What can we do with JIP?

[KeyCat 131]

I'm thrilled by recent days news about Armoured Assault and literally blown away by the OFP 2 screenshoots - way to go BIS!

Lots of details are still unknown but one thing we know is that JIP will be one of the long awaited features and that alone will hopefully breath new life in the somewhat stalled MP community since it's been the missing key to persistent on-line missions/wars.

AA is still a few months away but I'm eager to hear if you other guys/gals have any input on how a "realistic" and persistent on-line war could look like and still keep the fun part of it. I'm not much of an CTI fan myself, don't like the money thing and looking for something different. Lots of questions and below is some that popped up in my mind...

- How to make various roles (commander, pilots, medics etc.) attractive to players?

- How can a type of chain-of-command be implemented?

- How to handle re-spawn?

- How to handle re-supplies?

- How to handle AI support (if any)?

- What mil equpiment should be allowed and how to balance sides?

- What objectives to win the war?

- How many players can a "reasonable" dedicated server handle at the moment and still be stable?

Any takers?

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[Major Fubar 0]

This can go in the AA section...

[Heatseeker 0]

I think JIP will only be available with certain game types, C&H, DM, TDM, CTF maybe? We dont know how far it was implemented into the game and there is a big chance that players who join mid game will break the scripting of a custom, heavily scripted mission? So basicaly players will join during mid game,select the available role and read the briefing, respawn at the spawn location and join the war, sounds good to me .

[Commando84 0]

Capture the island i would like to see join in progress and also coop , but all that should be decided by mission maker or server admin

[UNN 0]

For most of the current game types, JIP should not be a problem.  CTI is slightly more contentious, as there is an element of secrecy involved.

Most of the answers to the questions you asked can be found in the many mission types available to OFP. KICTI for example, gives you a basic idea of what’s involved, implementing a CoC style system in Multi Player.

The rest will be down to AA new network code and the reliability of servers.

But why spend time thinking about old mission formats? Create something new to OFP.

What about never ending missions, ok so perhaps not, never ending. But battles that can run for days if not weeks, where players join to participate in the battle at squad level on any given mission.

Or with larger Islands, CTI style on a grand scale. Where you scavenge\build resources over weeks, perhaps modelling dispirit bands of rebel forces, who's initial goal is to repel an AI occupying force, but ultimately each faction fights to control the entire island themselves.

Hmm..ok so I'm probably getting carried away Thinking about it, if AA is basically OFP with better graphics and network code, then perhaps we can’t do anything that different for the current stock of missions.

For example still having only three sides, that will consider each other as enemy, is a pain.

[Denwad 0]

lol RTS3 might have some bigger games , longer ones too.

[Heatseeker 0]

If the future of ARAS MP is cti and rts stuff i will problably stick with sp and coop anyway...

[llauma 0]

The only good thing about JIP is that hopefully it will support 'join as spectator' instead of having to wait in the player pool. As I play co-op's only I dont see any point in having people joining after the mission has started.

[StealthTiger 0]

The only way I personally would want JIP to work is that any new player can only fill a slot that was originally allocated to a player who has left the game. Or that the admin can allocate slots manually in-game. This keeps the sides even and fair in games like C&H/CTF.. Coop is mentioned above.

Otherwise you get 10's of people swarming in after the game has started and jumping into the side with the most players on, making the game less about skill and more about weight of numbers.

I really hope ARAS doesn't have ticket type crap like the BF series as I personally think that this is the only real use for JIP. - Side note: If a 'jump' command appears I'm going to throw my monitor out of the window!

JIP as a spectator sounds like an extremely good idea however.

[void_false 1]

I want to see CTI that lasts forever. Imagine playing it a week or so on 3in1 island (dont remember the name).

Imagine, you play for few hours, quit. Rejoin next day and read the log: East captured malden so West was forced to leave to Everon. OMG... Thats gonna be just brilliant.

