The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

And you know that there's more places in the Middle-East than Israel. I've never seen you criticize the low literacy rate in Oman, the extremism that is integral in for example, Jordanian school books, etc.

As soon as Oman's literacy rate or Jordan's school book extremists are featured in the top 10 news stories each and every day across several decades then perhaps we can start a thread about them too.  I've posted in all 4 Iraqi threads whenever I've had something to say about that crisis.  (Don't miss the war predictions I made just a few days into the conflict.)

I think everyone will agree that this discussion should be about the FACTS. Not hearsay, nor ad hominems, but facts.

I disagree.  

I do not expect that Nemesis6 will ever enter the realm of what we call legitimate discussion - and that's fine with me.  You see, I think it's not only important that people are exposed to the views of the extreme right-wing, but also their means of expressing those views.  Many people will not have the resources to distinguish fact from right-wing propaganda.  I'm hoping that those people will instead decide on the basis of the weak discussion methods employed by the propagandist.  The last thing I would want to do is help a propagandist sound less like a propagandist.

[Nemesis6 0]

I do not expect that Nemesis6 will ever enter the realm of what we call legitimate discussion - and that's fine with me. You see, I think it's not only important that people are exposed to the views of the extreme right-wing, but also their means of expressing those views. Many people will not have the resources to distinguish fact from right-wing propaganda. I'm hoping that those people will instead decide on the basis of the weak discussion methods employed by the propagandist. The last thing I would want to do is help a propagandist sound less like a propagandist.

Wow, trying to get up on that high horse again, huh? Can't if there's no sadle, or at least it's pretty hard without it. You're not moderate/anti-extremism, and I'm not an extreme rightist. Nothing you say is gonna change that. Not even you trying to make ME look look like one without any proof on which to base your allegations.

[Stealth3 0]

Guys, chill. We should talk about tactics, weapons, blunders, etc. Not grammar and whos left sided and whos right sided.

[Bernadotte 0]

Nothing you say is gonna change that.

I'll be very surprised if you ever believe how much I want you to stay exactly the way you are.    

(...or if you even understand that last sentence.    )

[Stealth3 0]

I heard that the faggot, saggot, and RPG29 are the most effective weapons used by the guerilla. You guys heard anything about it?

[EiZei 0]

I do not expect that Nemesis6 will ever enter the realm of what we call legitimate discussion - and that's fine with me.  You see, I think it's not only important that people are exposed to the views of the extreme right-wing, but also their means of expressing those views.  Many people will not have the resources to distinguish fact from right-wing propaganda.  I'm hoping that those people will instead decide on the basis of the weak discussion methods employed by the propagandist.  The last thing I would want to do is help a propagandist sound less like a propagandist.

Wow, trying to get up on that high horse again, huh? Can't if there's no sadle, or at least it's pretty hard without it. You're not moderate/anti-extremism, and I'm not an extreme rightist. Nothing you say is gonna change that. Not even you trying to make ME look look like one without any proof on which to base your allegations.

Damn, I really don't want to see what is your idea of an pro-israel extremist on this issue.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

What do you mean?

prove him wrong

[Ares1978 0]

Holding the view "that Lebanese civilians are more valuable than Israeli" does not reflect intelligence.  That is my opinion.  Obviously, you are entitled to believe that valuing Lebanese lives more than Israeli lives is an intelligent thing to say.  I happen to disagree.

What it reflects is irrelevant, since it is just the reader's opinion. Am I to assume that it is in your opinion intelligent to only say things that other people agree on?

Quote[/b] ]It was NOT a question.  Let me help you:

This is a statement, NOT a question.  If you indeed know that people will start whining as you've described then please tell us who you think they are.  On the other hand, if you DON'T actually know who such people are and wish to find out then please ask us with a question.  In English we distinguish a question from a statement by putting a question mark [?] at the end of the sentence.

Get your head out of your ass already. The question I was referring to was "Doesn't anybody here have the balls to say straight out that they think that Lebanese civilians are more valuable than Israeli?" and you know it.

