ArmA Progress Updates

[dreday 1]

Last time i drove a car around everon i thought about this... i think firing from stationary/parked vehicles (like a ural truck) could be ok. From a moving car... not really. From a flying helicopter... not really. Worth implementing? Not really...

a) You wont hit anything.

b) Firing a rifle from a confined space where other ocupants might be present .

b.1) They would go deaf.

b.2) Brass injury.

b.3) goto a).

I have GTA SA , i dont see what would be so great about having this feature.

All of these are valid points, but none of them seem to matter too much when your vehicle is being riddled with bullets.  I am pretty sure that bass injury would be the least of your concerns if your HMMWV was trying to escape the ambush spot and you had to lay down suppressive fire from your seat...

The point being... firing from moving vehicles is a valid technique that is utilized by well trained units (US Army and USMC) and poorly trained insurgents (Iraqi resistance) alike.

IMHO, the only reason that this feature is not in the game has to do with the developers not having the time and/or budget to implement it.  Fair enough, but let's not pretend that it has anything to do with the concerns about realisms.

Peace,

DreDay

[Commando84 0]

Last time i drove a car around everon i thought about this... i think firing from stationary/parked vehicles (like a ural truck) could be ok. From a moving car... not really. From a flying helicopter... not really. Worth implementing? Not really...

a) You wont hit anything.

b) Firing a rifle from a confined space where other ocupants might be present .

b.1) They would go deaf.

b.2) Brass injury.

b.3) goto a).

I have GTA SA , i dont see what would be so great about having this feature.

All of these are valid points, but none of them seem to matter too much when your vehicle is being riddled with bullets. I am pretty sure that bass injury would be the least of your concerns if your HMMWV was trying to escape the ambush spot and you had to lay down suppressive fire from the your seat...

The point being... firing from moving vehicles is a valid technique that is utilized by well trained units (US Army and USMC) and poorly trained insurgents (Iraqi resistance) alike.

IMHO, the only reason that this feature is not in the game has to do with the developers not having the time and or budget to implement it. Fair enough, but let's not pretend that it has anything to do with the concerns about realisms.

Peace,

DreDay

totally agree with this post. Congrats to the compeition winners.

[kavoven 4]

Last time i drove a car around everon i thought about this... i think firing from stationary/parked vehicles (like a ural truck) could be ok. From a moving car... not really. From a flying helicopter... not really. Worth implementing? Not really...

a) You wont hit anything.

b) Firing a rifle from a confined space where other ocupants might be present .

b.1) They would go deaf.

b.2) Brass injury.

b.3) goto a).

I have GTA SA , i dont see what would be so great about having this feature.

i agree with this points..

I know, that Hollywood isn't to famous for realistic war movies, but let's take Black Hawk Down, which looks to me realistic enough.

Remember those two snipers Shugart and Gordon? (Both earned the medel of honor post mortum) They were sitting in the chopper and I think as long as the chopper holds his position, you can fire from it.

I also think that it would be quiet effectiv to fire from a moving vehicle to cover your position, even if you know that you won't hit anything, just to frighten the enemy.

[bravo 6 0]

true, iam not saying i dont want that feature, i Do want that feature in arma, but we have been told that feature was not ment to be in ARMA. Hope BIs change their minds.

[sniper pilot 36]

Last time i drove a car around everon i thought about this... i think firing from stationary/parked vehicles (like a ural truck) could be ok. From a moving car... not really. From a flying helicopter... not really. Worth implementing? Not really...

a) You wont hit anything.

b) Firing a rifle from a confined space where other ocupants might be present .

b.1) They would go deaf.

b.2) Brass injury.

b.3) goto a).

I have GTA SA , i dont see what would be so great about having this feature.

i agree with this points..

I know, that Hollywood isn't to famous for realistic war movies, but let's take Black Hawk Down, which looks to me realistic enough.

Remember those two snipers Shugart and Gordon? (Both earned the medel of honor post mortum) They were sitting in the chopper and I think as long as the chopper holds his position, you can fire from it.

