The Middle East part 2

[Stealth3 0]

I think Nemesis should answer that as he is clearly an Hezbolah/IDF tactics expert. Trust me, he knows. Counter strike tought him tactics.

[Nemesis6 0]

Actually, the only tactics I have in Counter-Strike Source is just mostly to follow the guy who has the bomb. If I myself have it, I'll try to get to one of the bomb places. I pretty much random which one I choose. However, I do have one tactic in Counter Strike Source - Supressing fire. I think some folks would say it's a waste of time, but I say it gives our team just a little longer to do whatever it has planned, you know? Especially if I'm covering someone or something, like the bomb or the one who's placing it. Besides, chances are high that by the end of the round, I'll still have extra ammo left, so might as well use it, right?

That's pretty much my tactics in Counter Strike Source. If you meant the old Counter Strike, I was never really good at that. Tried it a few times but I always got owned.

So why were talking about Counter Strike? Oh yeah, you said I got my tactics from it. How does that make sense? I'm not a tactician... But about the question - HizbAllah uses civilian buildings, etc, to stage all kinds of attacks they have up their Sharianic robes/sleeves/whatever.

Wait, when reading the last page again, it seems that I'm repeating myself. Oh well, you asked for it, and you also got to know what tactics I use in Counter Strike. Counter Strike Source at least, but actually I play a lot more Day of Defeat Source.

[Ares1978 0]

Thankfully, most of us here are intelligent enough not to hold such views.

What does intelligence have to do with holding a certain view? That's like saying that anybody who doesn't agree with your view is unintelligent. Most of us here are either intelligent enough not to say exactly what they think, or not intelligent enough to realize what they actually think.

Quote[/b] ]

Really?

Which of us feels that Israeli civilians deserve to be killed?

That's pretty much what I'm asking all of you to tell me. I'm not a mind reader, but you can often read it between the lines.

Quote[/b] ]And who else, besides yourself, feels that "poor helpless Lebanese" deserve to be killed?

Who said I think they deserve to be killed?

[Bernadotte 0]

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Doesn't anybody here have the balls to say straight out that they think that Lebanese civilians are more valuable than Israeli?</span>

Thankfully, most of us here are intelligent enough not to hold such views.

What does intelligence have to do with holding a certain view? That's like saying that anybody who doesn't agree with your view is unintelligent.

Oh really?  Please look again.  I associated intelligence with not holding the view you described above.

Most of us here are either intelligent enough not to say exactly what they think, or not intelligent enough to realize what they actually think.

And which category do you find yourself in?  I'm in neither.

I know people will start whining and make up excuses why the evil Israeli civilians deserve to be killed...

Really?  Which of us feels that Israeli civilians deserve to be killed?

That's pretty much what I'm asking all of you to tell me.

No, that's what you are telling us, not asking us.  So, please go ahead and at least have the balls to identify the people you were referring to above.

I know people will start whining and make up excuses why the evil Israeli civilians deserve to be killed (blah blah blah stolen land blah blah zionazis blah blah chosen people) and the poor helpless Lebanese don't.

And who else, besides yourself, feels that "poor helpless Lebanese" deserve to be killed?

Who said I think they deserve to be killed?

Obviously, you did, unless you were mockingly referring to yourself as one of the people who will start whining and make up excuses why the poor helpless Lebanese don't deserve to be killed.

[Ares1978 0]

Oh really?  Please look again.  I associated intelligence with not holding the view you described above.

Yeah really. Since you try to avoid it, let me rephrase that question; What does intelligence have to do with holding or not holding a certain view?

Quote[/b] ]I'm in neither.

That's debatable. But if you belonged to the former, you obviously wouldn't admit it and if you belonged to the latter, you couldn't admit it.

Quote[/b] ]No, that's what you are telling us, not asking us.  So, please go ahead and at least have the balls to identify the people you were referring to above.

No, that really is what I'm asking you and judging by your response, I hit the nail on the head with that question. Had somebody answered, I could now use the more specific "certain people", at which point it would be quite reasonable to request that I tell you who these certain people are. But tell me what prompted you to choose the anti-Israel stance? I promise I won't call you unintelligent or anything. As a follow-up question, does Israel have the right to eliminate threats to Israeli citizens? Yes or no?