Quote[/b] ]My stance is anti-extremist, not anti-Israel.  I share the views of many Israelis both within Israel and abroad who believe that pursuing a just resolution of the conflict with the Palestinians and with Israel's neighbours is in Israel's best longterm interests.

That may be your official version, but from where I'm standing, you are anti-Israel as well as an extremist. Worse than that, you are still defending the extremist with nonsense claims of exaggerated use of force on the Israeli side.

Quote[/b] ]

Yes, but in accordance with the treaties it has signed such as the various Geneva Conventions governing war and the obligations of an occupying power.

In this case it's a matter of choosing either to defend their citizens or follow the letter (not the spirit) of a practically meaningless treaty. It's not a reasonable demand.

[xawery 0]

In this case it's a matter of choosing either to defend their citizens or follow the letter (not the spirit) of a practically meaningless treaty. It's not a reasonable demand.

Funny, I never associated defensive operations with invading a sovereign country... But then again, invading Iraq was a defensive operation too. Tell me, what are they defending their civilians from? The rocket attacks only began AFTER the invasion.

I am also very much interested where you got the idea from that someone here considers Lebanese lives more important than Israeli ones. If you give it a little thought, I think you will find that most people here are critical of Israel's actions, because the death ratio of Isreali civilians to Lebanese civilians is 1:20. What is more, the Israeli's are being killed by a fanatical religious militia. Lebanese civilians are being killed by the military arm of a democratic, modern state. I think the difference is clear...

[Bernadotte 0]

Get your head out of your ass already.  The question I was referring to was "Doesn't anybody here have the balls to say straight out that they think that Lebanese civilians are more valuable than Israeli?" and you know it.

Pleae check the record.  I've been asking you to identify the "people" you referred to in a statement you made on this page and NOT a question you asked back on this page... and you know it.

...from where I'm standing, you are anti-Israel as well as an extremist. Worse than that, you are still defending the extremist with nonsense claims of exaggerated use of force on the Israeli side.

That's it?  That's the best argument you can offer for why you believe I hold views exactly the opposite of what I stated?  No quotes?  No links?  No evidence?

I'm not a mind reader

Nope, obviously not.

[kakagoegie 0]

The Israeli music industry has also started to take part in the conflict. Music video.

Propaganda or just a good laugh, judge for yourself.

I'm going for the good laugh

[Nathan Bedford Forrest 0]

Allllltogether now!

YALLAH YALLAH YALLAH

[Nemesis6 0]

Israeli dance? Check this out -

Heh, breakdancing rules.

The Israeli porn industry had this initiative to get consumers to buy Israeli-made porn during the Intifada, too, like, for example, they'd have a picture of a naked girl and on her you-know-what, they would put this "Kachol v lavan" logo, means blue and white, the colours of the Israeli flag. Porn for patriots I guess!

[Stealth3 0]

Israel seems confused.

First, Adam was dismissed because they didn't like the handling of the war.

Then they announce an expansion of the conflict. That was announced yesterday.

Now we get this:

Quote[/b] ]Israel stopping offensive until weekend

By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer

Quote:

JERUSALEM -

Israel will hold back on its new ground offensive in Lebanon until the weekend to give cease-fire efforts another chance, senior officials said Thursday, a day after the government approved a major expansion of the monthlong war.

But prospects for a quick cease-fire resolution by the

U.N. Security Council were uncertain, with the United States and France still divided over a timetable for an Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

Israeli missiles hit Beirut proper for the first time, damaging a historic lighthouse. Warplanes also dropped leaflets over downtown Beirut, urging residents of three southern suburbs to leave the area. More leaflets were scattered over northern Lebanon, warning trucks off a coastal road linking Lebanon to

Syria.

Hezbollah claimed it destroyed 13 Israeli tanks in south Lebanon. The Israeli military declined comment. On Wednesday, 15 Israeli soldiers were killed in Lebanon, the deadliest day for Israeli soldiers in the war.

Hezbollah rockets killed a woman and her young daughter, a toddler, in the Israeli Arab village of Deir el Assad, medics said.

The deeper push into Lebanon was approved Wednesday by Israel's Security Cabinet, but a senior government official said Thursday that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has decided to delay the offensive until the weekend.

