Helicopters in AA

[colligpip 0]

But BIS has prolly a good reason to do so.

Between "we want OFP back!" and "We want realistic choppers", you can guess BI is quite confused by what community wants, tbh.

Well said !!

er some sort of server side (as in server decides) realism slider would be nice and please everybody.

Bf2 style all the way to realistic flight model and avionic setting.

Asking a bit much i know.

[Amalka 0]

I made a video of me flying that mission. Really can't see any issue there:

Lol, sorry but a single man with PK would shoot you down at once during your hoover beside the convoy.

I know. But I wasn't showing combat tactics, I was showing maneuverability of the 1.02 controls. I suppose a few people got that. You didn't, obviously.

Well, no, I'm just replying that you can't see any issue on the 1.02 flight model. Try to attack the convoy with FFAR's im MP against few people armed with PK's or sitting in BMP/T72 by the MG on the tower...

You can't survive that. Still no issue? Come on, you need to minimize the time spent in the hot area, but with the todays flight model you need almost to hoover or fly below 50kmh to actually hit something with Hydra rockets.

The choppers now in ArmA are a weapon only when carying guided rockets. With other weapon systems they are useless. Even AI shoots you down with the main tank canon when attacking with FFARs.

[maxqubit 1]

I made a video of me flying that mission. Really can't see any issue there:

Lol, sorry but a single man with PK would shoot you down at once during your hoover beside the convoy.

I know. But I wasn't showing combat tactics, I was showing maneuverability of the 1.02 controls. I suppose a few people got that. You didn't, obviously. ;)

Well, no, I'm just replying that you can't see any issue on the 1.02 flight model. Try to attack the convoy with FFAR's im MP against few people armed with PK's or sitting in BMP/T72 by the MG on the tower...

You can't survive that. Still no issue? Come on, you need to minimize the time spent in the hot area, but with the todays flight model you need almost to hoover or fly below 50kmh to actually hit something with Hydra rockets.

The choppers now in ArmA are a weapon only when carying guided rockets. With other weapon systems they are useless. Even AI shoots you down with the main tank canon when attacking with FFARs.

1.02 was released dec 15. It is now dec 18.

Perhaps even you should dedicate some time and try to 'master' the art-of-hitting-something-with-ffar's

This FM discussion gets a bit irritating in the way that it seems like ppl are a bit on the lazy side of things. I could be wrong as i'm neither a 'realism' freak nor a very good gamer ... but even with my 'skills' i can get around in ArmA reasonably well (veteran, 1st person only, etc. etc.)

[madmossy 0]

Anyone have tips for piloting choppers, I can move around ok (crash more often than not though :P) but when it comes to slowing down/stopping I always overshoot my target by miles.

Im using keyboard/mouse mainly but do have a cheapy joystick at hand.

[DaSquade 0]

Quote[/b] ]Anyone have tips for piloting choppers, I can move around ok (crash more often than not though :P) but when it comes to slowing down/stopping I always overshoot my target by miles.

Im using keyboard/mouse mainly but do have a cheapy joystick at hand.

Well like i posted a few houres back, PRACTICE (x100). We all need to get over it and accept the new fly behavior. Again, realistic or not (i honestly don't knew...although some things like banking is more realistic imho).

Anyway, make yourself a practice mission (takeoff, pickup group, manouver trail, unload, provide cover with manouvers (+ refuel/repair), extraction and a final landing. I did this yesterday, and imho my current flight skills are improved a lot. I hardly crash anymore .

What really helps (beside trying to adjust your joystick sensitivity) is to have the auto hover ON/OFF buttons on your joystick, where you can access them easly. This helps you a lot in case you over do things or starting to loose controle (banking etc). Putting it on (if even for a sec or more) helps getting the heli in controle, witch saves you out a lot of trouble...

After a while you won't need the auto hover anymore, or in extreme moments.

Imho joystick is the way to go, as i think you will have better controle (rudder etc) during manouvers. But again, practice, practice, pra...

Have fun .

