Was the Pope..

[JdB 151]

That is part of the problem. Most religions have adapted to modern times, but not Islam, they are very much stuck in the middle ages when it comes to behaviour and interaction with others.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

In this case, the Muslims doesn't distinguish christians and the western world. In their eyes it's the same thing, since we are living in the same community having pretty much the same values.

Really? Why are they only targeting Christian symbols then: nuns, churches effigies of the pope etc? Most of the protester's placards I've seen on TV have either had the word 'Christian' or 'Pope' on them.

If they were chucking the entire west in as well, they'd have been at least burning US flags, a McDonalds or some shit like. They usually blame anything they see as trouble caused by Westerners on the US or Israel, regardless of how much they were involved.

Admitedly they've ballsed up a bit in burning non-catholic churches, since the Pope's the head of the Catholic church only, but I bet very few of us could tell the difference between Mosques of different Islamic sects.

Seems to me that most of the lumping together of Christianity and Western states is being done by westerners themselves. A lot of the posts I've seen on various forums about this smack of the 'us Vs them' attitude, when I doubt half the people posting them have been to church once in their life, let alone a identify themselves as Catholic.

I personally don't really care what the Pope said, if it was taken out of context or how many churches get burned down (as long as nobody's hurt) since I'm not a Christian.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]You can say anything you want about christians, but the fact is that, at least to my experience, a minority of christians do what the bible tell them to. Do you really belive that most christians turn the other cheek when they're punched by someone? Do you really belive that most christians never lie?

Then they are not christians.

Oh come on...if so, then I guess christianity is so small that you can't call it a religion...

You can roughly divide christians into 3 types.

1: non-christian christians - People who claim to be christian, but who really isn't christian...they never pray, they never go to church etc...

2: christians - People who claim to be christian, and who can be considered to be. They pray, they go to church etc, however, they still don't really follow gods words.

3: christian fanatics - People who actually follow most of gods words, though they tend to not follow the most important ones...like "thou shalt not kill"...

If you then remove everyone in the world that claim to be christian, and that do not follow gods words much, you'll have very few left...

Quote[/b] ]I will not condemn those people who do bad things in the name of christianity, or fail to follow it, just like i won't condemn a murderer, or a homosexual, or anyone who goes every weekend to a disco to hunt for drunk girls.

Ah, another problem with many christians is just that...they condemn people who don't belive in god because they live a life in sins and bla bla bla, and then they go break about every of gods "rules"...and no, I'm talking about real christians...the average christian...I'm talking about  priests, I'm talking about the people who go to church...the ones who isn't real christians have the brains to not condemn people who don't live by the word of god since they've got the brain to understand that they themself, like most christians in this modern world, isn't even close to following the word of god good enough...

Quote[/b] ]No that's pretty wrong, unless you listen to false prophets like the Quakers. Catholics for example aren't allowed to use condoms, have abortions (it is officially considered "murder of the absolutely innocent" i think). So our values are pretty different.

Actually, catholics should be allowed to take abortion for a certain periode. One pope once said that a fetus wasn't to be considered life until after like...6 weeks or something like that...also the bible states that "life is in the blood", and therefor the fetus isn't "alive" until it has blood in it, which takes some time (don't remember how long...).

Quote[/b] ]Really? Why are they only targeting Christian symbols then: nuns, churches effigies of the pope etc? Most of the protester's placards I've seen on TV have either had the word 'Christian' or 'Pope' on them.

If they were chucking the entire west in as well, they'd have been at least burning US flags, a McDonalds or some shit like. They usually blame anything they see as trouble caused by Westerners on the US or Israel, regardless of how much they were involved.

If you were to protest against the country USA (not their policy or something, just their country and culture and such), would you protest outside a wal-mart, a burger king, a nike shop, Peter Average-Americans house or the US embassy? The muslims who start making a fuzz about these things often consider most people in the west, who isn't a muslim, to be christian...and even though you consider the whole country to be christian, you don't walk outside a random guys house, because not many would hear about it...

Quote[/b] ]Admitedly they've ballsed up a bit in burning non-catholic churches, since the Pope's the head of the Catholic church only, but I bet very few of us could tell the difference between Mosques of different Islamic sects.

You kind of proved his point there. They don't care to see the difference between one church or another...they consider it to be the same thing...