The campaign could begin earlier if Hezbollah launches a major attack on Israel, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to discuss the issue with reporters.

Cabinet minister Rafi Eitan confirmed the government's decision to wait.

"There are diplomatic considerations," he told Israel Radio, when asked about a planned delay. "There is still a chance that an international force will arrive in the area. We have no interest in being in south Lebanon. We have an interest in peace on our borders."

The government's conduct of the war was coming under growing criticism at home.

The army has failed to make a dent in Hezbollah's ability to fire rockets at Israel — the guerrillas fired 170 on Wednesday, for a war total of more than 3,500 — and critics said pushing deeper into Lebanon would not stop such attacks since longer-range rockets can still reach Israel.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported an angry exchange between Defense Minister Amir Peretz and his predecessor, Shaul Mofaz, in the Security Cabinet meeting. When Mofaz criticized plans for the new offensive, Peretz reportedly shot back: "Where were you when Hezbollah built up this array (of weapons)?"

Secretary of State

Condoleezza Rice called during the meeting, officials said, and Olmert told ministers after his half-hour conversation with her that the offensive would be accompanied by a new diplomatic push.

Under the army plan, Israeli forces would move to the Litani River, some 20 miles from the Israel-Lebanon border. At the moment, more than 10,000 troops are engaged in house-to-house battles against Hezbollah fighters in a strip less than half that size.

Even in the current war zone, Israeli troops have had trouble taking control of towns and villages. Security officials say the guerrillas' bunkers, well equipped with food, weapons and electricity, are a reason for Hezbollah's stamina. During lulls in the fighting, gunmen emerge and set up new ambushes for troops.

The U.N.'s top humanitarian official criticized Israel and Hezbollah for hindering aid agencies' access to trapped civilians in southern Lebanon.

"The Hezbollah and the Israelis could give us access in a heartbeat," Jan Egeland said in Geneva. "Then we could help 120,000 people in southern Lebanon. I don't think that any military advantage has been gained in these last days or will be gained in the next few hours."

The Red Cross asked the Israeli rescue service to help lobby the Israeli government to allow more aid supplies into Lebanon, said Paul Conneally, deputy head of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Israel.

On Thursday, troops backed by tanks and armored vehicles took up positions on the outskirts of the Christian town of Marjayoun in south Lebanon, about six miles from the border. Troops met no resistance. Soldiers also moved to a nearby hill overlooking the Litani River Valley, witnesses said. Heavy battles were reported in south Lebanese villages across from Israel's Galilee panhandle, hard hit by rockets.

Israel hopes an expanded offensive will force Hezbollah guerrillas out of their strongholds across southern Lebanon. The offensive is expected to last a month and eliminate 70 percent to 80 percent of Hezbollah's short-range rocket launchers, but not its long-range launchers, senior military officials said.

However, Trade Minister Eli Yishai, who abstained in Wednesday's vote, said the assessment is too optimistic, saying he thought it would take "a lot longer."

Danny Yatom, a senior member of Peretz' Labor Party and a general in the reserves, said moving deeper into Lebanon was pointless.

"We are banging our head against the wall," he told Israel TV's Channel One. "And even if we reach the Litani, the Katyushas (rockets) won't stop.

So far, the fighting has killed 711 people on the Lebanese side and 120 Israelis, including 38 civilians and 82 soldiers.

The economic price was also going up. Finance Minister Avraham Hirchson said the war has cost Israel some $1.6 billion so far. He said he will ask the government to cut $650 million from the 2006 state budget to help pay for the war. Israel's total budget for 2006 is $56 billion.

The prospect of a wider war would put tremendous pressure on the

United Nations to rapidly agree on a cease-fire. The fighting has caused widespread destruction across southern Lebanon and forced hundreds of thousands of Israelis to flee or take refuge in bomb shelters.

However, France and the U.S. remained divided over a proposed truce resolution, particularly at whether Israeli troops would be able to stay in south Lebanon until they can hand over to a multinational force. French

President Jacques Chirac appealed for rapid agreement.