PS: For me i found the UH60 the best one to learn. It is more stable and 'forgiveble' then the MH60. But my personal tast.

[feersum.endjinn 6]

I guess there's always room for improvement but since focus of OFP/ArmA has always been more on infantry combat, I'd say flight model is pretty good after you redefine control mappings so that rudder and bank are not connected.

Could you please explain how to do this, shorlty? Didn't find a documentation for that by now.

Here you go:

http://img138.imagevenue.com/img.php....4lo.jpg

edit: That is for flying with mouse btw. But same idea applies to joystick, just clear "Links" and "Rechts"...

[Jigsaw 0]

I made a video of me flying that mission. Really can't see any issue there:

Lol, sorry but a single man with PK would shoot you down at once during your hoover beside the convoy.

I know. But I wasn't showing combat tactics, I was showing maneuverability of the 1.02 controls. I suppose a few people got that. You didn't, obviously.

Well, no, I'm just replying that you can't see any issue on the 1.02 flight model. Try to attack the convoy with FFAR's im MP against few people armed with PK's or sitting in BMP/T72 by the MG on the tower...

You can't survive that. Still no issue? Come on, you need to minimize the time spent in the hot area, but with the todays flight model you need almost to hoover or fly below 50kmh to actually hit something with Hydra rockets.

The choppers now in ArmA are a weapon only when carying guided rockets. With other weapon systems they are useless. Even AI shoots you down with the main tank canon when attacking with FFARs.

Well, I didn't try attacking a convoy with MP players, I attacked a convoy with stupid AI. I would have and could have used completely different tactics if it had been a different situation. The flight model wouldn't have prevented me from doing so.

[feersum.endjinn 6]

I made short video how helicopter behaves after just reconfiguring controls. Now when you bank helicopter on hover, it will not turn but instead will move sideways as it should. Turning helicopter at hover requires now explicitly using rudder control.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a9FheZALT90

[brabax 0]

Hello Guys,

as a real helo pilot, I was not very pleased with the flight model in 1.01 and below. That changed with 1.02.

You now have precise analouge control over the cyclic and periodic controls (I'm using a joystick for flying) - hovering is pure fun again. the only issue I have is that automatic pitch=power increase when you lower the nose and vice-versa. If the guys at BIS wanted to simulate the 'tranlational lift' - effect they dont get it correctly

But I can live with that. Even autorotations are working again.

Now it's time to fix that CTD problem which kills ArmA randomly after a few minutes of play...

Have fun flying !

-

brabax

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I made a video of me flying that mission. Really can't see any issue there:

Lol, sorry but a single man with PK would shoot you down at once during your hoover beside the convoy.

I know. But I wasn't showing combat tactics, I was showing maneuverability of the 1.02 controls. I suppose a few people got that. You didn't, obviously.

Well, no, I'm just replying that you can't see any issue on the 1.02 flight model. Try to attack the convoy with FFAR's im MP against few people armed with PK's or sitting in BMP/T72 by the MG on the tower...

You can't survive that. Still no issue? Come on, you need to minimize the time spent in the hot area, but with the todays flight model you need almost to hoover or fly below 50kmh to actually hit something with Hydra rockets.

The choppers now in ArmA are a weapon only when carying guided rockets. With other weapon systems they are useless. Even AI shoots you down with the main tank canon when attacking with FFARs.

Well, to be honest, unguided rockets are very inaccurate IRL. FFARs were never meant to be used as AT weapons (initially developed for air-to-air use). They're much more effective at suppressing ground troops and light vehicles over a wider area, much like artillery. In fact that's the whole reason behind the US's APKWS program, which is intended to upgrade the Hydra family of rockets into precision weapons (laser guided, like the original hellfires). But normally the rockets would have to be fired in numbers to be effective, and in order to be accurate (enough to hit a tank-sized target at least) you would have to get dangerously close. The whole point of using guided missiles (Hellfire especially) is to allow helicopters to engage tanks and other stationary and mobile ground targets with precision from further ranges, and usually from relative safety. My point is that there's nothing unrealistic about how badly the FFARs suck. It's practically the same situation IRL, and you should have to use guided missiles. And there's nothing wrong with the flight model in that sense, IRL the rockets are mounted on adjustable pylons so they can be aimed (relatively) more precisely. If they weren't (and were instead fixed), there would be no chance in hell for any chopper pilot to use them accurately without being extremely close.

