good. Maybe it is needed to get you realize what you are saying, what kind of backhanded favour you are making to BIS when you are talking about community fixing their product. I think that the worst thing BIS could do now would be to trust the quality of their product into the hands of the â€communityâ€. Fixing the product is BIS' job, and they know it **** well because they are not hairy and smelly open-source maniacs, they are professionals. That's why they are working their ***** off trying to improve the product. Now, give them pros some time to do their job and stop harassing them. I have full confidence in BIS that when I get the product some time next year (I don't care much exactly when, take your time) it works well and it sucks me in, just like Operation Flashpoint did.

Thanks,

Baddo.

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

erm sorry but maybe you missunderstood something.

Messiah and Tigershark said that BIS should release the DEV tools that modders and addonmakers can start addonmaking not fixing bugs!

DEV Tools: Tools to make mods and addons with.

These tools will be released and have nothing to do with the ArmA Core. The Core, thats the part only BIS can change. And they will do.

Messiah and Tigershark just wanted to say that BIS should release the tools that we can concentrate on addonmaking, and BIS concentrate in bug fixing, fixes on core and stuff.

[Zombie_Mod 0]

Sorry I can't do anything else but cry and laugh at the same time when I read the posts you guys are making here about how BIS should do their job – I mean come on now, people, â€GIVE US THE DEV TOOLS AND THE COMMUNITY WILL FIX THE PRODUCTâ€!? Stop that ******** talk right now! BIS is supposed to be a professional software development company and not a bunch of hairy and smelly open-source maniacs who release a half-***** product and then give it to others to finish it.

100% agreed. Just what I've always said.

I work as a software engineer and my company employs pro testers using pro tester tools. If I write something substandard my arse is booted.

I would expect any company that sells to the military to have the same exacting standards, or better. But I think not in this case.

Some of the bugs I've seen are so obvious, one can only ask - was there a proper test process? If the test "team" didn't find the defects such as "cannot see through grass, so whats the point of it" or "suicidal RPG soldiers attack BMP when next to them", sack em now. And if the bug was discovered during test but swept under the carpet, sack the project manager.

The more I play ArmA the more I wonder what the hell BIS have been doing. How hard would it have been to pay BAS, the JAM team and the Dynamic range sound effects/ ECP, to do some more cool stuff, get the existing coders to tweak the internal AI plenty, add some fancy DX9 stuff and release it as ArmA??

Furthermore, I think whoever gave ArmA 8 out of 10 as it stands is either on crack or BIS sycophants. IMHO the 55% score was about right. And this is from a man who LOVES Flashpoint, I'm not some 12 year old who just got on the scene last year.

The more cynical of us might be thinking that this half-finished product was released to take advantage of the Xmas period when kids have more money...

[baddo 0]

I understood very well what they were saying. I was not directly referring to them only, there are other posts around these forums too.

I believe that at BIS, there are no special development team for the "dev tools" but they are the same people who work with the game engine. Probably there is no ready "dev tool" package to be released right now, so somebody must do some work before a release can happen. I'd say, work on the game engine and not on the "dev tools", if you have to make a choice.

Thanks,

Baddo.

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

ok sure but it sounded like you were reffering to tigersharks and messiahs post. no problem

for myself I would say finish the mod tools and then continue working on the engine. I mean, mod tools are done faster then making the whole engine bugfree. so if they would finish the mod tools first, there would be one thing less on their "todo-list".

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

I believe what I was trying to articulate is a more proactive approach to these issues rather than whining about the quality.

If we could assist in fixing minor bugs (such as the driver positioning in the 5 tonne truck) to allow them to concentrate on the more fundamental problems then this would benefit all of us.

Quote[/b] ] What really sticks to my eyes here in these forums is the unbeliavable attitude of many people who are saying that the community will fix the product if only they get the â€dev toolsâ€. Now, in your dreams maybe that will work, but in the reality it is not an option. Step down from your fantasies for a moment and look what you are saying.

I'm sorry...who are you? You've made material for OFP before and know the limits of what can and cannot be done? I find your arrogant musings on this a little immature as well as uninformed. You are of course entitled to your opinion but not at the expense of insulting others about what they might or might not know about a topic you have demonstrated you have little knowledge about.

You don't even have the game or know what definitively what bugs are in it!

Quote[/b] ]If this post offends you then good. Maybe it is needed to get you realize what you are saying, what kind of backhanded favour you are making to BIS when you are talking about community fixing their product. I think that the worst thing BIS could do now would be to trust the quality of their product into the hands of the â€communityâ€.

Again with the arrogance. Is it necessary to offend people in order to get your point across?

I think you might some good points about the general state of the game industry and their obligations to deliver quality products but it they are diminished significantly by your approach to discussing this.

My suggestions were an expression of a willingness to help. A proactive approach as mentioned before.

Quote[/b] ]Now, give them pros some time to do their job and stop harassing them.