Quote[/b] ]Obviously, you did, unless you were mockingly referring to yourself as one of the people who will start whining and make up excuses why the poor helpless Lebanese don't deserve to be killed.

Obviously I didn't and obviously you just didn't want to get the sentence you are referring to.

ps. Let the fuckers fight it out and may the best man win.

[booradley60 0]

ps. Let the fuckers fight it out and may the best man win.

Heh, you sound like an evangelical Christian!  Just can't wait for that Apocalypse, eh?

I'm still too idealistic to give up on peace and coexistance, although it looks like it will never be possible.  It's almost as if they'll HAVE to see the horror of all-out war to appreciate peace over pride.

[Daniel 0]

Quote[/b] ]ps. Let the fuckers fight it out and may the best man win.

Yeah, it'd be a good solution if there didn't happen to be civilians and a one sided advantage.  

[karantan 0]

ps. Let the fuckers fight it out and may the best man win.

My first (and the last) participation in this have-no-word-for-it topic: such thinking is very common for a people which hasen't tasted a war (yet), or for a total lunatics.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Actually, the only tactics I have in Counter-Strike Source is just ounter Strike Source at least, but actually I play a lot more Day of Defeat Source.

Since we are at it. I have the reputation of being the suicide bomber. I always take the path noone else takes and I just cant settle ... I always gotta run. Even though I basically always die in each match my scores are usually pretty good.

Back to you, Tracy!

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

When was war ever a permanent solution to any problem?

For Israel to eliminate the threat down there, they need to boost the economic market and improve the life of civilians in the area. This would allow the civilians in Palestine and Syrien to stop supporting this bloodspilling, and give them hope for a better life and future. When there is hope, support to certain groups such as Hizbollah would stop, and Israel would not have these threats anymore.

It is, however, just not only up to Israel to solve this problem. It is the entire world, especially here in Europe. We have very stupid and shortsighted foreign refugees laws. Whenever a conflict occurs, and refugees come to fx. Denmark (I take DK as an example, since these are the laws I know best). They get a place to live, but they aren't all too integrated into the community, and many of them becomes criminals. Those who isn't criminals gets payed an education and start working and getting a new life here in Denmark. Those who become criminals are often ejected from Denmark, and sent back to their old country.

See the problem? We take in refugees because there is trouble in a certain area. The refugees that behave nicely and are integrated get paid an education and starts working here in Denmark with a solid foundation in their life.

Those who are criminals, gets ejected after sitting in prison and gets sent home to start rebuilding the are that have just been safe again after war and poverty.

What we SHOULD do, is to send back the persons that got the education, and are stable enough to build up the country again. Or else we will just see a new conflict the same place within few years. Then we should keep the criminals here in the western world, where the system and society is stable enough to take care of them and try and change their ways.

Yea, it can be hard to "eject" people who have really worked up a life in a new country, but they can surely understand that it is the best thing to do.

[sanctuary 19]

Let's see,

Hizbollah is targeting civilians and to kill them, they fire rockets at civilian zone

Israel is targeting Hizbollah and to kill them, they fire missiles at civilian zone

Result is that , unfortunately like in all those damned wars, the people that do not want war , the civilians, are always the people that are the most killed.

So technically, all that is needed for innocent civilians to stop being killed and so bringing peace in the whole zone is that both Hizbollah and Israel stop firing their weapon at civilian zones ?

Too bad war nuts, paranoids, fanatics, and racists from both sides do not like such simple solution and prefer to continue to kill innocent people to achieve whatever "kill them all" goal they have.

But in a more realistic view of the situation, peace can't be achieved with only one side ending its own crazyness, it always takes 2 to dance a tango, so all those UN debates are useless there if they continue to make their own debates without the 2 opposite side participating in them.

so what can end this crazyness ? when one side of the frontier will have 0 people left living inside ?

If war/terrorism/carnages solved problem, it would have been thousand of year of complete peace.