[Left-Skid-Low 0]

Hello Guys,

as a real helo pilot, I was not very pleased with the flight model in 1.01 and below. That changed with 1.02.

You now have precise analouge control over the cyclic and periodic controls (I'm using a joystick for flying) - hovering is pure fun again. the only issue I have is that automatic pitch=power increase when you lower the nose and vice-versa. If the guys at BIS wanted to simulate the 'tranlational lift' - effect they dont get it correctly

But I can live with that. Even autorotations are working again.

Now it's time to fix that CTD problem which kills ArmA randomly after a few minutes of play...

Have fun flying !

-

brabax

I fly helicopters in real life also and agree with you 100%. It's actually kind of fun flying in 1.02 now that we are in control of the aircraft and not the other way around. I haven't noticed the power increase with forward cyclic, I'll have to check that out. I know this is pushing it, but I wish there were a way to correctly fly out of a tail rotor failure, either cut the throttle and do an auto or get airspeed and fly out of it. Also would be nice to do running landings in the UH-60 without taking a ton of damage.

[Left-Skid-Low 0]

Anyone have tips for piloting choppers, I can move around ok (crash more often than not though :P) but when it comes to slowing down/stopping I always overshoot my target by miles.

Im using keyboard/mouse mainly but do have a cheapy joystick at hand.

Plan ahead and anticipate when you need to adjust power, a UH-60 moving at 130 knots is going to take some time to stop. Remember, you don't need to fly around at full power, in fact I'd recommend cruising around 70% for a few reasons.

1. When you are flying low level and need to get over an obstacle or hill you still have 30% power in reserve with your airspeed to get over it.

2. Your airspeed will be slightly slower but you will be able to make tighter turns.

3. You have better visibility out of some helicopters because you are more level, like the UH-60 has that crossbar in the windscreen that obstructs the view if you are pitched down too much.

This is how I slow down for a landing.

1. Adjust to a speed a little slower than you normally cruise at, whatever you are comfortable with, and judge when you will need to slow down more to make the landing.

2. On the inside view, look all the way down at your feet, lower the collective (amount depends on how quickly you want to stop) and instead of letting the helicopter descend, use aft cyclic to maintain the same altitude or a slight descent, you can use the vertical speed indicator gauge inside to see if you are climbing or descending. You can also look straight out at the horizon and get an idea if you are climbing or not. This is how you are gonna slow the helicopter down.

3. Again depending on how quick you want to land, slow it down to maybe about 60 kmph with the method in step 2, and eventually it will start to fall through, the trick is to know when its going to fall through and bring the power in early and should terminate into a hover or slight running landing. Don't forget that you have a huge tail boom behind you when you get near the ground, you will need to level out accordingly so you dont stick it into the ground.

The numbers aren't exact and I'm still getting the hang of it like everyone else, but maybe Ill go ingame and get some speeds for you but they don't matter that much once you get the feel for it.

[Stealth3 0]

Quote[/b] ]I fly helicopters in real life also and agree with you 100%. It's actually kind of fun flying in 1.02 now that we are in control of the aircraft and not the other way around. I haven't noticed the power increase with forward cyclic, I'll have to check that out. I know this is pushing it, but I wish there were a way to correctly fly out of a tail rotor failure, either cut the throttle and do an auto or get airspeed and fly out of it. Also would be nice to do running landings in the UH-60 without taking a ton of damage.

We have here a 17 year old "expert helicopter pilot" who barely got out of high school.

Mind telling us how are helicopters handling "realistic" in ARMA?

I must admit that there is an improvement in 1.02 over 1.00, but far from enjoyable.

Other than flying around, and landing, theres not much you can do with a chopper.