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Quote[/b] ]You can say anything you want about christians, but the fact is that, at least to my experience, a minority of christians do what the bible tell them to. Do you really belive that most christians turn the other cheek when they're punched by someone? Do you really belive that most christians never lie?

Quote[/b] ]

Then they are not christians.

Jesus said the following, i'll quote again:

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Quote[/b] ]Yes, people might bring up the crusades and the inquisitions and such, but IMO there's more and better examples from recent days...say, the abortion thing in USA a while back where christians blew up abortion-clinics because the clinics took life...

I will not condemn those people who do bad things in the name of christianity, or fail to follow it, just like i won't condemn a murderer, or a homosexual, or anyone who goes every weekend to a disco to hunt for drunk girls.

I am not any better.

Another main point of christianity is being humble, because none of us can 100% follow God in purity so we need to apologize and remember that we all have been bad in our lives.

Quote[/b] ]having pretty much the same values.

No that's pretty wrong, unless you listen to false prophets like the Quakers. Catholics for example aren't allowed to use condoms, have abortions (it is officially considered "murder of the absolutely innocent" i think). So our values are pretty different.

By values, I mean more community related values - acceptance of other societies, democracy and freedom of speech. All these very important values is what symbolise the western world from our point of view.

More important is, what the extremist Muslims see. They see the western world AND Christians in one piece. In fact, they hate atheists more than Christians... But their hate is primarily focused on the 'western world' (which include both 'parties'. Due to this hate, they are very easily provoked as seen in recent events.

I myself is an Atheist - or whatever you can call it. I do not believe in a God and I do not believe that you are judged by other than yourself, when you are dead. - if there is anything. On one hand, I find it quite depressing if there isn't anything on 'the other side' - but on the contrary, it is quite a relief if there isn't - It's not like we would care. I guess this is way offtopic, though. I'll end it with a couple very intelligent quotes :

Quote[/b] ]Dennis McKinsey:

If God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that's okay, he's God. He can do whatever he wants. Anyone who adheres to this philosophy has had his sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the opposite.

Quote[/b] ]Don Hirschberg:

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

Quote[/b] ]Jane Wagner:

One thing I have no worry about is whether God exists. But it has occurred to me that God has Alzheimer's and has forgotten we exist.

Quote[/b] ]Henny Youngman:

I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays.

Quote[/b] ]Clarence Darrow:

I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means.

[Heatseeker 0]

Quote[/b] ]the alleged misunderstandings can not be any more than deliberate attempts to incite riot and spread death and destruction.

This simple part stands out from... the Shinpost (Shinpost being my personal description of a certain posting style ).

The pope's quotes of the Bizantine emperor were obviously misinterpreted by some islamic comunities/countries but far from all... many islamic countries accepted his later "explanations", surprisingly even the prime minister of the Palestinian territories condemned the violent acts that took place against christian churches. Some countries and comunities also showned willingness for future debate wich can be considered a positive thing.

I believe this whole event is being used and manipulated by some countries obviously and im not surprised to see Iran's "ayatollah" comparing Bento with US president Bush..

Edit:

Topic's turning into a religious vs non religious already .

[Garcia 0]

I believe this whole event is being used and manipulated by some countries obviously and im not surprised to see Iran's "ayatollah" comparing Bento with US president Bush..

Actually, I'd be suprised it it's not being used by western media and such to put mulims in a bad light...but the media coverage of it mainly sucked...all you got to know from most medias was that he said it, and that he "stole" it from that emperor...nothing more about what point he tried to make or anything

[CsonkaPityu 0]

Quote[/b] ]1: non-christian christians - People who claim to be christian, but who really isn't christian...they never pray, they never go to church etc...

2: christians - People who claim to be christian, and who can be considered to be. They pray, they go to church etc, however, they still don't really follow gods words.

3: christian fanatics - People who actually follow most of gods words, though they tend to not follow the most important ones...like "thou shalt not kill"...

1. a non-chrisitan christian is a non-christian. It's actually a simpe mathematic formula non*christian^2 where non = 0.

2. "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" =>  Not following = non, therefore not following christian^2 = 0

3. Same as No. 2

Quote[/b] ]Oh come on...if so, then I guess christianity is so small that you can't call it a religion...

