My idea : An open-source mod

[DBR_ONIX 0]

I just read the Invasion 1944, when an interview pretty much insults people who have.. taken an interest in a mod, you have to think they might be doing something wrong... Flicking back to the first page, they say (somewhat indirectly, don't remeber it word-for-word) uninformed people are largely to blame for this - Which makes sense, rumours and such are bad..

What is the most asked, most annoying question a mod team can be asked?

"When is it going to be released??"

There is a lot of talent in the OFP modding community (If you disagree, look around these forums, or any other OFP site, there is a lot of impressive stuff, for such an "old" engine). If someone has a problem with a particular script, or can't get a texture onto a model right, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be willing and happy to help.

[i could go on for a while like thus, but I'll get to the point in a second..]

Imagine if someone could just grab a p3d, remove a bug, or add something, reupload it for approval (Although some kind of archival system would render this unnessiary. Think how Wikipedia works, but rather than page moification, it's a new model being updated)

I don't know how feasable this would be, but we setup a server somewhere.

On this, we have something similar to CVS ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System ) server, possibly web-based.

This allows people to check-out a model (Just warns someone who also checks out this model someone might be working on it, and their version may be overwritten if they check it back in)

When someone checks out a model, or a script, they work on it, upload it to the server (checking it back in/commiting it)

Obviously there would have to be some kind of way to go back to previous versions, should someone replace all the files with rubbish, for example. But hopefully the community would be mature enough for this not to be an issue.

So, theres my idea. How will this solve the "problems" I stated at the start of this post? Simple :

Obviously, if people can grab the models and work on them, they can help people with problems simply.

If people can simply download the entire, if uncomplete mod, they can see how far it's progressed (No, people will NOT complain along the lines of "OMG WTF IT'S NOT WORKING!!11", like a lot of mods seem think, scaring them away from releaing beta versions and such)

It'll also give the modders a new reply to "When will it be done" : "Not sure, why not help out and get it done faster!"

I don't see why this wouldn't work. Okay it's hardly perfect for a very specific mod where everything must be completely realstic!! etc. But for a "fun" mod, it should work

A smaller version of this idea. Someone starts of with a pbo containing a p3d, a config file, a texture, and a mission folder, with the mission.sqm file, a script, and breifing folder.

The work on it for a few days, then transfer it to the next person on [a] list, who then works on it for a few days, who then transfers it to the next... etc etc. Each person just improves and adds to the previous person.

Think chinese whispers, but with OFP modding.

The open-source mod might be a little far fetched, maybe with Armed Assault? But hte chinese-whisper-mod seems extremely possible.. Anyone interested?

- Ben

[Abs_01 0]

Just a quick concern, how will you be able to guarantee that the next person who works on the addon will not degrade the quality of the work already done?

Abs

[j w 0]

Maybe you release template textures, scripts etc, wich are easy to modify, so you can change it to fit whatever you want.

As I understood (in theory), there is going to be a mod released, with all open-source, not like 100ppl making some stuff and then it becomes a mod?

Sounds like a good idea to me...

JW

[Blackbuck 9]

i agree i think it would be a good idea for the community so as novices can get in on the act to

[UNN 0]

@DBR_ONIX

So when are you going to start this open source Mod?

When will it be finished?

[Jackal326 1181]

In theory its a good idea. In practise I don't see it ever working out. Everyone has their own unique style of modelling - some people prefer high-detail (high poly-count) models, others prefer simple models with just the bare minimum of faces. So, imagine one person updates one model from the pack, say, everyone's favourite; the M4A1. They put a lot of work into it, and increase the detail in it to say 3000 faces. Say someone picks up another weapon model, say the M16A2, and they think "Hmm, this is rather high poly at 2,000 faces" and then cut it down to say 1000. You end up with two completely different standards. Multiply this by the number of people you'd end up modelling, not to mention texturing and coding, and you'd end up with something along the lines of a "Compilation Mod" which would consist of completely different works, crammed together under one 'roof'.

I can see where you're coming from, and on the other hand, your idea that I44 are blaming the community for their lack of releases. What people forget is, making an addon, not to mention a full-scale conversion mod takes time. Its not an over-night process. What the community needs to realise is, there is one HELL of a difference between being able to take screenshots of something, e.g. an infantry unit you've included in the mod, and it being at a standard at which the authors are willing to use it. What seems to be the case is people see the latest screenshots and say, "That looks awesome, I want that NOW!". Their impatience, the constant questions of "When will it be released?" does get annoying yes, and personally I feel the tone of the "I44 Booklet" isn't exactly the best (as you put it, it just seems to be a dig at the community that has supported them for several years).

I'm going to hit the SUBMIT button now before I say something I will regret.

[-)rStrangelove 0]

A cvs system open to the internet community will never work (that long).

Rules of the infamous WWW:

1. Make it public and it will be hacked

2. Give them a finger and they'll take your hand

3. Let them decide and there'll be endless debates

4. Be generous and you'll be flamed

I agree that mod development should be more open minded and let community submit ideas/addons to them, but still the mod core team needs full control, otherwise it'll out of control pretty quickly.

Personally i think those MINI MODS we see lately are the future.

Monster mods (20+ ppl making lots of campaigns, addons, sounds, music soundtracks, videos etc) are just too big for hobby developers who have normal jobs to do.