But it has been thousand of years of never ending successive wars / terrorisms proving that all it does is just creating more war/terrorisms. This never solved a problem, it just created different ones.

I really pity both side civilians that are victims from both sides gun nuts.

Ah if only you could just ban in an empty country all the war lovers from this world, to kill each other without disturbing the other people...

Maybe Mars ?

[Ares1978 0]

Heh, you sound like an evangelical Christian!  Just can't wait for that Apocalypse, eh?

Nah, that was my grandmother's way of thinking and she did see the horror of all-out war in her time. As much as I would like to see peace in the Middle East, it's not going to happen.

Daniel @ Aug. 09 2006,17:05)]Yeah, it'd be a good solution if there didn't happen to be civilians and a one sided advantage.  

Civilians will be involved with or without outside involvement. Fights are rarely fair and usually much less destructive if they aren't. Right now we have a war that isn't likely to stop until one side stops making impossible demands or the other is exterminated.

karantan, don't forget cynics.

[Stealth3 0]

Casualties are mountign on both sides. By Israel's count, 61 Israeli soldiers have died in the fighting, along with about 450 Hezbollah fighters.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080701453.html

Israeli Soldiers Find a Tenacious Foe in Hezbollah

By Jonathan Finer

Washington Post Foreign Service

Tuesday, August 8, 2006; A01

KIRYAT SHEMONA, Israel, Aug. 7 --

Late last week while guarding a house in southern Lebanon that Israeli forces were using as a command post, Cpl. Matan Tyler received an unusual order from his commander: Watch out for guys wearing Israeli uniforms.

A day earlier, a nearby regiment had been approached by fighters wearing familiar olive shirts and vests with Hebrew writing, Tyler said he was told. The fighters -- Hezbollah militiamen disguised as Israelis -- opened fire on a house full of Israeli soldiers.

"You really can't underestimate the Hezbollah," said Tyler, 20, a member of the army's Nahal Brigade. "They are the masters of the field. They know the area better than us. They know where to hide and when to move. They always know where we are."

The incident is just one among dozens of examples of an enemy that has proven more resilient and better-equipped than Israeli military forces anticipated.

After nearly four weeks of air attacks and ground combat, Israeli military officials say that they have killed only a small fraction of Hezbollah's fighters and that the group still has hundreds of launchers and thousands of rockets at its disposal.

"What we face is an infantry division with state-of-the-art weaponry -- night-vision gear, advanced rifles, well-equipped -- deployed along our border," said Brig. Gen. Yossi Kuperwasser, who until last month was director of analysis for Israeli military intelligence.

"They have some of the most advanced antitank missiles in the world."

In more than two dozen interviews at army bases, hotels, artillery batteries and staging points for their entry into Lebanon since the heaviest ground fighting began last week, Israeli soldiers expressed confidence in their superiority over Hezbollah, but frustration that they are fighting an elusive enemy as difficult to find as it is to defeat.

"Most of the time we only see them when they want to draw attention to themselves, then they kick us from behind," said Tyler, who was resting with his battalion at a lakefront hotel near Tiberias after a week in southern Lebanon. "It's horrible, yes. You feel -- not weak, but how do you say it, threatened? There is always, always uncertainty."

Several soldiers said they were surprised by how long the operation has taken. When Israelis invaded Lebanon in 1982, they reached to within 10 miles of Beirut in two days. In the current conflict, after more than three weeks of fighting, the heaviest ground combat is still in a string of towns along the border.

"It's so slow and you're just going crazy. You're not really getting very far in there and it's brutally hot just sitting in those houses," said Cpl. David Gross, 22, of Livingston, N.J., who moved to Israel two years ago to join the army.

"Look, we're all smart enough to know it's probably best that they do it this way. Fewer people get killed," he added. "But it's also hard because I don't know if we will ever be able to stop the rocket attacks. You just feel like we'll keep pushing them back and they'll just shoot the rockets farther. Is that frustrating? Yes."

The soldiers described a battlefield littered with booby traps and fortified by fighters who have been preparing to repel a ground invasion since Israeli withdrew from southern Lebanon six years ago, after an 18-year occupation.

