iFEEL support & 3D ironsights

[whisper 0]

A screenshot of a 3D ironsight would help me understand the argument

[NeMeSiS 11]

http://www.brothersinarmsgame.com/ss/EiB_XBOX_iron_sight.jpg

IMO Iron sights like those are good, the front part is blurry but it looks (and feels, but you need to play the game for that) alot better

[bravo 6 0]

http://www.brothersinarmsgame.com/ss/EiB_XBOX_iron_sight.jpg

IMO Iron sights like those are good, the front part is blurry but it looks (and feels, but you need to play the game for that) alot better

well its interresting but you can't see much.. I mean, can you get closer to the ironsight and see more in front of you. cause that blocks your sight completly

I really dont like if we have to see allways like that..

[NeMeSiS 11]

http://www.brothersinarmsgame.com/ss/EiB_XBOX_iron_sight.jpg

IMO Iron sights like those are good, the front part is blurry but it looks (and feels, but you need to play the game for that) alot better

well its interresting but you can't see much.. I mean, can you get closer to the ironsight and see more in front of you. cause that blocks your sight completly

I really dont like if we have to see allways like that..  

Its just an example, i dont mean that exact sight  

[bravo 6 0]

oh ok..

[max power 21]

Actually, 3d models (or simulated parallax scrolling with seperate front and rear components) would most benefit red dot and holographic sites since their reticles move around quite a lot compared to the angle of your eye. With a reflex red dot site, at certain angles, and assuming the site is aligned parallel with the lense of your eye, the red dot should always point to where the bullet will go at a preset convergence range (perhaps infinity). So, if you're not looking down the centre of the site, the dot will drift to accomodate the angle.

Gunsight pic

Notice the gunsight is off centre.. this is because the pilot's head (camera) is off centre. The gunsight itself is pointing to where the projectiles would hit at a certain range (I was looking for some world war 2 site pics but could only find this one of a cobra during the vietnam war. This might be different but let's assume they are the same

I agree, that without proper controls (control over your head in relation to the shouldered firearm and where the firearm is pointing), whether the sites are 2d or 3d is pretty moot. Both are essentially just decals put before you like an HUD that is always in focus.

[grayace 2]

http://www.brothersinarmsgame.com/ss/EiB_XBOX_iron_sight.jpg

IMO Iron sights like those are good, the front part is blurry but it looks (and feels, but you need to play the game for that) alot better

Wow! this sight is pretty good! I wasnt expecting such good thing from an arcade style game but its impressive,

well sights are blurry and most of the field of view is screened by the weapon, thats pretty good. but should be graphically improved. it reminds me when I was shooting with G3A4, (on 2nd sight)

G3A4: there is 1st mode of sight which allows larger field of view for close combat. (open W style sight, others are like O )

[NeMeSiS 11]

Both are essentially just decals put before you like an HUD that is always in focus.

Well yeah, but to get closer to real life you can let the front part of the gun sway a bit, and the back part a little (or not at all, or we would probably get seasick )

[whisper 0]

Thks for the screenshot

And yup, looks very nice How do you have to "align front and back" sights, though?

[x al 1]

Ok...I looked into my games again and tried to figure out the look and feel of different ironsight views.

First conclusion:

Any ironsight is better than no ironsight (no ironsight in terms of a crosshair only view)!!!

Battlefield 2: Eyes are close to the ironsight, weapon sways only a little bit while moving. No visible hands. The weapons have almost no recoil, almost no off centering. Ironsights look almost like 2D paralax view, blurry!

Rainbow six lockdown: Eyes are very close to the ironsight, weapons sway very hefty while moving. No visible hands. The weapons have a hefty recoil, off centering. Ironsights look almost like 2D paralax view, very blurry!

CoD 2: Eyes are very far (1/2m away) from the ironsight, weapons sway normal while moving. Visible hands. The weapons have a strong recoil, off centering. Ironsights are clearly 3D in-game weapon models.

Vietcong 2: Eyes are close to the ironsight, weapons sway a bit unrealisticly fast. Visible hands. The weapons have a normal recoil, low off centering. Ironsights are clearly 3D in-game weapon models.

Final conclusion: There is no clear winner. I actually would like the best parts packed together.