In a televised speech Wednesday night, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the Hezbollah chief, rejected as "unfair and unjust" a draft U.N. resolution that would temporarily let Israeli troops remain in south Lebanon and take defensive action.

"It has given Israel more than it wanted and more than it was looking for," he said.

The Israeli government's decision came two days after Lebanon offered to send 15,000 soldiers to patrol the border region, a key Israeli demand intended to prevent future attacks on Israel. The current fighting began when Hezbollah fighters raided Israel July 12, killed three soldiers and captured two others.

In a major shift, Nasrallah said Hezbollah supported an army deployment, after a cease-fire is declared and Israel leaves.

Israeli officials remained skeptical of the Lebanese offer and were not convinced Lebanon's army would take concrete action to stop future Hezbollah attacks.

"It is important that the Lebanese army will be accompanied by an international force that will enable it to reach the south in an organized manner, and to leave the place clean of Hezbollah," Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said.

This is wierd "Were going to push the enemy back to the river" A few hours later "We changed plans, we should give diplomacy a try"

Why the hell didn't they give diplomacy a try in the beginning?

[karantan 0]

Allllltogether now!

YALLAH YALLAH YALLAH

ALAH, ALAH, ALAH ?

[billybob2002 0]

I suggest people go to youtube.com and search for "Green Helmet acting as cynical movie director in qana." I can't post a direct link because it violates forum rules (then why i'm giving directions?) but it is revelant to media manipulation because the video clip shows the worse kind of manipulation that one can do. The clip isn't Israeli media manipulation but Lebanese.

I heard that the faggot, saggot, and RPG29 are the most effective weapons used by the guerilla.  You guys heard anything about it?

I thought Hezbollah are using Metis-M, confirmed to be used by Hezbollah, and Kornet atgms too with some success?

[deanosbeano 0]

....... and I'm not an extreme rightist. Nothing you say is gonna change that. Not even you trying to make ME look look like one without any proof on which to base your allegations.

phonix was right (excuse the pun) you really are funny.

[Nemesis6 0]

You've got a bad sense of humor, deanosbeano.

That green helmet guy is pretty interesting. He did it 10 years ago, too, and now he's back, going from village to village/city to city to pose dead corpses for photographers like, oh I don't know, Reuters and AP? By the way, his name is Abdel Qader.

[scary 0]

"I don't think Israel is really 'bombing' Lebanon, I think it's faulty construction that's causing these buildings to fall"    

I wonder if those people laughing also found 9/11 funny?

I did like this comment though:

Quote[/b] ]My dad only watches fox news and listens to am talk radio.

Now I know why he's such a complete asshole.

[*Pete* 0]

If you give it a little thought, I think you will find that most people here are critical of Israel's actions, because the death ratio of Isreali civilians to Lebanese civilians is 1:20. What is more, the Israeli's are being killed by a fanatical religious militia. Lebanese civilians are being killed by the military arm of a democratic, modern state. I think the difference is clear...

not to forget, that the "fanatical religious militia" kidnapped 2 SOLDIERS, not civilians.

also they manage to kill 3 Soldiers for each civilian they kill.

it is unknown what losses hezbollah has so far, but it is clear that it is far more civilian deaths that military deaths for the lebanese.

I hate to admit, but i really am starting to respect Hezbollah soldiers for the professionality they show in this war.

even if they are few by numbers, they still manage to stop the 4:th strongest army in the world, impressive.

for those who said earlier that Israel warns the people before they bomb the villages, and that hezbollah doesnt...it is not true, hezbollah has warned israel very early on what they would do with the rockets they have...so they are in my opinion the same good/bad in that aspect.

btw, does anyone know why israel decided to arrest 350 lebanese soldiers and police??

[Nemesis6 0]

Why do you think HizbAllah warns Israel? I haven't heard a single instance of Nasrallah going on the air saying, in Hebrew, that at X'o clock, the city of X will be bombed. We advise all citizens in the city of X to go to Y.

[Stealth3 0]

No you don't, stop kidding yourself.