[bn880 5]

Well, for the biggest change we are probably going to build one of those semi-continuous battles with limited equipment reinforcements like heli drops and LST landings. There will be some main objective which will be insanely difficult to achieve due to various aspects. The scripting will have to be finessed a little to prevent any serious overloads (ammo bugs either), and to cooperate with JIP players, but it should be fairly easy with a skilled community.

Yet the main feature I am looking for is to allow late comers and people who disconnected to join back up into a nice Team PvP Coop or straight Coop mission. < And hey you have no idea what this means to me personally, as I have these missions which last 6h already.... JIP! JIP!

[Yssabem 0]

I think many people's idea of ultimate OFP is this persistant war many have mentioned.

To reward people for playing as Medics and other support roles (ammo truck drivers, engineers for repairs etc) in a persistant CTI environment I have a suggestion and hear me out til the end before you attack it

A point system determines how much 'play time' individual players get. Each unique player ID is given a starting amount of 'points' that equate to playing time (for example new players start with 120 points = two hours of play time). You then earn more play time on that server by playing certain roles. Medics/Repairmen etc earn points for healing and repairing things. When you've topped up your playing time points you can abandon that role (if you like) and go back to straight soldiering. This would encourge/force everyone to pitch in regularly with the support roles meaning that there would always be some people on the server doing the things that needed to be done.

Just and idea.

[RN Malboeuf 12]

The only way I personally would want JIP to work is that any new player can only fill a slot that was originally allocated to a player who has left the game. Or that the admin can allocate slots manually in-game. This keeps the sides even and fair in games like C&H/CTF.. Coop is mentioned above.

yes indeed, only players that were in that slot so they can rejoin league games, or if they are doing JIP make it have settings so we can disable JIP, or set it to starting players only

[KeyCat 131]

But why spend time thinking about old mission formats? Create something new to OFP.

What about never ending missions, ok so perhaps not, never ending. But battles that can run for days if not weeks, where players join to participate in the battle at squad level on any given mission.

Maybe I was unclear but thats exactly what I was thinking about! A realistic and persistent on-line war that could last 24-48 hours (or longer) but still be fun for all the various roles to play.

With some brainstorming and maybe even some colaboration we may come up with something new and different than CTI/RTS.

I know lots of people enjoy CTI/RTS and I'm not bashing thoose gamestyles it's just not my cup of tea. Currently I prefer co-op missions but with JIP I envision that it's possible to take it a step further and have a large RED vs BLUE persistent on-line war where combined arms plays a big role!

Quote[/b] ]

Well, for the biggest change we are probably going to build one of those semi-continuous battles with limited equipment reinforcements like heli drops and LST landings.

@ bn880: Your large co-op missions was the the first that crossed my mind when started to think about it ;)

For me a "realistic" - but still fun - persistent RED vs BLUE war running over lets say a weekend that promoted and rewarded good teamwork and required combined arms efforts to advance/win would kick a** and I think it will be possible with JIP.

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[bn880 5]

I think many people's idea of ultimate OFP is this persistant war many have mentioned.

To reward people for playing as Medics and other support roles (ammo truck drivers, engineers for repairs etc) in a persistant CTI environment I have a suggestion and hear me out til the end before you attack it

A point system determines how much 'play time' individual players get. Each unique player ID is given a starting amount of 'points' that equate to playing time (for example new players start with 120 points = two hours of play time). You then earn more play time on that server by playing certain roles. Medics/Repairmen etc earn points for healing and repairing things. When you've topped up your playing time points you can abandon that role (if you like) and go back to straight soldiering. This would encourge/force everyone to pitch in regularly with the support roles meaning that there would always be some people on the server doing the things that needed to be done.

Just and idea.

Yes but just remember, persistant war is not always CTI as in the current CTI systems.

I am sure CTI's will be part of it but not all of it.

[Yssabem 0]

Yes but just remember, persistant war is not always CTI as in the current CTI systems.

I am sure CTI's will be part of it but not all of it.