I also think that it would be quiet effectiv to fire from a moving vehicle to cover your position, even if you know that you won't hit anything, just to frighten the enemy.

And its been a while since i read the book, i think they did that in real life...

[Garcia 0]

I know, that Hollywood isn't to famous for realistic war movies, but let's take Black Hawk Down, which looks to me realistic enough.

Remember those two snipers Shugart and Gordon? (Both earned the medel of honor post mortum) They were sitting in the chopper and I think as long as the chopper holds his position, you can fire from it.

I don't see how bringing BHD into this strengthen the "demand-for-shooting-from-vehicle"-case...

1) The snipers never shot from the chopper, at least not in the movie. They are put down on the ground to give cover for the downed pilot...if they could might as well give that cover from the chopper, why risk their lives by setting them down on the ground? Doesn't really mean shit if it looks like you can fire from the chopper in a war movie that was labeled as shite by most reviewers (at least here).

2) BHD covers the "oh but you want to fire from your vehicle if your getting hosed down by enemy fire"-argument quite well, seeing that the US forces are indeed taking quite much beating while in vehicles. Now, can someone tell me, how many times do you see american soldiers in the movie fire their weapon (weapons attached to the vehicle not counting) while driving? Personally I can't remember seeing a single american soldier fire his weapon from a vehicle.

So if we're going to judge what's realistic or not from this movie, I'd say you could label fireing from moving vehicles as unrealistic.

[ziiip 1]

They are put down on the ground to give cover for the downed pilot...if they could might as well give that cover from the chopper, why risk their lives by setting them down on the ground?

Well of course the army didn't want to risk another Black Hawk, that's the reason why they put 'em down on the ground.

[Callsign 128]

ive read the book and they did fire weapons from their vehicles, and i think (pretty certain), that the snipers, shughart and gordon did fire from the blackhawks (dont quote me on that though) a few times. although the "sniping" done from the blackhawks was done by the minigunners/crew chiefs, to provide cover for ground forces.

to be honest firing from boats is done by the military, u can see numerous photos of royal marines etc in RIBs or zodiacs, all lying down both to be stealthy and to present a smaller target, and they would fire from them if need be.

of course, it depends on the vehicle whether a passenger should be able to fire out of it or not, take the little birds for example, SF do fire from it if need be, but a chinook wont have everyone onboard popping their heads out in drive by styley busting caps in everyones ass, especially since 30 passengers wouldnt be able to fit out of the limited doorway access. i think for the most part people just dont like how static the AI and the player are when getting shot at in the back of vehicles that are so open like the 5t trucks, so maybe instead of a firing anim it should be a ducking anim? :P

To be honest if BIS have time to enable it in certain situations then go for it, you wont lose much realism by people firing at an enemy in a combat situation, since thats wat happens anyway; if BIS dont have time to spend on it im sure MODs will change it to their taste whenever, however.

bootneckofficer

[dreday 1]

To be honest  if BIS have time to enable it in certain situations then go for it, you wont lose much realism by people firing at an enemy in a combat situation, since thats wat happens anyway; if BIS dont have time to spend on it im sure MODs will change it to their taste whenever, however.

bootneckofficer

I agree with your other points, but this particular feature can not be modded; that’s why we have not seen it in any OFP mod. We are pretty much at BIS's mercy here, and it does not look like there is time for it...

Peace,

DreDay

[stakex 0]

I don't see how bringing BHD into this strengthen the "demand-for-shooting-from-vehicle"-case...

2) BHD covers the "oh but you want to fire from your vehicle if your getting hosed down by enemy fire"-argument quite well, seeing that the US forces are indeed taking quite much beating while in vehicles. Now, can someone tell me, how many times do you see american soldiers in the movie fire their weapon (weapons attached to the vehicle not counting) while driving? Personally I can't remember seeing a single american soldier fire his weapon from a vehicle.

So if we're going to judge what's realistic or not from this movie, I'd say you could label fireing from moving vehicles as unrealistic.

Watch the movie again... there are several scenes where US soldiers (and rebels) can be seen shooting from moving vehicles. Either way thats just a movie... As for the realistic aspect... DreDay said it best.