Being accurate with a chopper and hitting something while flying is close to impossible. (Using mouse and keyboard).

And because of that, the helicopter is in control of you.

Conclusion: OFP helicopter handling was better than ARMA, and more fun.

Fighting against a chopper in ARMA is close to impossible, so you can forget that in MP.

Is anyone able to dogfight in the "camel dogfight" MP map? To me its impossible to fly and hit anything at the same time.

The new patch really cut down any hope for me that this game will be improved for the better. So I decided that I won't "get used" to this new interface like most of you here, and just let it go instead.

OFP was ugly, but OFP had a solid gameplay you could actually enjoy. ARMA on the other hand is like the bottom of a sinking ship, just broken.

So If I want to play a good coop, CTF, or CTI, OFP's the game for me.

[shadow 6]

Since we dont have a throttle and collective indicator, here are some speeds I've noticed work very well (with still plenty reserves):

100-150km/h is a nice cruising speed for a UH-60.

80-130 km/h is nice for cruising in a MH-6.

I recomend slowing down to 50km/h on approach for landing. If you're unsure about how to land within a small closed area (between trees and such), slow down to a hover or about 10km/h and descend.

With the current flight-model and damage-model you cant fly any faster than 50-60km/h on touchdown with a MH-6, but remember the faster you fly the softer the touchdown will have to be or you'll sustain damage. Also make sure the ground is flat.

I recommend practice touch'n'go at the airstrip and practice landings on H-pads, then move onto rooftops.

Basicly If you can master a landing you can master everything else.

Quote[/b] ]Being accurate with a chopper and hitting something while flying is close to impossible. (Using mouse and keyboard).

And because of that, the helicopter is in control of you.

I guess my will is stronger then, because its the other way around for me

Its exactly like Left-Skid-Low says. You have to think ahead and anticipate the helicopter's move and counter that before it happens.

Push cyclic left to sideslip left, then before you're at the spot you want to hover over you start countering with opposite cyclic. If you time it right with the right amount of input the helicopter will hover exactly where you want it.

[Left-Skid-Low 0]

Quote[/b] ]I fly helicopters in real life also and agree with you 100%. It's actually kind of fun flying in 1.02 now that we are in control of the aircraft and not the other way around. I haven't noticed the power increase with forward cyclic, I'll have to check that out. I know this is pushing it, but I wish there were a way to correctly fly out of a tail rotor failure, either cut the throttle and do an auto or get airspeed and fly out of it. Also would be nice to do running landings in the UH-60 without taking a ton of damage.

We have here a 17 year old "expert helicopter pilot" who barely got out of high school.

Mind telling us how are helicopters handling "realistic" in ARMA?

I must admit that there is an improvement in 1.02 over 1.00, but far from enjoyable.

Other than flying around, and landing, theres not much you can do with a chopper.

Being accurate with a chopper and hitting something while flying is close to impossible. (Using mouse and keyboard).

And because of that, the helicopter is in control of you.

Conclusion: OFP helicopter handling was better than ARMA, and more fun.

Whoa buddy calm down, relax, and start breathing. Who said it was realistic, I don't think I did. I haven't found any sim you can get on the PC that is "realistic" in the sense that is just like flying in a real helicopter, it can't be done unless its a full motion sim and even then it wouldn't be the same. If you are using a mouse and keyboard I recommend getting a stick, I haven't actually tried the mouse and keyboard method but I'm pleased with the stick. I will say though, I wish the tail rotor wasn't as ineffective as it is at higher speeds, would make hitting targets with FFARs easier.

Oh BTW, I made it through High School just fine but I have to admit that I was a slacker at times. I didn't know I was only 17, glad somebody is keeping track, just don't tell that to the FAA.

[twisted 127]

why, when flying the choppers in ArmA is there a bounce back action - like if you are flying at about 100 in the cobra, and you execute a hard turn to reduce speed why does the helicopter sometime yo-yo back?

another question, is the deadzone setting better high or low?

i enjoy the new heli settings in Arma, good work BIS. if anything I'd like to see a bit more response in the rudder at higher speeds. i find helicopters in Arma a lot more challanging and more fun to use. much better than ofp imho.