Oh yes i certainly hope CTI isn't the be-all and end-all of it I was just using the closest thing we have to a persistant 'War' that we have now ;)

[-IT-Q- 0]

well i'd like to give some input too.

i think one way to go is to simulate a continueous war - let me explain some more:

there were several german projects ("leagues) with doing this already - just with the 'small' difference that the battle had to be split up in several separat matches.

it included headquaters, movable bases, planning map, sectors (to decide who has control), ressources (money), buying new hardware, all things were finite (and couted are each match), storyline, newsmaper to the league, matches lasting two hours each, where each player had 1 life only, 12 vs 12 and so on.

it lacked of making lots of things live instead of via the planning system - like to some extent relocation of bases and material, simulated supply-system, several gameplay elements (to some extent) like making surveilance and reconnaissance more important.

well 24/7 battle might be not perfect for this rather complex, but you could disallowing actively in certain times (just getting in as observer) and the rest is live playable.

handing over several task to ai, especially in those closing times.

i hope you got somewhat the idea of the concept. the only thing i can say is very very good addition to ofp gameplay styles !

it just shows how great this game is and how huge the possibilites are  

other very important possibilites are for sure:

~ rejoining having lost connection

~ exchanging people live

~ good for ctf and c&h public maps

i think a very important point is the type of audiance:

with experienced players JIP should be no problem at all, no matter what gamestyle

with less experienced / unexperienced in depends a lot how mappers implement it / admins can take advantage of it

i strongly hope that BIS is gonna implement things already mentioned (eventhandler, enabling via variable, joining as spectator and controblable by admin)

one addition:

havent played it a lot but the concept is very interesting and might be useable also for ArA

wwiionline (live continueous combat with mission/player assignement for the waradministration from both sides - somewhat "quest" based like in rpgs)

[Heatseeker 0]

@ May 23 2005' date='19:43)']...it included headquaters, movable bases, planning map, sectors (to decide who has control), ressources (money), buying new hardware, all things were finite (and couted are each match), storyline, newsmaper to the league, matches lasting two hours each, where each player had 1 life only, 12 vs 12 and so on...

And this is a good thing , has oposed to team play, navigation and true combat simulation with realistic objectives and tactics? It breaks the game concept into something very diferent and kills the imersion factor of being in a somewhat "real" combat environment, i believe this is what makes people turn for coop so much...

[Necromancer- 0]

A "persistent" battlefield...

My personal "wet" dream of OFP.

The only problem is...

Not always there is an admin available..

The type of audiance that play are really a great factor to keep an "endless" persistant battlefield alive.

In BF1942, rarely there are players that help other players..

The majority all just go "gung ho" when they jump in an airplane, flying around trying to kill other planes or targets that are way behind the front line or are completely irrelevant to kill.

The idea of giving a player an amount of playing time when doing his designated job would be great.

[sputnik monroe 102]

I just want a system like Enemy Engaged and Falcon 4.0. No need for money (it's not realistic).

[killswitch 19]

In BF1942, rarely there are players that help other players..

The majority all just go "gung ho" when they jump in an airplane, flying around trying to kill other planes or targets that are way behind the front line or are completely irrelevant to kill.

These are the ones I will assign to the scout or "SF" sections

"Want a M82 Barret? Sure, take two while you're at it". "Want to be a l337 D3lta Operator? You too? Why, you both can!"

They can then board the next C130 or whatever that will do a nice HALO drop of them behind enemy lines, sporting their NVG:s that glow green in the dark ('cause it does that in the X-box game daddy got for me') and all that.

I'll then have my S1 note them in the logs under "Cannon fodder..."

[twisted 128]

wow. sounds good.

but as a newb i'd like JIP to also be easy to understand.

as the topic starter stated its gonna breathe new life into the community. and its gonna do this by being accesible for mooks like me.

nothing worse than waiting 15 minutes for a game to end.

here's a relative newbs view on JIP >

1) co-op. JIP is map makers choice implemeneted like respawn. so JIP only from specific place and only to fill available slots per mission (even if slots are inactive AI). maybe have JIP objective based so have to wait till objective is accomplished (but can spectate while waiting). JIP should reflect the 'realism' of OFP/ARAS and acts as reinforcements. A Bad thing about JIP here is one mission can go on forever cause guys keep joining in drips and drabs.