The IDF drops leaflets with propaganda blaming Hezbolah, and warnings such as:

Leave immediately, the place will be bombed soon. Oh, but the roads are destroyed making traveling VERY VERY hard. And also, as of a few days ago all vehicles in South Lebanon will be bombed. Making warnings useless as people can't leave anyway.

And then there are the people that are too old and poor to leave.

So even if you wanted the leave the only choice will be to leave on foot. And that is very dangerous, who knows if the IDF will accidently drop a bomb on top of you.

Read this:

Quote[/b] ]UN attacks Lebanon aid 'disgrace'

Agencies are looking for ways to get supplies into southern Lebanon

The UN's top humanitarian official has criticised Israel and Hezbollah for hindering access to southern Lebanon, calling the situation a "disgrace".

Jan Egeland said both sides could give aid agencies access in a "heartbeat". Hospitals in south Lebanon are also said to be low on food and fuel.

The warning came amid more violence across the Israel-Lebanon border.

Two Israeli Arabs were killed in Hezbollah rocket fire, while Israeli air strikes killed two Lebanese.

An Israeli soldier was also killed in fighting in southern Lebanon.

Israeli planes also dropped leaflets on southern Beirut, warning residents of three districts to leave immediately.

More than 1,000 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have now been killed in the hostilities, the Lebanese government has said. Some 122 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also been killed.

'Under siege'

Speaking at UN offices in Geneva, Switzerland, Mr Egeland said Israel and Hezbollah were preventing relief workers from saving people's lives.

Mid-East crisis: Key maps

Nasrallah rallies support

"It is a disgrace really. We have not had any access for many days to the besieged population of southern Lebanon," he said.

The UN's World Food Programme (WFP) also called on both sides to allow humanitarian aid through.

"Our aid operation is like a patient starved of oxygen facing paralysis, verging on death " said Zlatan Milisic, WFP emergency co-ordinator in Lebanon.

Mr Milisic said about 100,000 people were stranded south of the Litani River.

WFP spokeswoman Christiane Berthiaume said relief supplies reached the coastal city of Sidon on Wednesday but the Israeli Defense Forces had not granted permission for a convoy to go to Nabatiyeh, north of the river.

Medical aid agency Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) has meanwhile warned that hospitals in south Lebanon are running out of food, fuel and medical supplies.

As the humanitarian crisis deepened, violence between Hezbollah and Israel showed no sign of easing.

Among the main developments:

* Israeli forces said they had taken control of the strategically placed town of Marjayoun - a mostly Christian town about 8km (five miles) from the border

* Hezbollah reported destroying at least 13 tanks in south Lebanon

* Israel fired about 1,000 artillery shells at the Hezbollah stronghold of Khiam, with ground battles also reported in the area

* Israeli rocketed a disused lighthouse tower carrying a television mast in west Beirut

The red cross can barely travel, what makes you think the average joe civilian can?

[Garcia 0]

"I don't think Israel is really 'bombing' Lebanon, I think it's faulty construction that's causing these buildings to fall"    

I wonder if those people laughing also found 9/11 funny?

I did like this comment though:

Quote[/b] ]My dad only watches fox news and listens to am talk radio.

Now I know why he's such a complete asshole.

Now that was a good one I wonder if that guy really belives what he said...if so, he's a complete idiot. All of a sudden, in the middle of a conflict with Israel, where Israel themself says they're bombing Lebanon, shitloads of buildings suddenly falls over because of bad construction?

It's like saying the 9/11 was bad construction...the towers had just stayed up for some years, and then somehow people and videocameras imagined airplanes smashing into the towers...and then they just fell...veeeeery likely

[Bernadotte 0]

...the video clip shows the worse kind of manipulation that one can do.

You've never encountered a worse kind than that?  Consider yourself lucky.

[armandobronca 0]

"I don't think Israel is really 'bombing' Lebanon, I think it's faulty construction that's causing these buildings to fall"

I wonder if those people laughing also found 9/11 funny?

I did like this comment though:

Quote[/b] ]My dad only watches fox news and listens to am talk radio.

Now I know why he's such a complete asshole.

Sad

PS: Y yo que pensaba que el salsa rosa y el aqui hay tomate eran lo peor del mundo