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

edit: These generalizations aren't good, there are 2billion baptized christians out there. Each is different.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Quote[/b] ]1: non-christian christians - People who claim to be christian, but who really isn't christian...they never pray, they never go to church etc...

2: christians - People who claim to be christian, and who can be considered to be. They pray, they go to church etc, however, they still don't really follow gods words.

3: christian fanatics - People who actually follow most of gods words, though they tend to not follow the most important ones...like "thou shalt not kill"...

1. a non-chrisitan christian is a non-christian. It's actually a simpe mathematic formula non*christian^2 where non = 0.

2. "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" => Not following = non, therefore not following christian^2 = 0

3. Same as No. 2

Quote[/b] ]Oh come on...if so, then I guess christianity is so small that you can't call it a religion...

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

I don't see what relevance this has to the discussion?

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]1: non-christian christians - People who claim to be christian, but who really isn't christian...they never pray, they never go to church etc...

2: christians - People who claim to be christian, and who can be considered to be. They pray, they go to church etc, however, they still don't really follow gods words.

3: christian fanatics - People who actually follow most of gods words, though they tend to not follow the most important ones...like "thou shalt not kill"...

1. a non-chrisitan christian is a non-christian. It's actually a simpe mathematic formula non*christian^2 where non = 0.

2. "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" =>  Not following = non, therefore not following christian^2 = 0

3. Same as No. 2

Quote[/b] ]Oh come on...if so, then I guess christianity is so small that you can't call it a religion...

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

1: That's what I said...they're not christian, though they claim to be

2: Unlike your view, these are who make up the majority of christians, and they are considered to be christian by the church and the society.

3: Indeed, they're not christian...

Seeing your apparent definition of christians, I doubt there are anyone who will be christian when they die, unless they die before they pass the age of 3 or something...

[Heatseeker 0]

Actually, I'd be suprised it it's not being used by western media and such to put mulims in a bad light...but the media coverage of it mainly sucked...all you got to know from most medias was that he said it, and that he "stole" it from that emperor...nothing more about what point he tried to make or anything

Its not, some facts were not given the atention they deserved and the Somalia incident might have been given too much. The pope's theft (uh?) was well covered i think.

While the pope could have been more cautious and considerative the proportions of the events that followed were totally out of order and you seem to disregard that. The media didnt put anyone in a bad light, ignorance and fanatism did.

The not so negative reactions are being given more atention latelly i think.

[Garcia 0]

I'm not saying that all western media would do, I'm saying that some may do...there's probably some anti-islam media out there who try to put muslims in a bad light...most others just did it all worse by simply saying the pope mocked muhammed, but that he quoted someone else...

[CsonkaPityu 0]

Quote[/b] ]Seeing your apparent definition of christians, I doubt there are anyone who will be christian when they die,

No you misunderstood. This sin't as simple as "if you fail you are damned, sorry". Noone is strong enough to follow God without ever sinning against Him, noone. But if you say you are sorry and forgive everyone who has ever wronged you then you are forgiven. This means that you follow.

Quote[/b] ] unless they die before they pass the age of 3 or something...

Funny you say that because Jesus told his apostles once that noone will enter heaven until he/she is like a child.

Quote[/b] ]I don't see what relevance this has to the discussion?

O.o You are right! I'll stop now.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]Seeing your apparent definition of christians, I doubt there are anyone who will be christian when they die,

No you misunderstood. This sin't as simple as "if you fail you are damned, sorry". Noone is strong enough to follow God without ever sinning against Him, noone. But if you say you are sorry and forgive everyone who has ever wronged you then you are forgiven. This means that you follow.

And that is still the problem. The christians don't give much of an effort to follow gods word, and then they ask for forgivness and excuse their sins...and then they go back to their sinful lives, breaking so many of gods words...

[sanctuary 19]

Quote[/b] ]And that is still the problem. The christians don't give much of an effort to follow gods word, and then they ask for forgivness and excuse their sins...and then they go back to their sinful lives, breaking so many of gods words...

Just when i thought every human had their own mind, I am impressed on how much you know "the christians" , can you enlighten me about "the muslims" , "the jews" , "the hindus" , "the buddhists" or "the insertanyreligionbeliver" ?

Being able to know how all the followers of a religion are behaving and thinking must be very interesting.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]And that is still the problem. The christians don't give much of an effort to follow gods word, and then they ask for forgivness and excuse their sins...and then they go back to their sinful lives, breaking so many of gods words...