Master Sgt. Yusaf, a scout for the army's Baram Brigade who spent 16 years fighting in southern Lebanon during the 1980s and 1990s and who spoke on the condition that only his first name be used, said comparing Hezbollah's capabilities then and now "is like talking about the difference between men who have guns and an army."

Moving at the front of an advancing infantry platoon, he is always on the lookout for traps and hiding places, he said during an interview at a base in Shomera, near the border, hours after leaving a village in southern Lebanon. He described one bunker near the Lebanese town of Maroun al-Ras that was more than 25 feet deep and contained a network of tunnels linking several large storage rooms and multiple entrances and exits. He said it was equipped with a camera at the entrance, linked to a monitor below to help Hezbollah fighters ambush Israeli soldiers.

Israeli soldiers and commanders are quick to point out that Israel is winning by most traditional measures, such as equipment destroyed, territory seized and casualties -- 61 Israeli soldiers have died in the fighting, along with about 450 Hezbollah fighters, by Israel's count. But in comments that echo those of earlier guerrilla conflicts, they also acknowledge that the two sides have different standards of success.

"All they have to do is survive and some people will say they won," one soldier said in a recent interview near the Israeli border town of Avivim.

First Sgt. Dekel Peled, who suffered cuts to his head and hands in a Lebanese village 10 days ago when a mortar shell struck a house in which he was waiting, said he is fighting in a "a war that no one can be mentally prepared for."

He was interviewed at an army-run hotel in Kiryat Shemona this week as he returned to his unit, though he still can't fight because he lost feeling in his trigger finger.

"Some days it seems like it is going to be over tomorrow, and on other days I get the impression it can last another month," he said.

Few said they had experienced sustained firefights. Rather, they said, there were long hours of edgy anticipation, and short bursts of intense combat.

The most feared weapons in Hezbollah's arsenal, they said, are the antitank missiles that have been responsible for dozens of Israeli casualties, blasting through the armor of the most advanced Merkava tanks or at infantry soldiers maneuvering on foot.

Cpl. Eviatar Shalev, 19, described spotting a Hezbollah fighter standing 200 yards away and aiming a shoulder-fired missile at the house where he was posted. "He was already in the firing position, so we called up a combat helicopter," Shalev said. "We entered the inner-most part of the house. We put on all of our defensive gear and we prayed. When you are in there, you can't stop imagining a red spot on your window."

The fighter was killed by an Israeli airstrike before he could shoot the missile, Shalev said in an interview at the hotel in Kiryat Shemona.

Israeli commanders say Hezbollah has obtained its sophisticated weaponry from its main backers, Syria and Iran. "Some have Arabic inscriptions on them, some Iranian, some Russian," said Maj. Gen Udi Adam, commander of Israel's northern forces, in a recent briefing for reporters. "The ones with Russian on them come from Syria," he added.

Several soldiers said they felt the army should be striking harder at Hezbollah but was being held back by concern for civilian casualties.

Lt. Col. Svika Nezer, the commander of an artillery battery a few miles outside Kiryat Shemona, said his unit was operating at about 20 percent of its firepower.

"We could do much, much more. But the orders we get are limited," said Nezer, a reservist who is a lawyer in civilian life.

Among the main challenges facing Israeli soldiers, they say, is that Hezbollah chooses to fight in and among civilian centers, making it difficult to target its fighters without killing bystanders.

Lebanese officials and human rights organizations have criticized Israel for what they term indiscriminate bombing, but commanders say that, if anything, they err on the side of caution when deciding whom to shoot.

"There have been many times when we let go someone whom we knew was a terrorist because we are not sure we could take them down safely," Adam said. "Meanwhile, they try to kill as many of our civilians as they can."

Lt. Itamar Abo, 20, on his way back to the front after a weekend at home in the northern town of Tzfat, said his friends and family grilled him throughout his time off about when the fighting would end and the rocket barrage would stop.

"When a Katyusha falls on somebody's house, it's hard to tell them this is going well. They keep saying, Please get it over with. I don't know what to tell them," he said. "We have to do what we are doing, and I think it is helping, but I also think that no matter what, when this war is over, the threat will still be there, right on our border."