Small, flexible teams that are releasing some addons and a handful of missions are the most successful. And what starts small doesn't need to stay that way forever.

The real problem with monster mods is just that the mod leader (or whoever wrote that design doc) wants too much.

[Sennacherib 0]

i don't like the idea. because when you spend a long time to make something, you don't want to see, someone destroy or modify your job.

[DKM Jaguar 0]

Exactly, and you get people deciding other mods are open source, when the mod team themselves didn't say so.

This idea is nice though.

[.kju 3244]

cvs is "outdated". use svn (subversion) instead (get tortoiseSVN).

the WGL mod uses:

svn

trac

nightly builds

we are open to submissions, contributions, joining the team etc.

yet basic project management will always be required and is done by the core dev team.

[Tom_48_97 523]

It worth the reflexion, why not.

But you talk about hack and other copies, but when we can talk of hacking in An open source ?

[max power 21]

There is a number of problems with this approach in game art. I'm working on an open source game and have been for quite some time. I also participated in someone else's project for a while. It doesn't work because someone needs to keep artistic control. Someone needs to be the art director, and all artistic decisions must be approved by that person (or by a number of people who are acting as the art director). It's fine for different people to complete the different asset stages- this is an arrangement that works out well in the business world. You don't really want someone messing with something that you are working on. It's not for some random person off of the web to decide whether or not your work is up to a reasonable standard. That is for the person who is in charge of art, for the sake of continuity and artistic vision.

Sometimes it's much better just to start from scratch than to build on someone else's shoddy work. I did that a couple of times, and trust me, it was a labourious and hair-ripping experience. There is more at work in a 3d model than how it looks. You have to take into account meshflow, mesh efficiency, deformability, texture coordinates and rigging. Problems with in a number of these areas can take a huge amount of time and effort to correct. Instead of balancing these things from the start, you're correcting an unbalance, which involved a lot of problem solving. The further up the line you have problems, let's say, geometry problems, the more things you have to axe. Once you start messing with the geometry, the texture coordinates and rigging completely falls apart and must be redone from the beginning.

[Shinkansen 0]

An open source could be a good idea under some rules of the thumb. Best thing would be if you can't see the difference on the model, but you can see it ingame by increasing performance. This means:

- delete isolated points

- merge near

- delete all components in normal lods

- delete all selections that are no longer in use

- delete all textures in geo, fire geo

- check lod numbers

- check smooth and sharp faces

- check points in each normal lod in relation to other addons

- search for different texture names (several versions of plane black)

- simplify geo lod (often a copy of 0.000 lod)

- simplify fire geo lod (more often a copy of 0.000 lod)

- delete or split view cargo, view pilot etc. epending on the modell

- simplify hit points lod

- check config and cargo view lods if the elements in the lods can be seen ingame

This often took only some minutes and sometimes the effect on performance ingame is great.

Oher thing would be a collection of "ready to copy" templates and solutions for adding missiles, enabling gear, afterburner, open canopy or other features that will add some flar to the addon.

Out of scope is double faces, making new lods and other things hat will need too much time.

[.kju 3244]

so mods/addons are only about models/textures?

[-)rStrangelove 0]

Well, 99% of all OpF addons are just eye candy - you hardly find any addons with missions or even campaigns. Some scripts and sounds maybe.

I hope with ArmA addon makers will start focussing more on gameplay/missions than eye candy.

[max power 21]

so mods/addons are only about models/textures?

Okay, I'm writing this post and it's turning into a little bit of a rant. I appologize for my tendency to pontificate on this subject, but it's been a source of some very heated debates for me! I'll try to keep it cool and brief.

No, but Open Source is all about programming. I'm not going to argue against Open Source on the code side. In my experience, Open Source in the programming dept. has been quite successful. Open Source in the art dept. has been quite unsuccessful, also in my experience. Open Source is good, even open art where you make your art public domain is good, but having 100 artists (or non-artists) fumble over something is quite bad. It increases development time, decreases quality control, and increases complexity. The original poster suggests giving 'the whiners' an opportunity to put their money where their mouth is. If they accept, you have to give them the total rundown, make sure that they're up to the task in the categories of talent, skill, style and tools. There is about a one in one thousand chance that they won't require constant babysitting. I'm not a programmer, and don't understand programming, so I'm not sure how much bad code there is out there... but take a look at some of the public art sites of people claiming to be freelance artists. Some of the work there is hiddeous and appauling. Even really great artists, out of their element, turn into really bad ones without even realizing it. They can't tell if their human model is anatomically incorrect because they know nothing about anatomy!

After all of the above, the best way to run the 'art department' of an amateur project is to get some reliable artists together (somehow) and to delineate tasks into a task/asset pool, each with pre-defined parameters on what the product should be like. From there, the artists will attempt to work on their asset until it is completed.

Like I said before, though, Open Source programming has seemed to be quite good, especially if you're looking for quality libraries to adapt to your own project for free, such as a graphics or sound engine. This frees you up from having to do everything from square 1.

[JdB 151]

After all of the above, the best way to run the 'art department' of an amateur project is to get some reliable artists together (somehow) and to delineate tasks into a task/asset pool, each with pre-defined parameters on what the product should be like. From there, the artists will attempt to work on their asset until it is completed.

Like in the Invasion 1944 [Addon Guidelines] (this kind of document is always a work in progress).