Just when i thought every human had their own mind, I am impressed on how much you know "the christians" , can you enlighten me about "the muslims" , "the jews" , "the hindus" , "the buddhists" or "the insertanyreligionbeliver" ?

Being able to know how all the followers of a religion are behaving and thinking must be very interesting.

Well of course I'm speaking from my own experience...at least where I live most christians are like that. The only ones who seem to be proper christians are old people. Though it might just be this country, since numbers in this country show that 85-95% are christians, while a numbers showing how christian europeans are show that only about 35% here are to be considered christian...and I grew up at a small place where most who lived there were christians, but not even the priest there behaved like one...and many of them condemed others for not beliving in god

[sanctuary 19]

Well of course I'm speaking from my own experience...at least where I live most christians are like that. The only ones who seem to be proper christians are old people.

That's the point.

See the difference between those two statements :

- the christians are like this

- some christians i know are like this

The 2nd statement may be true, but that does not make the 1st statement to be true at all.

Making a general principle from an isolated fact has never done any good, wherever it takes place : in religions, human behaviour, etc..

[denoir 0]

Although as a person who has very little love for any religion, I must take side with the pope on this one. If you read the speech you can see that the cited passage is taken out of context. Basically what the pope discusses is the role of rationality in religion. Does religion per se need to be rational, or is that just something the Christians picked up from the Greeks? In that discussion he quotes a Byzantine emperor who was of the opinion that promoting religion through violence was bad and gave Muhammed as an example.

The pope goes on to argue that the case is however that faith in some religions has precedence over everything, even rationality and that one has to understand that.

I won't go into the absurdity of a 14th century Christian ruler condemning Islam for using violence to spread religion. In that regard both Christians and Muslims are morally corrupt.

However, the quote was out of context - and even if it had not been, the reaction is unjustified. While religions may be equally absurd in theory, their practice is not equal. And although I don't underestimate the corrupt influence that the Christian right has in the US (and some other places in the west, although to a much smaller degree), it is still nothing compared to how corrupt Islam is today. It is being used by agitators within the Islamic community using the uneducated and the stupid to pursue their agendas.

What about the moderates? While it is true that it is a small minority that now riots, the large moderate majority are the enablers for this type of hysteria. They not only do not prevent it by cleaning up the community of extreme elements, but they indirectly endorse it by endorsing a corruptive idea of arbitrary reasoning. When the basis for your ethical system is an ancient text full of contradictions and open to arbitrary interpretation, then you get shit like this. Of course the moderates enable the extremists - they use the same non-falsifiable belief system.

Religion is based on irrational faith without any way of testing a religious theory or rule and to decide if it is false or true. It's all a question of interpretation of a few old, generally inconsistent texts. Sacrificing a lamb each month to Zeus to please the gods, to pray in a church, not to eat pork or to fly a plane into a building to get a reward in heaven... it's all equally irrational and all equally justifiable by the "right" interpretation of a religious text of your choice. The moderates may not riot, but they support a methodology of "faith" which enables people to consider themselves authorized to commit crime in the name of religion.

For the most part in the world the self-evident ideas of secular humanism and secular ethics overrides religious beliefs. Even if it says in the bible that you should stone a person who works on Sunday, very few Christians do that in practice as it would violate a basic human ethical rule. One common fallacy is to think that we have morality because of religion. No, we have it despite religion.

[Balschoiw 0]

The influencial muslim pushers just adopted the western principles of taking things out of content to fuel their own agenda.

Of course the pope did say that things but they were simply taken out of context and used for the radical flamewar.

We know such things from a different perspective however.

I know quite a few guys and ladies here who do exactly the same into the other direction and people like G.W. made a holy crusade by taking things out of context and using them for their cause. It´s no wonder that such approach is used by radical pushers aswell.

What really disturbs me is that the muslim leaders try to set up their own framework in wich the islam is to be debated. They try to limit freedom by threatening those who approach Islam in a critical way. That´s some kind of dictatoric way of "free-thinking". Following that pattern the wannabe islam radicals could even declare the holy war on bikinis.

The problem is that such things do reach people and are used to separate muslims and christians even more than they already are.

Another method adopted from G.W. Alienate your "enemy" to get support for your wrongdoings.