Personally I feel this feature was left out not becuase of time to impliment it, but becuase its probly going to be a feature of Game 2. ArmA can't have too many features that Game2 will, otheriwse Game2 will be less appealing.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Personally I feel this feature was left out not becuase of time to impliment it, but becuase its probly going to be a feature of Game 2. ArmA can't have too many features that Game2 will, otheriwse Game2 will be less appealing.

Game 2 has a whole nother 2 years over ArmA, I don't think there's any need to worry about new features in Game 2. We were told it might look nothing at all like ArmA/OFP in 2 years.

[Stendac 0]

I don't really agree with the argument that the ability to fire from vehicles (like boats) doesn't really matter because its difficult to hit a target while moving and bumping around. Of course it's not easy to do. But the point is that someone will think hard about exposing themself to a vehicle if they know that those bullets headed in their direction could potentially kill them. And if you have lots of rifles sticking out of that vehicle the odds of one of your guys nailing someone is pretty good.

And if they're marines it's a guarantee.

[Garcia 0]

They are put down on the ground to give cover for the downed pilot...if they could might as well give that cover from the chopper, why risk their lives by setting them down on the ground?

Well of course the army didn't want to risk another Black Hawk, that's the reason why they put 'em down on the ground.

Yeah I figured, I just didn't bother to add it

Quote[/b] ]Watch the movie again... there are several scenes where US soldiers (and rebels) can be seen shooting from moving vehicles. Either way thats just a movie... As for the realistic aspect... DreDay said it best.

It is quite some time since I saw the movie, yes, but I think I'd rather not watch it again in the near future...and as for rebels...this was pretty much about US forces doing it...rebels will shoot with anything, at anything from anywhere

[Heatseeker 0]

If im sitting in the back of a helicopter (like a blackhawk) i want the option to grab and throw the guy who decided it was fun to shoot from the sitting cargo position out the door.

The miniguns are there for a reason...

I agree with the rubber boat though .

[CsonkaPityu 0]

Firing from vehicles is unrealistic, totally. The argument about the boat being under fire from the coast line is dumb because the US military probably would not send it's landing troops in without some cover, OFP(so prolly arma too) is about combined arms. Plus i doubt it's too easy to implement into the old OFP engine (cause arma is still the same old OFP).

It's not needed to suggest it for Game 2 either, cause it's already known that you can walk around in vehicles in G2, from this it's not a big stretch to assume that you can probably fire your weapon while walking around.

It would be a nice feature only for untrained militias who don't know any better and like wasting ammo, would give them a chaotic, undisciplined feel, but i don't think that's worth the effort of coding the feature into the old engine ArmA uses.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Firing from vehicles is unrealistic, totally. The argument about the boat being under fire from the coast line is dumb because the US military probably would not send it's landing troops in without some cover, OFP(so prolly arma too) is about combined arms. Plus i doubt it's too easy to implement into the old OFP engine (cause arma is still the same old OFP).

It's not needed to suggest it for Game 2 either, cause it's already known that you can walk around in vehicles in G2, from this it's not a big stretch to assume that you can probably fire your weapon while walking around.

It would be a nice feature only for untrained militias who don't know any better and like wasting ammo, would give them a chaotic, undisciplined feel, but i don't think that's worth the effort of coding the feature into the old engine ArmA uses.

agreed, also i dont want arma to turn into Joint Operations. This sort of feature will only resort to CS stye MP gameplay, and i want this to remain a tactical orientated game. by this i mean when your in a chopper you have trust in your pilot, and your on your way to do a job. if you could shoot out it would be more about every man for himself, with choppers flying aimlessly about carrying people to shoot into the void in hope of scratching some north sahrini soldiers.

[Balschoiw 0]

For sure you can fire from vehicles with infantry weapons, but the point is that you don´t fire with your gun from the back of a truck crowded with other soldiers if you don´t really have to.