Seated nearby, Cpl. Shai Kaplan, 19, was blunt. "They are experts at deception. Everyone will think they won no matter what. That's how you win when there's a few thousand of you and 50,000 of us," he said. "The more of them we kill, the more of them who are generated. Unfortunately, this is a lost war."

Special correspondent Tal Zipper contributed to this report.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

[Bernadotte 0]

Since you try to avoid it, let me rephrase that question; What does intelligence have to do with holding or not holding a certain view?

Holding the view "that Lebanese civilians are more valuable than Israeli" does not reflect intelligence.  That is my opinion.  Obviously, you are entitled to believe that valuing Lebanese lives more than Israeli lives is an intelligent thing to say.  I happen to disagree.

Most of us here are either intelligent enough not to say exactly what they think, or not intelligent enough to realize what they actually think.

I'll ask again...  Which category are you in?

No, that really is what I'm asking you and judging by your response, I hit the nail on the head with that question. Had somebody answered, I could now use the more specific "certain people", at which point it would be quite reasonable to request that I tell you who these certain people are.

It was NOT a question.  Let me help you:

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>I know people will start whining and make up excuses why the evil Israeli civilians deserve to be killed (blah blah blah stolen land blah blah zionazis blah blah chosen people) and the poor helpless Lebanese don't.</span>

This is a statement, NOT a question.  If you indeed know that people will start whining as you've described then please tell us who you think they are.  On the other hand, if you DON'T actually know who such people are and wish to find out then please ask us with a question.  In English we distinguish a question from a statement by putting a question mark [?] at the end of the sentence.

But tell me what prompted you to choose the anti-Israel stance?

My stance is anti-extremist, not anti-Israel.  I share the views of many Israelis both within Israel and abroad who believe that pursuing a just resolution of the conflict with the Palestinians and with Israel's neighbours is in Israel's best longterm interests.

As a follow-up question, does Israel have the right to eliminate threats to Israeli citizens? Yes or no?

Yes, but in accordance with the treaties it has signed such as the various Geneva Conventions governing war and the obligations of an occupying power.

[Garcia 0]

This is a statement, NOT a question.  If you indeed know that people will start whining as you've described then please tell us who you think they are.  On the other hand, if you DON'T actually know who such people are and wish to find out then please ask us with a question.  In English we distinguish a question from a statement by putting a question mark [?] at the end of the sentence.

Well, you do also have to build up the sentence as a questioning sentence. Not all sentences can be a question with just a questionmark behind it.

Quote[/b] ]I know people will start whining and make up excuses why the evil Israeli civilians deserve to be killed (blah blah blah stolen land blah blah zionazis blah blah chosen people) and the poor helpless Lebanese don't.

And this sentence is one. It's built up to be a fact.

"I know people will start whining and make up excuses why the evil Israeli civilians deserve to be killed (blah blah blah stolen land blah blah zionazis blah blah chosen people) and the poor helpless Lebanese don't?"

The questionmark doesn't really make it a question, do it? So yeah, it's a statement, formed as a fact, not a question...

[Nemesis6 0]

My stance is anti-extremist, not anti-Israel. I share the views of many Israelis both within Israel and abroad who believe that pursuing a just resolution of the conflict with the Palestinians and with Israel's neighbours is in Israel's best longterm interests.

Listen, you are not an anti-extremist. And you share the interests of a minority whom you try to paint as moderates when they are, in fact, as you are, utter lefties. Don't try to whitewash yourself. I belong in the right spectrum of politics, you belong in the extreme left. That's the truth right there.

Tell me, which country have you been criticizing the most, politically and culturally? That would be Israel. Now, what is that that people like, say, the "progressives" at Daily Kos try to do? They like to call themselves "progressives" while they say screw dead troops, victory to the Iraqi resistance, Israel must be eliminated, and generally wallow in antisemitism and hatred of Israel.

[Bernadotte 0]

My stance is anti-extremist, not anti-Israel.  I share the views of many Israelis both within Israel and abroad who believe that pursuing a just resolution of the conflict with the Palestinians and with Israel's neighbours is in Israel's best longterm interests.