We somehow will have a hard time blaming the islam-radicals for something that we invented.

[theavonlady 2]

We somehow will have a hard time blaming the islam-radicals for something that we invented.  

That's easy!

Quote[/b] ]2.39. But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.

2.190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2.192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

2.216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

2.257. Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

3:118. O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

3.141. Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing Those that resist Faith.

3.151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

3.157. And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.

3.158. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! it is unto Allah that ye are brought together.

3.169. Think not of those who are slain in Allah.s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

4.3. If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

4.14. But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment.

4.15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

4.16. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

4.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

4.74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

4.76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

4.101. For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah.s Way;

4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.

5.14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

5.39. But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

5.57. O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

5.64. The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

5.69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

5.73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

5.82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

7.96. If the people of the towns had but believed and feared Allah, We should indeed have opened out to them (All kinds of) blessings from heaven and earth; but they rejected (the truth), and We brought them to book for their misdeeds.

7.97. Did the people of the towns feel secure against the coming of Our wrath by night while they were asleep?

7.98. Or else did they feel secure against its coming in broad daylight while they played about (care-free)?

8.12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

8.13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

8.14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

8.15. O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

8.16. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

8.17. It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah. when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

8.18. That, and also because Allah is He Who makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the Unbelievers.

8.36. The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;

8.38. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

8.39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

8.41. And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

8.55. For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

8.65. O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

8.67. It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9.6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. And then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

9.23. O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

9.28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean;

9.38. O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.

9.39. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.

9.51. Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector": and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.

9.60. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:

9.61. They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).

9.62. (Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.

9.64. Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,-

9.65. To dwell therein for ever: no protector will they find, nor helper.

9.73. (With the result) that Allah has to punish the Hypocrites, men and women, and the Unbelievers, men and women, and Allah turns in Mercy to the Believers, men and women: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

9.111. Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

9.123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

10.4. To Him will be your return- of all of you. The promise of Allah is true and sure. It is He Who beginneth the process of creation, and repeateth it, that He may reward with justice those who believe and work righteousness; but those who reject Him will have draughts of boiling fluids, and a penalty grievous, because they did reject Him.

25.52. Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).

33.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

33.28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.

33.29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

33.30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

33.119. O ye who believe! Fear Allah and be with those who are true (in word and deed).

33.123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

47.4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

48.29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.

54.39. "So taste ye My Wrath and My Warning."

54.40. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

60.4. ... there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone.

66.9. O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).

72.23. "Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."

98.6. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

[Ares1978 0]

We somehow will have a hard time blaming the islam-radicals for something that we invented.  

Who's "we"? I didn't invent it and neither did you. Fine, if you want to take blame for something somebody else did, be my guest. I'm going to keep blaming them for things that they do.

And by the way, no "we" didn't.

[mattxr 9]

Nearlly everything i read today has got islam invloved in all the violence.. i couldnt care less about there religion or any religion for that matter but i think islam is the course of most of the worlds problems.. think about it.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

You know, stating that a religion isn't violent and nevertheless using the religion itself as pretext for violence, as seen in the response of the muslims, like in Somalia... I mean, it's a bit like shooting yourself in the foot...

As for Islam not being violent, well, I must say I have my doubts... I saw a documentary on Osama Bin Laden on CNN the other day, and it was said that many Al-Qaeda members were disgusted by Osama's 9-11 attack because it was completely by surprise, without a previous warning and invitation for the target "infidels" to be converted to Islam... and as a result, after 9-11, Osama went to an islamic priest to get official islamic religious permission to kill... I don't remember the number correctly but it was a couple of million people... now I don't know any other religion where you can go and get official religious permission to kill an exact number of people... that's just...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Who's "we"?

The so called western world, including EU,Israel, USA and all who soaked up the evil-islam claims we heard from top-row politicians over the last decade(s).

Didn´t Bush link his "crusade" to traditional christian values ? Instrumentalizing god like he does and did is no better than blowing yourself up for allah. Of course he doesn´t blow himself up, but he blows a lot of other people up, in the end, in the name of god.

Quote[/b] ]That's easy!

Yeah Islam is evil, I know Avon.

At least they don´t have Jesus on their scoreboard like the Jews.