[pwablo 0]

Well I have been deliberately keeping off this thread until I have had a few days to evaluate the differences in 1.02 FM.

Here is my take on it.

Pros.

1. The notchy pitch control now feels more smooth.

2. Range of banking angle is now much improved. The freedom of movement that this now allows has IMO contributed greatly to the flying experience.

3. Range of AOT is now also much improved as above.

4. Responsiveness of both Pitch and Roll axis is now much improved.

4. The helo's now feel much more stable at slow speeds, and IMO inspires more confidence when your near the ground.

5. Inverted flight is now possible

6. The badly implemented bouncy ground effect in 1.01 is now gone.

Conns.

1. Rudder still feels pretty ineffective over 70-80 mph, which is not a huge problem as it is fairly realistic, however as previously mentioned it makes FFAR's and Manual MG pretty hard to use unless you are within the envelope of rudder control.

It is conceivable that by doing this BIS felt it was the most expedient way to contain the helos from being an overly powerful platform. Nobody can deny that helos were pretty much Pwn Platforms in OFP, regardless of the ordinance used. I for one can live with the rudder the way it is. Its nice to have a challenge, and it just means flaring the helo early and harder to scrub off the speed as opposed to using some yaw too. I'm glad to see the helos don't balloon up as much when doing this with the correct anticipation on the collective.

2. Collective is still quite mushy, and does'nt command much authority. Its possible that the helo's maximum transitional speed is governed by the effectiveness of this input to some degree, so maybe increasing the overall thrust available by the collective, will push the helo's past their maximum achievable speed. If this is the case, I can understand why the collective is the way it is.

As LSL pointed out, anticipation is the key.

In conclusion I think the V 1.02 patch and the improvements we have all witnessed to the FM alone, is a testament to BIS's commitment to the title and the community. So I say Well done and Thank You BIS

Cheers

[Left-Skid-Low 0]

One thing I've been wondering about, is that people keep saying you can autorotate in ArmA. The only way I can figure out how to do it correctly is if you already have the collective full down before the engine quits. They way I've been experimenting is setting minimum fuel (about 6 seconds or so) and it can be done without the collective bottomed out if you are low and slow enough but you don't get any effect from the collective input after the engine quits. The only way to cushion the landing with the collective is to have it bottomed out beforehand from what I've seen so far. Anybody else have different results?

[Mobious 0]

Update

I spoke with a few of our officers in our air unit, these guys are currently pilots and have been pilots in the military. They all have time in the littlebird...

In the best way that I could I explained how the helicopters flew in ARMA, I was on the phone with them for more than an hour, with my biggest point to them was not being able to use the tail rotar at high speed. They told me that is correct.. If you have forward speed and you try to give it alot of rudder the aircraft acts like a weather vein.. Meaning it wants to stay pointed into the wind. In a nutshell you really cant rudder left or right during normal forward flight. They told me to get the nose of the aircraft to turn during flight you have to use all of the controls in conjunction...

After the first of the year, 2nd week in January, I will be going out there for a ride. I will take my HD camera with me and make a movie or 2...

[Left-Skid-Low 0]

Call him back and ask him what input on the controls he makes if sees that the yarn on the windscreen or turn coordinator indicates that he is flying out of trim. Answer = the pedals, thats where you hear the saying "step on the head of the snake" or "step on the ball" to get back into trim. I think he might not have been sure what you are asking, it isn't going to turn you in the sense that it will really change your track over the ground, but you can fly in and out of trim using the anti torque pedals. Yeah they are waaaay less effective, you practically have to mash them into the chin bubble but you can change the heading (not course).

[twisted 127]

Update

I spoke with a few of our officers in our air unit, these guys are currently pilots and have been pilots in the military. They all have time in the littlebird...