2) DM/ CTF. Auto balance teams. JIP possible but cant choose teams unless the ADMIN allows it. this allows clan games to go on while keeping sides fair in public. map based team limits cannot be surpassed.

3) CTI. havent played this much so....

4) persistent WAR> damn this sounds soo good. its like a whole new game in itself. here JIP should be based on team lists. JIP could act as reinforcements and so have to be transported in from special reinforcement bases.

[LtUlrich 0]

A point system determines how much 'play time' individual players get. Each unique player ID is given a starting amount of 'points' that equate to playing time (for example new players start with 120 points =  two hours of play time). You then earn more play time on that server by playing certain roles. Medics/Repairmen etc earn points for healing and repairing things. When you've topped up your playing time points you can abandon that role (if you like) and go back to straight soldiering. This would encourge/force everyone to pitch in regularly with the support roles meaning that there would always be some people on the server doing the things that needed to be done.

Like many I'm sure, I've dreamed of a huge persistent OFP war.  I've thought of an idea similar to Yssabem's, and it also answers the question 'Will a persistent battle in OFP be more like CTI/RTS, or will it be a cooperative, on-the-ground effort, a situation that OFP was specifically designed for?'

The answer is rank.  If you really, really want to command multiple squads and set up bases and all that stuff (I'll admit I haven't played CTI so I don't really know), then you should work up in rank and become a general.

I can certainly imagine a perpetual battle where if Joe joins and he is a Sergeant, then he will have the squad leader slots open to him, whereas if Sally joins and she's only a private, then she is limited to rifleman (er, woman) slots.

I like the idea to force people to play support, but I think this can be avoided by having it so that the squad leader chooses the positions of his men, much like the server admin does.

I also think there should be classes of players, such as helicopter pilots, fixed wing pilots, special ops, GIs, tank crews, etc.  Personally I would choose to work up in rank as a helicopter pilot so that I could lead a squad of helis and maybe eventually lead the entire air brigade/division in a CTI-like manner.

The player role/rank information should be stored on the server, much like this website stores your account information, and could be synchronized with other servers to create federations of servers that participate in one war or another.  This would allow several servers to cooperate in the same war, representing different theatres of operation, while still allowing independent servers to have seperate rosters/rank systems, or none at all.

Players would have the ability to delete their accounts and start anew as a PFC, just as they can on this board, or in OFP.

The reason that class/rank info should be stored on the servers should be obvious:  To prevent cheating.

I realize that some of you may think that I'm describing America's Army, but I'm really just describing an optional system that mission makers can use in conjunction with JIP(just like respawn) when they create these huge perpetual battles that we all seem to dream of.  The system would by no means be community-wide, or required, but consider the implications of a system like this for clan warfare/leagues/ladders.  Okay, I'll stop for now but I will probably attempt to clarify my idea in the future.

[4 IN 1 0]

well as for coop i think i got a solution, most of the time i played in missions without respawn and wait till all died or yelling restart, makint it kind of hard for others ppl to join the game, so this idea come to my mind:

how about making a one or two JIP points?

first putting ppl wait in the lobby in coop missions till you reach a point(complete an objective, reach somewhere on the map, etc), then let those men in lobby Join in the game as a part of reinforcement?

well you still dead once only if you keep on the server, and you still need to wait for a while for the next JIP point if you reconnect, and there wont be many chance for JIP in that mission, wouldnt be a big problem for realistic gameplay, and it makes more sence then a fast respawn

[flaber 0]

In coop maps, I think I will make all new players start in the Allied Base.

e.g. : You wake up go outside the barracks, talk with your commander who will say something like .. .your heli/plane/car transport is ready to take you near the frontline with your partners.

Is like having a taxi (better than teletransporting ). The taxi doesn't have to transport you to the exact point where your group is placed, can left you in a secure zone where meeting with your group

I said this, because As a regular coop player, we always deactive AI , so any new member who enter in the game, will not replace one of the group AI (no AI to be taken).