Eyes should be close to the ironsight (perhaps 2 step mode, close a la Battlefield 2...very close a la R6 lockdown=100% accurate with a timer for allignment finding and breath holding). Weapons should sway normal to strong while moving, depended on the speed (R6 Lockdown). They should have a strong recoil (CoD2 & R6 lockdown) with realistic off centering.

And they should use the 3D in-game weapons (Vietcong 2), with visible hands (Vietcong 2), with a slitely blurry front (R6 lockdown).

Static 2D ironsights a la Söldner are a no go!

And the ironsights from OFP are a bit outdated, too.

I also agree, that CoD2 has a bad feeling, due to the eye distance to the weapon.

[martinovic 0]

Any iron sight is good as long as that lame breathholding feature is left out.

What would be good and balance snipers and stuff out is when you switch to ironsight view the weapon sways a little and "calms down" after a while, depending on how high the skill setting of the soldier is in the editor and what stance you are in.

[grayace 2]

Any iron sight is good as long as that lame breathholding feature is left out.

What would be good and balance snipers and stuff out is when you switch to ironsight view the weapon sways a little and "calms down" after a while, depending on how high the skill setting of the soldier is in the editor and what stance you are in.

well mate "breath holding" is only good for if you are shooting beyond 250 meters... any average soldier can shoot a head sized target under 250 meters range easily by kneeling or laying prone without holding breath.. well at least I did..

PS: and also I hate sniper rifles swaying like crazy even laying prone.. slight vibration is the best

[Metal Heart 0]

Quote[/b] ]Static 2D ironsights a la Söldner are a no go!

They are not 2D anymore in the latest versions but in general, Söldner is a good example of how to NOT make infantry combat. OFP (and from what I've seen so far, ArmA too) could learn a trick or two from the other areas of Söldner though.

OFP on the other hand has static 2D ironsights and they are better than any 3D sights that I've seen in any game.

[benus 0]

I don't think that there will be 3D ironsights in ArmA.

If you have seen the Igromania Arma Trailer (can be found on OFP.info e.g.) you can see several times the player using the ACOG sight on his rifle and a BINO.

But it is different to what we have in OFP. it seems as if there is a zoom in on the rifle and then the Ironsight fades in.

(and still ... the outer parts of the ironsight are just gray/black, like it was in OFP with sniper sights etc., so there will be no zoom for a scope and no zoom for the outer part... so far, maybe it will change).

but all this doesn't excepts that we won't have 3D sights in the end. because it only shows a rifle with scope and a BINO that is used in the movie. so maybe for rifles without scope and without zoom we will have 3D sights.

but I don't think so.

what I would like to see would be BUMP MAPS:

"A bump map is a gray scale image; any image will do. The lighter areas are rendered as raised portions of the surface and darker areas are rendered as depressions. The bumping is sensitive to the direction of light sources. If the transition between light and dark areas is a gradient, the gradient will render as a slope."

SOURCE LINK with pics.

and or NORMAL MAPS.

It would allow us to make 2D sight that really have depth and react on the lights...

3Dsights would be nice... but with the right texturing work 2D sights can be great too and ArmA will support BUMP MAPS and NORMAL MAPS ... so lets just hope that it is possible to use them for Ironsights ... and if it isn't someone will make it work I hope.

benus

[Delirium 0]

I don't think that there will be 3D ironsights in ArmA.

If you have seen the Igromania Arma Trailer (can be found on OFP.info e.g.) you can see several times the player using the ACOG sight on his rifle and a BINO.

But it is different to what we have in OFP. it seems as if there is a zoom in on the rifle and then the Ironsight fades in.

(and still ... the outer parts of the ironsight are just gray/black, like it was in OFP with sniper sights etc., so there will be no zoom for a scope and no zoom for the outer part... so far, maybe it will change).

but all this doesn't excepts that we won't have 3D sights in the end. because it only shows a rifle with scope and a BINO that is used in the movie. so maybe for rifles without scope and without zoom we will have 3D sights.

but I don't think so.

what I would like to see would be BUMP MAPS:

"A bump map is a gray scale image; any image will do. The lighter areas are rendered as raised portions of the surface and darker areas are rendered as depressions. The bumping is sensitive to the direction of light sources. If the transition between light and dark areas is a gradient, the gradient will render as a slope."

SOURCE LINK with pics.

and or NORMAL MAPS.

It would allow us to make 2D sight that really have depth and react on the lights...