Depending on very much factors it can only be directed fire, or surpressive fire followed by covering fire when disembarking from the vehicle. Of course it would be nice to have it in but it would take a real load of time and work to implement such for all vehicles. Another problem I see is that the problems arising from free movement on regular vehicles are there. I can imagine people being pushed from trucks by accident, intentionally, whatever, people warping of vehicles because they have lag,etc, etc.

It´s hard to implement in a way it makes sense and is useable and works flawlessly even online.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

and with Lagg online you would get random people falling out now and then etc..

[dreday 1]

Firing from vehicles is unrealistic, totally. The argument about the boat being under fire from the coast line is dumb because the US military probably would not send it's landing troops in without some cover, OFP(so prolly arma too) is about combined arms. Plus i doubt it's too easy to implement into the old OFP engine (cause arma is still the same old OFP).

It's not needed to suggest it for Game 2 either, cause it's already known that you can walk around in vehicles in G2, from this it's not a big stretch to assume that you can probably fire your weapon while walking around.

It would be a nice feature only for untrained militias who don't know any better and like wasting ammo, would give them a chaotic, undisciplined feel, but i don't think that's worth the effort of coding the feature into the old engine ArmA uses.

Your statements are not collaborated by reality. There are dozens of accounts of well trained forces firing from inside their vehicles. One of the best ones by far is in this book (BTW, it is a must read for any one who is interested in the "trench-line truth" about modern combat):

Generation Kill

It is a well documented account about the actions of a US Marine Recon battalion as a spearhead for US invasion of Iraq. I don't want to give too much away, but the Marines spend half their time in Iraq blitzing through sporadic resistance in towns and small villages while firing from inside their vehicles (with deadly results). One description involves a young Marine hitting two running Iraqis (unfortunately they turned out to be civilians) with his M249 from more than 200 meters away while bouncing down a rough road in a Humvee that is moving at 40 miles per hour.

Shooting from the moving vehicles is difficult, but certainly doable (especially when you consider the alternative); and the elite forces rely on it just as much as anyone else.

Peace,

DreDay

[dreday 1]

For sure you can fire from vehicles with infantry weapons, but the point is that you don´t fire with your gun from the back of a truck crowded with other soldiers if you don´t really have to.

The "point" is that you do have to fire from trucks and Humvees a lot of the time...

I agree with you that it is hard to implement, and it is understandable that BIS does not have time for it now. However, it would be a very welcomed feature in the Game 2.

I have only tried out a demo for BF2, but from what I remember, they had a simple and workable solution for this...

Peace,

DreDay

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Shooting from the moving vehicles is difficult, but certainly doable

It is already very hard to get good shots with mounted mg´s while speeding on bad roads, believe me. A spray and pray approach does only cause civillian victims and that´s a thing you don´t really want to have when already half-trapped in an ambush.

I guess hardly none of that special forces teams really tunred back to see who their civillian/opponent kill ratio was, don´t you think ?

[bravo 6 0]

how much longer do we have to wait for a simple demo?

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

im not fully convinced therer will be one, and im not overly bothered if theres not. only 2 months to wait.

[dreday 1]

It is already very hard to get good shots with mounted mg´s while speeding on bad roads, believe me. A spray and pray approach does only cause civillian victims and that´s a thing you don´t really want to have when already half-trapped in an ambush.

I guess hardly none of that special forces teams really tunred back to see who their civillian/opponent kill ratio was, don´t you think ?

Well, actually they did. Again, I don't want to give away all the events that are described in the book, but those Marines did kill a lot of civilians, and they did take it very close to their hearts. However the main reasons for those civilian deaths were poor Rules Of Engagement that were set by their commanders, not the Marine marksmanship (which was actually very good).

Now in terms of ArmA, we will have very few civilians; and even if we do have a crowd of civies, it would ultimately be your choice of weather to fire or not. I still stand by my statement that this is a much needed option that would only add to the game play, while making it even more realistic.

Peace,

DreDay

[Guest Ti0n3r]

and with Lagg online you would get random people falling out now and then etc..

That has nothing to do with being able to fire from the cargo pos of a truck/whatever. You're thinking about being able to walk freely on moving vehicle?