In the best way that I could I explained how the helicopters flew in ARMA, I was on the phone with them for more than an hour, with my biggest point to them was not being able to use the tail rotar at high speed. They told me that is correct.. If you have forward speed and you try to give it alot of rudder the aircraft acts like a weather vein.. Meaning it wants to stay pointed into the wind. In a nutshell you really cant rudder left or right during normal forward flight. They told me to get the nose of the aircraft to turn during flight you have to use all of the controls in conjunction...

After the first of the year, 2nd week in January, I will be going out there for a ride. I will take my HD camera with me and make a movie or 2...

sounds like BIS got the flight model almost right.

what did your mates mean about "They told me to get the nose of the aircraft to turn during flight you have to use all of the controls in conjunction..." and can we replicate this in ArmA?

[Puma VII 0]

The lowspeed handling feels alot better.  By better, I mean I feel like I have control of the helicopter.  

The thing that bugs me though, is that if I turn the helicopter, the nose drops.  So whenever I make a turn at high speed, the nose drops faster than I can compensate with the mouse (moving the mouse up as fast as I can, the nose still drops, then I get to the end of my reach and have to pick the mouse up again, the nose drops even faster, and I crash).

I loved it in 1.01 when I could just put the UH60MG at an angle and point out targets to the MG gunner as we orbit an area.  Now when I put UH60MG at an angle I have to continually pull up (because the nose drops).  So if I go to the command view to point out targets to the MG gunner, I stop pulling up, the nose goes down, the helicopter accelerates right into the ground.  Slightly frustrating, even if that is realistic.

I fly with the mouse and keyboard.  I fly fixed wing.  Never flew a helicopter - probably wouldn't be around to post if I had!  Very impressed by BIS and the work they have done and continue to do.

[EDcase 87]

I agree that V1.0.2 is a great improvement and helos are now quite usable ...but...

Why does yaw affect roll?   So using rudder will make you roll in the same direction.  This is not correct.  This is most noticeable in the Ka-50 and AH-1.  The Blackhawk and Littlebird seem better.

To confirm, rudder(yaw) WILL become less effective at higher speeds and above approx 100knots a helo will fly just like a fixed wing aircraft.  In fact all the controls should become less responsive the faster you go. (not so much to lose control of course)

WELL DONE BIS!!!  It'll keep getting better...

[Mobious 0]

Quote[/b] ]Call him back and ask him what input on the controls he makes if sees that the yarn on the windscreen or turn coordinator indicates that he is flying out of trim. Answer = the pedals, thats where you hear the saying "step on the head of the snake" or "step on the ball" to get back into trim. I think he might not have been sure what you are asking, it isn't going to turn you in the sense that it will really change your track over the ground, but you can fly in and out of trim using the anti torque pedals.  Yeah they are waaaay less effective, you practically have to mash them into the chin bubble but you can change the heading (not course).

Yeah I may have not explained it well enough.. He did say that the pedals are used to keep you in trim. And also that you could mash down on them hard to get your nose to turn at say 125mph but it would take you out of trim and make for a bumpy ride because the nose wants to stay pointed in the direction of travel because of the wind.

Quote[/b] ]what did your mates mean about "They told me to get the nose of the aircraft to turn during flight you have to use all of the controls in conjunction..." and can we replicate this in ArmA?

What he ment is to use not only your pedals but your stick (cyclic'sp' to turn the nose in the direction you want to go. Yes we can do this in ARMA...

[Jigsaw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I must admit that there is an improvement in 1.02 over 1.00, but far from enjoyable.

Other than flying around, and landing, theres not much you can do with a chopper.

Being accurate with a chopper and hitting something while flying is close to impossible. (Using mouse and keyboard).

And because of that, the helicopter is in control of you.

Just for protocol: mouse and keyboard are just not the way to fly a chopper! It's a makeshift solution at best! If you wanna have fun with the choppers, you'll need a joystick with rudder and throttle. If you are not willing to make that investment and thus profit from the enhanced flight model, you really are better off with OFP, I guess.

I just find it hilarious that people are willing to spend hundreds of bucks on new graphic cards and CPUs, but when it comes to spending 30 bucks on a stick, most of them buckle out.