3Dsights would be nice... but with the right texturing work 2D sights can be great too and ArmA will support BUMP MAPS and NORMAL MAPS ... so lets just hope that it is possible to use them for Ironsights ... and if it isn't someone will make it work I hope.

benus

It depends on the game engine used. It can be pre-lighted though. Lighting baked into texture, I mean. The way I do my Irons.

Most of you guys want a blurry the sights though, so there is not much of a point in making it too detailed.

One cool feature would be a DOF when switching to irons. It'd be visible for like a sec (sth like an eye fucusing on the target).

[Delirium 0]

Benus

Asked me to show more or less what I meant.

Here you go with some samples. The have pre-lights, GI, dirtmaps, bump and displacement rendered into the texture. I took me about a day to model and render it to more or less want I wanted. It can be done way better (more detail), with DOF but XSI lacks here (it takes too damn long to render sth decent). It is ok for my personal use, though.

[im]http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4638/eotech0az.jpg[/img]>100kb

[Placebo 29]

Delirium please don't hotlink images greater than 100kb.

[x al 1]

Quote[/b] ]Static 2D ironsights a la Söldner are a no go!

They are not 2D anymore in the latest versions but in general, Söldner is a good example of how to NOT make infantry combat. OFP (and from what I've seen so far, ArmA too) could learn a trick or two from the other areas of Söldner though.

OFP on the other hand has static 2D ironsights and they are better than any 3D sights that I've seen in any game.

Well, I guess most of you haven't tried any of my listed games then.

OFP 2D ironsights were great due for being new at that time, but for todays possibilities too outdated. I listed games which show how it could be done.

Delirium, your pics are great! But when it comes to swaying movements and allignments, a flat 2D image has its limites. Perhaps two paralax moving 2D images could do it, but seems more complicated than to use a 3D weapon model ironsight.

What really astonishes me is, that probably noone has ever seen or played games  like Vietcong2, Battlefield 2 and R6 Lockdown (and Americas Army), due to comments like "what do you mean with ironsights, or comments on how to improve 2D sights". Really funny. There are good examples already out there in other games. They just need to be put together to get the most realistic sights, with excellent look and feel.

Furthermore...assuming that no ironsights were implemented due to having seen only Aimpod views, seems to far fetched. More and more games use ironsights...it is becoming a standard which once was intoduced by BI with OFP. Why the heck should they cut out THEIR feature? ArmA will hopefully be a PC game only, so why switch to lame console standards?

[Dwarden 1125]

Red Orchestra Ostfront 41-45 should be mentioned too

[benus 0]

@ X AL

I have played lots of games that use 3D-sights ... Vietcong series e.g. and yes I like them alot.

but I don't think that 3D sights will be in ArmA and if no one makes working 3D-sights (lets hope someone makes it work or lets hope BIS will implement them), I think about improving 2D ironsights.

benus

[funnyguy1 0]

Well, It`s slowly turning intoanother thread about gunsights...

I would like to see something really innovative...

Imagine, having nice modeled rifle with just an anim of ascending it to eye level (+ the ability to zoom in, out by manipulating the distance between the `virtual` eye and the sight), visible hands and ability to set the up the sights...

[x al 1]

Well, It`s slowly turning intoanother thread about gunsights...

I would like to see something really innovative...

Imagine, having nice modeled rifle with just an anim of ascending it to eye level (+ the ability to zoom in, out by manipulating the distance between the `virtual` eye and the sight), visible hands and ability to set the up the sights...

I agree with you imaginations ...

Come on BI...a lot of nice thoughts here in the thread, if not implemtable in ArmA anymore, well then probably game2?  

And back to the headline:

Did anybody ever use a iFeel forcefeed back mouse? Well I do till today, although there seem to be no companies selling them anymore. OFP (and a few other games) supported iFeel and it was a cool feeling when then guns were fired. THAT improved the look and feel of the game A LOT in my opinion. Do want to miss that feature anymore.

Please BI...implement iFeel into ArmA again.

[shataan 1]

As long as it has the same type of aim features that were in Flashpoint, I`ll be fine with that.

[M9ACE 0]

I am pretty happy with the sights as they are now in OFP.

[kernriver 4]

...it is becoming a standard which once was intoduced by BI with OFP.

The first game with ironsight (that i played) was Hidden and dangerous, i don't know if any game before had them...