You can copy/paste all that you want, but that neither will whitewash your hands for your support of mass murdering of civillians in Lebanon, nor will it change the growing issue with islamic radicalism. It´s people like you who contribute to an escalation of religious matters.

It´s people like you who only fuel the fire and then demand bombings and preemptive strikes.

It´s somewhat outdated to think that islam is violent per definition. It may be your favourite thing but it´s not reality.

I judge people by their actions. Jews kill in the name of religion, christians kill in the name of religion, all do that.

If all you can contribute to a discussion is some translation of verses copy/pasted from the inet, you´d better say nothing at all and stroll away.

We already know your modus operandi.

Quote[/b] ]but i think islam is the course of most of the worlds problems

Doubted. It´s a willing scapegoat but the problems are not caused by islam but by radical islamists. I beg to differ.

[VISTREL 0]

Islam is a religion of many undeveloped countries. The culture in those countries is brutal, and not really oriented toward humanity. That's why we see beheadings, suicide bombings, etc. They'd rather behead someone than shoot.

I bet if western europe was islamic, and arab countries were christian, then we would say christianity is violent religion.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Who's "we"?

The so called western world, including EU,Israel, USA and all who soaked up the evil-islam claims we heard from top-row politicians over the last decade(s).

Who needs politicians? You can learn it from Islam, their scriptures and their practices. Well, some of us can. Obviously others don't have a clue or can't face facts.

Quote[/b] ]Didn´t Bush link his "crusade" to traditional christian values ?

What crusade? And what "traditional Christian values" did he have in mind? The Spanish Inquisition or peace on earth, goodwill to mankind, etc., etc., so on and so forth? (Golly gosh, ain't there any Christians here who can preach their own religion?)

Quote[/b] ]Instrumentalizing god like he does and did is no better than blowing yourself up for allah. Of course he doesn´t blow himself up, but he blows a lot of other people up, in the end, in the name of god.

Sources, please. Ho hum.

Quote[/b] ]That's easy!

Yeah Islam is evil, I know Avon.

No. Those Quranic quotes teach love and compassion and leave the rest of the world alone, yada, yada. It's oh so good for you and me!

Quote[/b] ]At least they don´t have Jesus on their scoreboard like the Jews.

You lost me there.

Ah! You mean the Jews killed Jesus? Fankly, Bals, I don't give a damn but frankly we didn't. Capital cases at the time were fully controled by the ruling Romans and crucifiction was their standard punishment. But you go ahead and continue worshiping Mel Gibson, because frankly Bals, I don't give a damn.

Quote[/b] ]You can copy/paste all that you want, but that neither will whitewash your hands for your support of mass murdering of civillians in Lebanon,

Whine! Whine! Whine!

Don't attack us and you won't be attacked.

Cry for Nasrallah, Bals. Cry.

Quote[/b] ]nor will it change the growing issue with islamic radicalism. It´s people like you who contribute to an escalation of religious matters.

Yes, we should all shut up, put blinkers on our eyes and it will all be over with in a day or 2. Sure.

Quote[/b] ]It´s people like you who only fuel the fire and then demand bombings and preemptive strikes.

LOL! Such revisionism of things that occurred within hours, days and weeks.

Quote[/b] ]It´s somewhat outdated to think that islam is violent per definition.

That's what they say. That's what they do. Guess who's the outdated one here, Bals?

Quote[/b] ]It may be your favourite thing but it´s not reality.

Good luck, Europe!

Quote[/b] ]I judge people by their actions. Jews kill in the name of religion, christians kill in the name of religion, all do that.

Please elaborate. The only religious precpt I know of Jews killing for is self defense. Where do Jews or Christians preach beheadings? Anihilating enemies? Throwing them into the sea? Dispatching them to hell? Enslaving them? Subjugating them?

What millenium are you in Bals?

Quote[/b] ]If all you can contribute to a discussion is some translation of verses copy/pasted from the inet, you´d better say nothing at all and stroll away.

I'll do as I please. Who made you king of thought? Oh, that's right - you know better. The pure source of truth.

I quoted straight from Islamicity.com. It is a popular Islamic site and is the rule, not the exception. Where's the beef, Bals?

But of course, you have the keys to knowledge. The rest of us are locked out. Whatever.

Quote[/b] ]We already know your modus operandi.

That's OK. The world will never understand yours when they look back a few years from now.