I hardly think my comments could be categorised as harrassment. If anything they presented options that BIS may consider now or for future releases of products.

Quote[/b] ]I have full confidence in BIS that when I get the product some time next year (I don't care much exactly when, take your time) it works well and it sucks me in, just like Operation Flashpoint did.

As do I. Reference my diamond in the rough comments. I think your post was more directed as an "anti whining" post which is ok. But I don't think the attack on constructive options for consideration is warranted with such venom.

I look forward to more balanced, constructive and mature debate about this topic.

Tigershark

*edited for typos*

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry...who are you?

*wipes tear from eye*

classic - I spent 30 minutes musing over how I was going to reply, but that one phrase summed up everything I wanted to write down.

[craigsa 0]

Sorry to get onvolved but have you ever heard of ECP and FFUR Add on made by the OFP community ? They are awesome add ons and made the game what it is today so maybe go and play the game with these add ons and then you will appreciate the community.

By the way I do think BIS are mature adults and really in the end appreciate the community pointing out the bugs so they can actually make this game into the brilliant game it is destined to be.

[dm 9]

Much as it pains me to do so, I'd have to agree (all be it not in such an "extremeist" fashion) with baddo and zombie.

Yes, it would be cool to have the "dev tools" (and by that I mean O2, Visitor, a new texture tool and a new binarize) so that we could start finalising content for the new engine.

But, people here seem to think that BI is a 4 man team. Yes, it IS a small team but as a rule 2d/3d artists != programmers and programmers != 2d/3d artists. Just because the programmers have a list of problems they need to fix does not mean that the artists are unable to create any new content.

I also disagree with this "if we had the tools we could FIX things" point of view. Unless someone writes a new p3dedit or odol explorer to deal with the modified formats, we'll be in exactly the same situation as we were before - We've got O2, but we cant open the game content (and we have no 0.36 demo to take models from this time). "All" we could do if we had tools is add content to the game, nothing more, nothing less.

I also have to agree with Messy, it would be MUCH better to wait for the tools, rather than have them now. The community seems to have brought the same addon frenzy from OFP (understandable, since most of us are OFP'ers) and I can only see this as a bad thing. Once again we'll be in a situation where 90% of the addons get used for so called "combat photography" and only 10% get used (regularly) in missions or multiplayer. Personally I'd much rather have fewer (better) addons which were used a lot more.

As for beta testing, it does make me wonder how the testers could have missed so many simple, glaring bugs. Maybe thats a risk you take when recruiting testers from a hardcore fanbase? In that they're so used to the engine and its obscurities, that they simply dont notice half the stuff that hasnt been fixed as they are too used to ignoring it in the previous incarnation of the software. (It is however, NO excuse for the apparently "poor" job the testers appear to have done tho)

Anyho, enough of my rambling, it'll only make more people hate me

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

Point and counterpoint. See how civilised discussion can be

[Messiah 2]

I also have to agree with Messy, it would be MUCH better to wait for the tools, rather than have them now. The community seems to have brought the same addon frenzy from OFP (understandable, since most of us are OFP'ers) and I can only see this as a bad thing. Once again we'll be in a situation where 90% of the addons get used for so called "combat photography" and only 10% get used (regularly) in missions or multiplayer. Personally I'd much rather have fewer (better) addons which were used a lot more.

hear hear

perhaps with this delay, it will allow those who are eager to mod for Arma to sit back, relax and take stock of what is required with the new engine and learn how to utilise it... I've spent most days learning from other games and their mods to see how normal maps et al work and how to use them to your advantage...

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

I don't hate ya DM......much.

[deanosbeano 0]

but what about the people who have waited months for the tools with models waiting to be installed in arma ?

Must they watch once again while the VBS elite make a remake of

cwc campaign with the tools ?

what made ofp great where the community was concerned was ,you could playanything from legoland to starwars to cops and robbers yup as varied as that.:)

why the hell on earth should anyone want to play cwc on arma ?

if you havent already played it on flash you musta played it in elite.

We are 1 month into arma and already its being stifled because of some weird idea that What ArmA needs is the cwc campaign, lmao

if the cwc campaign was what sold ofp and kept ofp going then i lived under a rock.

my view is let the tools out and let the originality begin.

in my opinion there are three reasons for people not wanting tools released.

1 they dont have the game and fear they will fall behind

2 there working on cwc and want to remain elite

3 they fear the missing addon error or worse

my own two pence.

[Messiah 2]

where did you get the impression that the CWC team are elite? All I see is a motly collection of some rather brilliant addon makers, and then alot of wannabe's who see this as a chance to increase their inflated ego... but thats my personal opinion.

if BIS feel the need to create Cold War Rehashed (I prefer this name) then so be it - if they feel the need to fling the tools out to some of these guys to see it not used and them dissapear... so be it. The concept of reworking CWC into Arma was going to happen one way or another, lets face it.

I've never been bothered not being part of any 'elite' crowd, because simply it only exists in their own minds.