Listen, you are not an anti-extremist.

What makes you think that I'm the least bit interested in an opinion about extremism coming from you?

And you share the interests of a minority whom you try to paint as moderates when they are, in fact, as you are, utter lefties.

Which one of us is not to the left of your position?  Ariel Sharon was to the left of where you stand.

Tell me, which country have you been criticizing the most, politically and culturally? That would be Israel.

No, Sri Lanka.  

Please check the thread title.  

They like to call themselves "progressives" while they say screw dead troops...

Really?  I would call them necrophiles.  

[Nemesis6 0]

Sharon made mistakes. Like giving up Gaza in the hope of peace, if that's the reason he did it.

I'm saying you shouldn't try to paint yourself as a moderate, what I am is irrelevant.

And you know that there's more places in the Middle-East than Israel. I've never seen you criticize the low literacy rate in Oman, the extremism that is integral in for example, Jordanian school books, etc.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

This is quite an interesting point of view:

http://heggle.com/item/380557/George_Galloway_PWNING_sky_news

[Nemesis6 0]

Galloway, is, of course, an antisemitic, creepy, and disgusting, HizbAllah-loving person and so is anyone who supports him.

[xawery 0]

My stance is anti-extremist, not anti-Israel. I share the views of many Israelis both within Israel and abroad who believe that pursuing a just resolution of the conflict with the Palestinians and with Israel's neighbours is in Israel's best longterm interests.

Listen, you are not an anti-extremist. And you share the interests of a minority whom you try to paint as moderates when they are, in fact, as you are, utter lefties. Don't try to whitewash yourself. I belong in the right spectrum of politics, you belong in the extreme left. That's the truth right there.

Tell me, which country have you been criticizing the most, politically and culturally? That would be Israel. Now, what is that that people like, say, the "progressives" at Daily Kos try to do? They like to call themselves "progressives" while they say screw dead troops, victory to the Iraqi resistance, Israel must be eliminated, and generally wallow in antisemitism and hatred of Israel.

Hmm, this is the second time I have seen you blatantly discount someone's opinions based on their supposed political affiliation, instead of their arguments (remember the 'pinko' comment?). Come on, let's stick to meritorious discussion, shall we? By analogy, I could call you a right-wing nutcase. I may very well think so about you, but how does such a qualification benefit the discussion? Let's face it: it doesn't.

I think everyone will agree that this discussion should be about the FACTS. Not hearsay, nor ad hominems, but facts. If we conduct this debate by saying "you are to the left/right of me, so clearly you are wrong" then we might as well stop wasting our time.

[EiZei 0]

This is quite an interesting point of view:

http://heggle.com/item/380557/George_Galloway_PWNING_sky_news

Galloway seems to be able to handle himself much better than the syrian ambassador on HARDtalk, the guy just kept stonewalling and making obviously false statements. (the way he started blinking his eyes when he denied Syria giving aid to hezbollah was just mad)

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Galloway, is, of course, an antisemitic, creepy, and disgusting, HizbAllah-loving person and so is anyone who supports him.

What does that make you, if you cannot defend yourself?

[Nemesis6 0]

What do you mean?

[Garcia 0]

I'm saying you shouldn't try to paint yourself as a moderate, what I am is irrelevant.

Quote[/b] ]I belong in the right spectrum of politics, you belong in the extreme left.

So, he is not allowed to "paint himself as a moderate", while you are? Oh, and why is it that you keep moving towards the thinking that goes along the line "fuck you, you're wrong I'm right. You are a leftist, I am totally right in politics..."

Quote[/b] ]And you know that there's more places in the Middle-East than Israel. I've never seen you criticize the low literacy rate in Oman, the extremism that is integral in for example, Jordanian school books, etc.

Hmm...let's think for a bit...who do you criticize? Oh, yes, the ones who oppose Israel...why don't you criticize nations that's not in a constant conflict with Israel?

Or is it the thinking that Bernadotte isn't allowed to "paint himself as a moderate" and not allowed to only criticize one side in a conflict, while you're allowed to do it?